More ACC issues...now Virginia

[CL82]

Unfortunately I don't think we get to throw stones and point fingers in this situation. In the Rolling Stone article you may have noticed this line "The University of Virginia is one of the 86 schools now under federal investigation, but it has more reason to worry than most of its peers." Yup you guessed it, UConn is one of those other schools. Might not be as serious a situation as UVA, but its nothing to gloss over either.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...a74810-d13b-11e3-937f-d3026234b51c_story.html

Also, in May UConn paid $1.3 million to settle a lawsuit with 5 women who claimed the school did not take their claims of s e xual assault seriously.

"The bulk of the settlement, $900,000, will go to Silvana Moccia, a former UConn hockey player who joined the Title IX lawsuit last December, a month after it was originally filed by four other women. She alleged she was kicked off the team after reporting she had been raped by a male hockey player in August 2011." http://connecticut.cbslocal.com/2014/07/18/settlement-in-title-ix-lawsuit-against-uconn/

This was before anyone cared about the men's hockey team. They weren't covering it up to protect a star athlete, but covering it up because that's apparently what universities do.

The rape described in the Rolling Stone article was horrific, but just because we haven't heard of a similar crime (Kavanaughed) being committed at UConn doesn't mean the same overall issue doesn't exist here. What boggles my mind is how universities in general attempt to portray their campuses as safe by minimizing these crimes instead of trying to actually make their campus safe by removing s e xual predators. I think the one thing UConn has going for it is that the fraternity culture is not as strong as it is at many southern or elite schools.

I don't want you to think I am picking on you specifically. I have not seen anyone really mention our own problems in this thread. I read the RS article yesterday and was completely disgusted. One of my first thoughts after reading was if UConn is also being investigated I wonder what terrible things have happened on our campus.

The UConn lawsuit was quesitonable due the inclusion of the woman who stated the new husky trademark promoted rape and another woman whose chief complaint was that university would alone her to unilaterally and anonomously punish a guy in her apartment complex. Note that she didn't claim that she was assaulted in anyway and in fact had no contact with the guy at all. She was given the opportunity to make a police report, or an internal university complaint but refused to do either. She just wanted to dictate a punishment. That's two of the original four plaintiffs. I strongly suspect that you don't taint an otherwise reasonable case with those kinds of claims. Their inclusion speaks volumes to me. I'm not familiar with the 5th plaintiff you listed. I'm glad that she received the lions share of the settlement if she had a legitmate claim.

I will respectfully offer that comparing this case to what happened at UVA is not legitimate. That is a profoundly hostile attitude toward women that does not exist at UConn. I also respectfully suggest that the "well it happens everywhere" assertion starts to come close to the "boys will be boys defense." The attitude and culture toward women at UVA is, in my opinion, reprehensible and needs to be torn out at the roots. I believe that process has begun.

 

[CL82]

During my time at UConn it had a bad reputation for rapes (mid 80's). This wasn't what happened at UVA or even student on student, but was because campus was dark, spread out and potential rapists had places to ambush co-eds. While living in Frats/Northwest, the girls in the dorm who were in cars late (we parked way up at T-lot) would come by the dorm, get one of us guys, and we'd walk them back to the dorm. The lighting on campus sucked then and they didn't have those nice emergency call boxes they have now.

Agree with Penfield, that the frat culture seems to be at least part of the problem for what happened at UVA. As the father of a "tween" daughter, I certainly worry about these things.

In my dorm (Wheeler) we made it a point to walk with one of the girls if they had to go somewhere at night. I've done the same at every other school I've attended. Women should not be walking alone on pretty much any campus, in my opinion. On quite a few guys shouldn't either.

 

[upstater]

I would hope not also. I think part of the issue at UVA was the strong fraternity culture, but really other than that I don't know what would make the schools that different. These types of incidents could happen anywhere.

Besides the Kavanaughed, the reactions of her friends are hard to fathom. You can't paint all students at UVA as being similar to her friends. It's just not how it works on college campuses these days. So you can assume she chose a set of friends that had preconceived ideas about the frat culture at UVA, which speaks to the entire scene there if even so-called friends could react in such a way. Then there's the question of rich privlege that goes through the story. CalArts is having a similar scandal (not because of a gang-rape) because the accused man is the son of a rich Hollywood benefactor. The woman in that case is not isolated like the UVA girl appears to be, she has a lot of support, but not from the administration.

