MLS Expansion

[ZooCougar]

Everett, Revere and Lynn are non-starters for a stadium. Anything that requires access via Rt. 1 or Rt. 1A through that area is a pain to reach from the north much less the south. That's a key reason that the proposed Amazon HQ2 at Suffolk Downs has almost no chance of winning. The Somerville proposal to place the HQ at 4 consecutive Orange Line stations (essentially making the subway the campus shuttle) was probably more interesting because of its uniqueness.

Living in Franklin, Foxboro is almost perfect. I remember waking up at my grandparents house in Franklin to the sound of the bells from Dean College. We went a number of times to see the ill-fated New England Tea Men (not really named because of the Tea Party but because they were owned by the Lipton Tea Company) play before about 8,000 at Schaefer/Sullivan/Foxboro Stadium. When you don't have many fans it's easy in/easy out.

Stupid question. Why not put it right next to where the current stadium is?

 

[HuskyHawk]

In some cities it is a sport followed by upper middle class suburbanites.

In other cities you are dead in the water if your stadium isn’t downtown. Move the Fire downtown and they would have better attendance. Move Portland outside of the city and they won’t draw flies.

Agree completely. And Boston is like Chicago in that respect.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Stupid question. Why not put it right next to where the current stadium is?

Because there is a mall there that makes more money. And because a bunch of people think it should be in the city. Ultimately, it's a reasonable option, but it's a harder sell since they can play in Gillette with no extra money expended.

 

[kibblesnbits]

Because there is a mall there that makes more money. And because a bunch of people think it should be in the city. Ultimately, it's a reasonable option, but it's a harder sell since they can play in Gillette with no extra money expended.

The remaining land on that site is used for the Patriots practice facility, which draws as many fans for a training camp session as the Revs do for some games and probably generates more in spin-off business for Patriot Place. The tenant hierarchy is well-established in Foxboro. I like both teams but the Revs will never establish a clear identity until they have their own facility, which is hard to justify economically unless they have a fantastic site and those are generally too valuable in Eastern Mass to use for a stadium. It’s a difficult situation so Kraft just keeps on keepin’ on with the current sub-optimal situation.

 

[Da_Aisijimo_Gou]

Yeah, there has been no talk. But a Providence stadium could be in the city, and still be an easier drive for 3/4 of the Boston western and southwestern suburbs than a Boston stadium would be. It would obviously also draw RI people and southeastern CT as well. I'm just suggesting that it might provide a much better solution than an expensive location in Boston that is hard for suburbanites to reach. By the way, the Red Sox registered the trademark "WooSox". I think Worcester is going to win that battle, and it probably should. Really becoming a nice small city.

I don't agree with @Da_Aisijimo_Gou that the east/north areas of Everett, Revere, Lynn, are at all reachable on the average weeknight from the western burbs. The commuter rail runs sporadically, and mostly to South Station. And driving there...let's just say that I can get to Portland Maine more easily than there from my spot along 495 in Franklin. That's about a 2 hour drive with traffic. In summer on a weekend it could be worse. Due to starting in Foxborough, the Revs mostly draw from south of the Pike. Putting any stadium north of the Pike will kill the fanbase.

@HuskyHawk, Noting your home in Franklin's roughly 15 miles closer to Providence or 25 miles closer to Foxboro respectively than to Boston, it's clear what drives your perspective. Similar to the Kraft's self interests in Foxboro, it makes some sense. On the other hand, it also ignores the interests of residents of the region's most populous city and adjacent towns, immigrants in & abutting Boston, and city-residing millenials driving success with other franchises.

As inconvenient as getting in to Boston for weekday games may be for Providence suburban residents living an hour+ away in way-out Boston ex-urbs, Foxboro bogarted most interest from city residents day one and continues to kill it now. Opposite of your argument, a few true die hards may sometimes go to the bother of attending weekend games. But, weeknight games? Nyet! Foxboro always was, always will be a stupid location.

 

[Da_Aisijimo_Gou]

Everett, Revere and Lynn are non-starters for a stadium. Anything that requires access via Rt. 1 or Rt. 1A through that area is a pain to reach from the north much less the south.

Acknowledging Everett, Revere and Lynn never were and aren't ideal locations, the driving-dependent exurban or closer suburb argument always spat in the faces of the area's most populous immigrant, millenial, etc. cities. While they're still not happening post-tunnel completion, non-commuter dependent, MBTA-enabled Boston area locations always should have been the focus. Barring a massive economic downturn, the Revs are likely stuck in Providence suburbia.

 

[ZooCougar]

Because there is a mall there that makes more money. And because a bunch of people think it should be in the city. Ultimately, it's a reasonable option, but it's a harder sell since they can play in Gillette with no extra money expended.