I guess I'm just saying that the article describes a UVA campus that's entirely diffident to the crisis of rape going on. I'm certain though that you will have a big chunk of students there who could have provided this woman with more support.

 

[upstater]

The UConn lawsuit was quesitonable due the inclusion of the woman who stated the new husky trademark promoted rape and another woman whose chief complaint was that university would alone her to unilaterally and anonomously punish a guy in her apartment complex. Note that she didn't claim that she was assaulted in anyway and in fact had no contact with the guy at all. She was given the opportunity to make a police report, or an internal university complaint but refused to do either. She just wanted to dictate a punishment. That's two of the original four plaintiffs. I strongly suspect that you don't taint an otherwise reasonable case with those kinds of claims. Their inclusion speaks volumes to me. I'm not familiar with the 5th plaintiff you listed. I'm glad that she received the lions share of the settlement if she had a legitmate claim.

I will respectfully offer that comparing this case to what happened at UVA is not legitimate. That is a profoundly hostile attitude toward women that does not exist at UConn. I also respectfully suggest that the "well it happens everywhere" assertion starts to come close to the "boys will be boys defense." The attitude and culture toward women at UVA is, in my opinion, reprehensible and needs to be torn out at the roots. I believe that process has begun.

That woman you cite had an earlier sexual assault claim. One might allow that her reaction to any trademark and such was influenced by experience.

But what about the administration's lack of action over the professor who raped kids at summer camp on UConn's campus?

This really does go on everywhere, including at UConn. The gang-rape here is something beyond. Bizarre. So brazen that these chumps would think it was all alright. The RS article points out however that the vast majority of rapes on campus are not date rape. Date rape seems to be a space where the alleged victim's behavior comes into play. But when it's rape by strangers, we can't make the same assumptions.

 

[Penfield]

The UConn lawsuit was quesitonable due the inclusion of the woman who stated the new husky trademark promoted rape and another woman whose chief complaint was that university would alone her to unilaterally and anonomously punish a guy in her apartment complex. Note that she didn't claim that she was assaulted in anyway and in fact had no contact with the guy at all. She was given the opportunity to make a police report, or an internal university complaint but refused to do either. She just wanted to dictate a punishment. That's two of the original four plaintiffs. I strongly suspect that you don't taint an otherwise reasonable case with those kinds of claims. Their inclusion speaks volumes to me. I'm not familiar with the 5th plaintiff you listed. I'm glad that she received the lions share of the settlement if she had a legitmate claim.

I will respectfully offer that comparing this case to what happened at UVA is not legitimate. That is a profoundly hostile attitude toward women that does not exist at UConn. I also respectfully suggest that the "well it happens everywhere" assertion starts to come close to the "boys will be boys defense." The attitude and culture toward women at UVA is, in my opinion, reprehensible and needs to be torn out at the roots. I believe that process has begun.

All I was trying to say is that this issue is bigger than UVA. I suspect that you could pick the name of almost any large institution out of a hat and write a similar article. I am not talking about the actual crimes, but how sexual assaults are swept under the rug and women who claim to have been assaulted are not taken seriously. This attitude and culture was particularly bad at UVA, but sadly it's not the only place this happens. The culture needs to be stopped (at UVA this probably means shutting down the frats for longer than just a month or two), but we as a society need to stop allowing these crimes to go unpunished. We need to make sure young men know that this is not acceptable behavior, but those that don't get the message need to be held responsible. Everyone needs to take this issue more seriously.

And look I'm sorry but UConn is being investigated for a reason.

 

[CL82]

That woman you cite had an earlier s e xual assault claim. One might allow that her reaction to any trademark and such was influenced by experience.

Maybe, but her claim is her not based on a sexual assault. It is based on her being mocked after publishing an absolutely idiotic statement. No one made her do that and the reaction was predictable and not actionable.

But what about the administration's lack of action over the professor who raped kids at summer camp on UConn's campus?

It's been a while since I read about that and I'd have to look at it again to have a valid opinion, but it's not included in the referenced lawsuit.

I'm not a huge fan of the term "date rape." It seems to blur lines a bit. Sex is consented to or it isn't. Note that the "date rapist" may have a defense of consent, or percieved consent, but rape is rape.

The larger point is that there seems to a very rape friendly culture a UVA, from the adminstration's reactions to the victim's "friends" reaction (sickening, in my view) and that damn song which seems to glorify the objectification of women (at it's best interpretation) or glorify sexual assault (at it's worst interpretation.) Yes crime happens everwhere, but UVA seems to have taken acceptance of sexual assault as a part of it's culture.

 

[CL82]

All I was trying to say is that this issue is bigger than UVA. I suspect that you could pick the name of almost any large institution out of a hat and write a similar article. I am not talking about the actual crimes, but how s e xual assaults are swept under the rug and women who claim to have been assaulted are not taken seriously. This attitude and culture was particularly bad at UVA, but sadly it's not the only place this happens. The culture needs to be stopped (at UVA this probably means shutting down the frats for longer than just a month or two), but we as a society need to stop allowing these crimes to go unpunished. We need to make sure young men know that this is not acceptable behavior, but those that don't get the message need to be held responsible. Everyone needs to take this issue more seriously.

And look I'm sorry but UConn is being investigated for a reason.

Pen, I'm going to disagree that conditions a UVA are the norm. The culture there is really bad and desserves to be called out as that.

The lawsuit you listed is what it is. Google it and read it. I'm sure there are assaults at UConn and at pretty much any college campus of similar size but equating it with culture at UVA isn't valid in my view and it minimizes just how bad the circumstance there are.

 

[Penfield]

Pen, I'm going to disagree that conditions a UVA are the norm. The culture there is really bad and desserves to be called out as that.

The lawsuit you listed is what it is. Google it and read it. I'm sure there are assaults at UConn and at pretty much any college campus of similar size but equating it with culture at UVA isn't valid in my view and it minimizes just how bad the circumstance there are.

I'm not trying to say the conditions at UVA are the norm, and I would hope most schools are not like that. I'm also going to back off any comparisons to UConn because I think it's getting in the way of a discussion on the actual issues. I will agree with you that in general I do not think the culture at UConn is similar to UVA. I have read about the UConn lawsuit and that's the last I will say about. We don't agree.

All that being said I have a funny feeling that the "Frat Culture" that existed at UVA probably exists at other schools. Maybe its not as bad, but its probably what most of us would consider not ok. Just look at some of the other examples from the RS article.

"like a University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee frat accused of using color-coded hand stamps as a signal to roofie their guests, and this fall's suspension of Brown University's chapter of Phi Kappa Psi – of all fraternities – after a partygoer tested positive for the date-rape drug GHB"

"a Dartmouth student's how-to-rape guide posted online this past January; Yale pledges chanting "No means yes! Yes means anal!" "

UVA certainly needs to clean up its act, but lets look at the bigger picture too. I don't think the only point of the article was to say "Look how bad it is at UVA", but also our society needs to stop blaming women for this stuff and actually punish the guys that commit the crimes. I will say again that there are two major issues here. First is that men continue to assault women. The second is that the guys that do this are not punished.

 

[CL82]

I'm not trying to say the conditions at UVA are the norm, and I would hope most schools are not like that. I'm also going to back off any comparisons to UConn because I think it's getting in the way of a discussion on the actual issues. I will agree with you that in general I do not think the culture at UConn is similar to UVA. I have read about the UConn lawsuit and that's the last I will say about. We don't agree.

All that being said I have a funny feeling that the "Frat Culture" that existed at UVA probably exists at other schools. Maybe its not as bad, but its probably what most of us would consider not ok. Just look at some of the other examples from the RS article.

"like a University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee frat accused of using color-coded hand stamps as a signal to roofie their guests, and this fall's suspension of Brown University's chapter of Phi Kappa Psi – of all fraternities – after a partygoer tested positive for the date-rape drug GHB"

"a Dartmouth student's how-to-rape guide posted online this past January; Yale pledges chanting "No means yes! Yes means anal!" "

UVA certainly needs to clean up its act, but lets look at the bigger picture too. I don't think the only point of the article was to say "Look how bad it is at UVA", but also our society needs to stop blaming women for this stuff and actually punish the guys that commit the crimes. I will say again that there are two major issues here. First is that men continue to assault women. The second is that the guys that do this are not punished.