Dude I mean, that’s small thinking. Sporting has a Stadium that is next to the Independent League Baseball Park, a NASCAR track, a huge outdoor mall, Cabela’s, Nebraska Furniture Mart and a host of other stuff. It caters to the suburban types with money to spend. Sounds like it fits in with the Revs existing fanbase. If not Foxboro then maybe there is another space like that.... I’ll confess a complete ignorance of the area.

It’s a great time. This is the second time I have lived in the KC Area and I have spent many nights drinking and partying before and after games. With only 20,000 seats, parking and traffic is a breeze. It sucks that Kraft has such poor vision on this.

I give MLS a rash a criticism but there are so many different successful models in the league to copy off of. They may get crappy TV ratings but nowadays it seems like more teams have good attendance than bad. Atlanta is really killing it.

 

[ZooCougar]

The remaining land on that site is used for the Patriots practice facility, which draws as many fans for a training camp session as the Revs do for some games and probably generates more in spin-off business for Patriot Place. The tenant hierarchy is well-established in Foxboro. I like both teams but the Revs will never establish a clear identity until they have their own facility, which is hard to justify economically unless they have a fantastic site and those are generally too valuable in Eastern Mass to use for a stadium. It’s a difficult situation so Kraft just keeps on keepin’ on with the current sub-optimal situation.

Yeah, I still think if he wanted a stadium, then it would be done by now.

Getting their own facility done right, with rebrand is what that team needs to achieve its potential.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Dude I mean, that’s small thinking. Sporting has a Stadium that is next to the Independent League Baseball Park, a NASCAR track, a huge outdoor mall, Cabela’s, Nebraska Furniture Mart and a host of other stuff. It caters to the suburban types with money to spend. Sounds like it fits in with the Revs existing fanbase. If not Foxboro then maybe there is another space like that.... I’ll confess a complete ignorance of the area.

It’s a great time. This is the second time I have lived in the KC Area and I have spent many nights drinking and partying before and after games. With only 20,000 seats, parking and traffic is a breeze. It sucks that Kraft has such poor vision on this.

I give MLS a rash a criticism but there are so many different successful models in the league to copy off of. They may get crappy TV ratings but nowadays it seems like more teams have good attendance than bad. Atlanta is really killing it.

I've lived in KC and it's very different. I could easily go to where the stadium is from my edge of suburbia apartment in Lenexa. It simply isn't true in Boston, which is now ranked dead last in traffic congestion. The other different factor is that KC had lots of old urban industrial/stockyard type sites that were ripe for development. Boston had a few...ten years ago, in South Boston. Now that's the hottest real estate around. And that location is one of the few that is off the subway and commuter rail lines, so wouldn't have been good anyway. The 20-30 acres of land they need would cost at least $50 million anywhere close to Boston proper.

Foxborough already does the same things you are talking about. Patriot Place | Boston | Foxborough | Movie Theater | Restaurants It has a Bass Pro Shop, shopping, a movie theater, lots of bars and nightlife, etc. They already play in the stadium that is there. There is even a train line from the city out to it. The stadium is just too big. For me it would be ideal, but I doubt Kraft will do it, since he already has a stadium there that they can play in for free.

This is why I was trying to think outside the box. They are not the Boston Revolution. They are the New England Revolution, and draw heavily from RI already. Providence is like a smaller KC. It has some very nice things going for it, but also still has a ton of old industrial locations that can be inexpensively turned into something like what was built for Sporting. If Kraft can duplicate "Patriots Place" with a "Revolution Place" in Providence it would be a huge success. The population is a mix of Italians, Portuguese and recent immigrants from Latin America. It's a better soccer town than Boston is.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Acknowledging Everett, Revere and Lynn never were and aren't ideal locations, the driving-dependent exurban or closer suburb argument always spat in the faces of the area's most populous immigrant, millenial, etc. cities. While they're still not happening post-tunnel completion, non-commuter dependent, MBTA-enabled Boston area locations always should have been the focus. Barring a massive economic downturn, the Revs are likely stuck in Providence suburbia.

Those "most populous immigrant, millennial, etc. cities" have the least disposable income in the region. The burbs along 128, 95 and 495 have the money to spend. The people with money living in Boston proper (and there are lots), are not the people who go to MLS games.

Foxboro is an MBTA enabled Boston area location. They added extra trains for the JayZ Beyonce show there just a week ago.

 

[kibblesnbits]

Foxboro is on the train line from Boston to Providence so they run trains from each city to Patriots games. They could do the same for the Revolution if the demand is there. The situation is not ideal, however, because the stadium is on a small siding rather than the regular line. Ideally, a new stadium would be close to a main line (subway preferable over commuter rail) so there would be multiple train options and fans would be able to go early or stay late to participate in game related or other entertainment activities. The game trains just get there about 1/2 hour before and leave 1/2 hour after.