Okay we agree to disagree on the lawsuit. I suggest that you read the complaint itself rather read about it. I did and that's the basis for my opinion.

Believe me, I understand that you are not condoning what happened at UVA. Also believe me when I say that I agree that UVA isn't the only place that sexual assaults happen. It think we are in agreement on those points. Sometimes though, something is so outside of societal norms it needs to be singled out and dealt with. The UVA culture is one of those things in my opinion. I think that saying "well it's happening everywhere look some idiots chanted at Yale" is a distraction but that's tactical not strategic. We both have same goals.

 

[Penfield]

@CL82 I do think we agree on a lot of things. Call my a cynic, but deep down I just don't know if the situation at UVA is that unique. I truly hope it is. If not I hope other schools across the country see whats happening there and reconsider how they handle these situations - whether it involves frat boys, basketball players, football players, or professors.

 

[Da_Aisijimo_Gou]

But what about the administration's lack of action over the professor who raped kids at summer camp on UConn's campus?

To inject some facts, UCONN absolutely dropped the ball for too long with the professor you reference. The freak professor was never accused of raping kids at a summer camp on the campus. Sadly, the rapes of kids occurred in the 1990s at a summer camp in a nearby town. However, freaky professor allegedly engaged in inappropriate activities with some UCONN students on campus before quickly retiring in advance of an overdue administration investigation. Finally, administration officials involved campus police, the state Attorney General's office, and an external law firm and booted the freak.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

During my time at UConn it had a bad reputation for rapes (mid 80's). This wasn't what happened at UVA or even student on student, but was because campus was dark, spread out and potential rapists had places to ambush co-eds. While living in Frats/Northwest, the girls in the dorm who were in cars late (we parked way up at T-lot) would come by the dorm, get one of us guys, and we'd walk them back to the dorm. The lighting on campus sucked then and they didn't have those nice emergency call boxes they have now.

I think the cultural view of rape across the US is an issue and not just at UConn and UVA. At UConn, thankfully, it seems to be isolated events that the administration did not handle well. At UVA, the trouble is that it seems to be an entire 'system' built around Greek life where the university care more about its image than the victims and doing what's right morally and legally. That course of action did not work well for the Catholic Church in the end and will not for UVA either. Hell, the UVA men's choir has songs about it, which in and of itself should have raised flags about the issue years ago. If this is as widespread as the Rolling Stone indicated, UVA may need every bit of that $6.4 billion endowment of theirs.

I went to UConn in the early '90 and while it was a safe campus compared to a university located in an urban area, it's rural setting can be an issue. I think a lot had to do with the fact that it was a 'commuter' school with mostly CT students through the mid 90's when the combination of UConn basketball fame, UConn 2000, and skyrocketing prices at private Universities change it's public perception. before than, who needs good lighting on campus when over half the campus goes home on weekends? I went to a lot of parties at Carriage House and Celeron and took the Celeron trail, i.e. 'Rape Trail,' back many times. I ran into individual girls and pairs periodically on the trail late and even in my drunk state, felt uneasy for them (I never did for myself primarily because I spent my high school summer on a lake in way upstate NY and waking back to my camp from a in the woods party in the pitch black was common practice). If they did ask for company, I would walk several yards in front of them so that they could see me at all times and only drew close if we crossed any men, usually a group of loud drunks. Once I got them back to Frats or the Jungle, she/they would say thanks and I would head off. I did this because while the threat was low in my opinion, it was the right thing to do.

 

[pj]

The culture is more hostile to rape in the US today than it's ever been in any society anywhere. But a cultural view will never eliminate the supply of perverts and criminals. It's possible that one reason the culture has grown more hostile to rape is that we have more rapists than we used to, and people are angry over it.

 

[Kolumbo]

Every day there are news stories which are just so hard to understand. This story has been on my mind for two days now. It is so disturbing. The attack went on for three hours! How is this fraternity house still standing? If UVA won't demolish it, somebody should. If my 18 year old daughter endured that attack, I honestly don't know what I would do. A Time To Kill comes to mind.

 

[upstater]

This UVa prof seems to think that people higher up the food chain at UVa are the problem: http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_facto...surprising_to_one_associate.html?wpsrc=fol_fb

Not the woman singled out in the RS article.

I'd point out that while this stuff might be more prevalent in frats, or maybe among athletes, a school like CalArts is having a similar problem right now. A rich kid in its film school (son of a big Hollywood guy) is accused of rape, and the administration is not doing a good job.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

The culture is more hostile to rape in the US today than it's ever been in any society anywhere. But a cultural view will never eliminate the supply of perverts and criminals. It's possible that one reason the culture has grown more hostile to rape is that we have more rapists than we used to, and people are angry over it.

I am not sure about that. I think rape gets a lot more publicity now that it did years ago versus years ago when most s ex crimes were handled outside of the press and courts. For example, I am certain that what has been exposed over the last decade in the Catholic Church has been going on for a long, long, time. Also, it was not long ago, say 150 years, many marriages were arranged, women had almost no legal rights, and if a man raped a woman and got her pregnant, the an would have to marry her (driven by the Church of course), which I am sure was not a good idea. The county has a whole has a lot farther to go on this issue; but, it has been and could be worse.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

Besides the Kavanaughed, the reactions of her friends are hard to fathom. You can't paint all students at UVA as being similar to her friends. It's just not how it works on college campuses these days. So you can assume she chose a set of friends that had preconceived ideas about the frat culture at UVA, which speaks to the entire scene there if even so-called friends could react in such a way. Then there's the question of rich privlege that goes through the story. CalArts is having a similar scandal (not because of a gang-rape) because the accused man is the son of a rich Hollywood benefactor. The woman in that case is not isolated like the UVA girl appears to be, she has a lot of support, but not from the administration.

I guess I'm just saying that the article describes a UVA campus that's entirely diffident to the crisis of rape going on. I'm certain though that you will have a big chunk of students there who could have provided this woman with more support.

I think one issue within UVA is that the school has a long history with Greek Life and many of its biggest donors and names partcapted in it. Woodrow Wilson was in the same frat, Phi Kappa Psi, involved in the Rolling Stone instigation. Like any other university (or corporation in general), it is driven by money and I am sure that UVA administration is worried that any curtailment or bad press on it's Greek Life will reduce donations from these folks. Thus, the issue was brushed under the rug until now.

 

[ZooCougar]

Why is this an ACC thread? I thought UVA was in the B1G. Some guy on twitter said it was a done deal 24 months ago.

 

[SubbaBub]

I think one issue within UVA is that the school has a long history with Greek Life and many of its biggest donors and names partcapted in it. Woodrow Wilson was in the same frat, Phi Kappa Psi, involved in the Rolling Stone instigation. Like any other university (or corporation in general), it is driven by money and I am sure that UVA administration is worried that any curtailment or bad press on it's Greek Life will reduce donations from these folks. Thus, the issue was brushed under the rug until now.

It's about not wanting prospective students, and their parent's money, thinking rapes occur at UVA. That and cubicle dwelling livestock impersonating law enforcement. Rape should be reported to the police immediately. Anything less reduces the likelihood of justice being served. Should an alleged victim make a report to the university, the university should direct them to the police and if they have an office that deals with these issues like UVA had, then that office should offer to accompanying the victim to the police in support. If anyone isn't getting satisfaction from either, then hire a lawyer. This is where the Gloria Alfred's of the world, though not her specifically, would actually serve victim's instead of the headline money grabbing they do today.

 

[pnow15]

What is exactly the big deal here? The founder of the UVA was Thomas Jefferson who repeated sexually abused every one of his black female slaves. When visiting Jefferson's plantation Aaron
Burr commented on how many of Tom's slaves looked like their master. Jefferson kept exploiting these woman until his death. Looks to me that the fraternities of UVA are only following in their founder's footprints.

 

[HoopsFan21]

Why is this an ACC thread? I thought UVA was in the B1G. Some guy on twitter said it was a done deal 24 months ago.

Yeah, them and UNC. Can you imagine the B1G adding RapeU and a school that may not even have an accreditation for much longer? At this rate, UConn's going to look pretty attractive with the way the schools are falling like dominoes to scandal.

 

[pj]

Yeah, them and UNC. Can you imagine the B1G adding RapeU and a school that may not even have an accreditation for much longer? At this rate, UConn's going to look pretty attractive with the way the schools are falling like dominoes to scandal.

I fail to see how UVa and UNC becoming less attractive makes UConn more attractive.

Remember, we need a partner.

 

[SubbaBub]

I fail to see how UVa and UNC becoming less attractive makes UConn more attractive.

Remember, we need a partner.

For all the talk of culture surrounding the APR garbage. Both the UNC and UVA scandals go directly to the values of the university. Compare it to PSU if you'd like, but these are much worse because they counterdict the very mission of the university. If the PSU 3 need to go to jail, and I think they probably should, then these schools are knowingly committing fraud.

 

[Seaa Blue]

For all the talk of culture surrounding the APR garbage. Both the UNC and UVA scandals go directly to the values of the university. Compare it to PSU if you'd like, but these are much worse because they counterdict the very mission of the university. If the PSU 3 need to go to jail, and I think they probably should, then these schools are knowingly committing fraud.

I've had similar thoughts bouncing around my head. I know how unpopular it is to suggest that we should lighten up on PSU, but what you say rings true to me. Being around my elderly relatives, I find it increasingly believable that Paterno just didn't get it.

 

[HoopsFan21]

I fail to see how UVa and UNC becoming less attractive makes UConn more attractive.

Remember, we need a partner.

UConn has a great athletic department, rising academic and research rankings, and lacks what all of these big schools seem to have today: headline grabbing scandals. When UConn has the media spotlight it's because they've won another championship. How the P5 can sit back and let very ripe low hanging fruit like that dangle from the tree is beyond me. I guess I just don't fully understand how all the realignment stuff works, but UConn and all of its positive attributes seems like it would be a no-brainer add. I'm sure a partner can be found to go along with UConn when the time comes, but I'll worry about that when I'm certain we're slated as one of the new additions. Right now UConn has to just get its foot in the door.

 

[pj]

The APR stuff is ancient history and anyway I'm sure most academics knew it was a sham, a propaganda tool, and UConn a scapegoat to make it look like the fig leaf was a tiger. Regardless, realignment is about money. If UConn is perceived as bringing money to their schools, college presidents will vote it in, regardless of APR.

 

[ThetaZoo]

The APR stuff is ancient history and anyway I'm sure most academics knew it was a sham, a propaganda tool, and UConn a scapegoat to make it look like the fig leaf was a tiger. Regardless, realignment is about money. If UConn is perceived as bringing money to their schools, college presidents will vote it in, regardless of APR.

I'm not sure if BC, Syracuse and a maybe a few others would vote UConn in even if it meant more $ for them. These institutions are fearful of UConn's potential dominance on the field.

 

[Sea Goat]

I'm not sure if BC, Syracuse and a maybe a few others would vote UConn in even if it meant more $ for them. These institutions are fearful of UConn's potential dominance on the field.

Furthermore, Syracuse is fearful of our dominance in the classroom. It is already a tough sell for Syracuse because it lags behind UConn academically and costs about $40k more per year. Being in the same conference again is the last thing they want to see.

 

[pj]

I'm not sure if BC, Syracuse and a maybe a few others would vote UConn in even if it meant more $ for them. These institutions are fearful of UConn's potential dominance on the field.

They'd have a hard time explaining to North Carolina, Virginia, Florida State, Clemson, Georgia Tech, NC State, Wake, Duke, and Virginia Tech why they should accept less money in order to keep UConn from the ACC.

 

[TouchdownHusky]

Yeah, them and UNC. Can you imagine the B1G adding RapeU and a school that may not even have an accreditation for much longer? At this rate, UConn's going to look pretty attractive with the way the schools are falling like dominoes to scandal.

No they won't, just ask ESPN. The sports baron will advocate, defend, enable, and telecast, telecast, telecast these ACC schools while continuing to ignore UConn.