As for Boston land, one 5.6 acre property the Revs considered in the South End (not a great option as it would have required also buying several nearby building for demolition and public transit access was marginal) went for $40M and is now the site of a $1B+ development project. Gillette sold 2.5 acres for GE’s new corporate HQ for about $80M. If you could find it, 20-30 acres in Boston with good transit access would probably cost $200M-$500M before actually thinking about stadium costs. That’s why they looked hard at Somerville and that property is now part of a multi-billion dollar mixed use development.

P.S. Franklin is a major terminus for one of the commuter rail lines. If there was a Boston soccer stadium it would have excellent access. Returning rush hour trains (weekdays) or mid-day trains (weekends) are often surprisingly full with Fenway-bound patrons. The same could be true for the Revs.

 

[Da_Aisijimo_Gou]

Had a stadium been built in or abutting Boston, plenty of disposable income exists in Boston, Cambridge, Somerville AND inside/abutting 128 suburbs. Additionally, plenty of millennials and immigrants in other cities have disposable income. Particularly in metro Boston, Cambridge, etc. and 128 suburbs compared with many US cities, certainly not all immigrants are the stereotypically impoverished immigrants Hawk suggested favors a Providence/ Pawtucket location. Similar to other US cities with stronger MLS team support, plenty of millennials within 128 find ways to spend plenty of disposable income. Yes, they’d manage to get to a closer stadium. Nope, they’re not hopping on a ommuter line to Foxboro.

Foxboro & MBTA, eh? Are you guys actually trying to suggest any similarity exists between a one-off Beyonce concert in a 65K seat Gillette Stadium and a non-existent Foxboro soccer-specific stadium seating 20K? If so, feeble argument. Or, are you now supporting a Boston/abutting town soccer stadium as it would be so darn convenient for Franklin/Foxboro exurbanites to hop on the commuter line?

 

[kibblesnbits]

Had a stadium been built in or abutting Boston, plenty of disposable income exists in Boston, Cambridge, Somerville AND inside/abutting 128 suburbs. Additionally, plenty of millennials and immigrants in other cities have disposable income. Particularly in metro Boston, Cambridge, etc. and 128 suburbs compared with many US cities, certainly not all immigrants are the stereotypically impoverished immigrants Hawk suggested favors a Providence/ Pawtucket location. Similar to other US cities with stronger MLS team support, plenty of millennials within 128 find ways to spend plenty of disposable income. Yes, they’d manage to get to a closer stadium. Nope, they’re not hopping on a ommuter line to Foxboro.

Foxboro & MBTA, eh? Are you guys actually trying to suggest any similarity exists between a one-off Beyonce concert in a 65K seat Gillette Stadium and a non-existent Foxboro soccer-specific stadium seating 20K? If so, feeble argument. Or, are you now supporting a Boston/abutting town soccer stadium as it would be so darn convenient for Franklin/Foxboro exurbanites to hop on the commuter line?

No, I'm suggesting that no one has suggested a site in extremely expensive and completely built out greater Boston (which, for this purpose, I'd consider to be within the reach of the MBTA subway system) that has good access, 20 or so acres and isn't valued at such an obscene amount of money that using it for a 20K soccer stadium makes no economic sense at all. Remember that the Red Sox, tried for over a decade to build a new ballpark in Boston before giving up and renovating Fenway. As far as the Revs go, the economic collapse of 2008 was probably the last chance to acquire such a property in the normal commercial marketplace (and even then land alone would have probably been a $100M+ exercise) and I wouldn't blame anyone that didn't want to plunk down an additional few hundred million for a soccer stadium in that market. Since then prices for commercial property in Boston have exploded.

You may well be right that the only properties that would be close to economically feasible within the bounds of the subway system are in the East Boston, Everett, Revere area (and I don't see the owners of Suffolk Downs and similar properties calling for a stadium - they want mixed use commercial like everywhere else). That means essentially writing off the existing fan base as car access from the suburbs in any direction would be brutal and hoping that those millenials with $ in the urban core of the metropolitan area will go there. Everett is really out because, while it's within the bounds of the subway system, no line goes there. For East Boston and Revere, the primary access would have to be the Blue Line and I'll bet most urban millenials have never been on it. If they have, I'll virtually guarantee they've never been past the airport. The Blue Line, precisely because its primary service is the East Boston, Revere, corridor, is by far the least ridden subway line, carrying less than 1/3 as many riders as any of others. It's the step child of the MBTA.

 

[Da_Aisijimo_Gou]

No, I'm suggesting that no one has suggested a site in extremely expensive and completely built out greater Boston (which, for this purpose, I'd consider to be within the reach of the MBTA subway system) that has good access, 20 or so acres and isn't valued at such an obscene amount of money that using it for a 20K soccer stadium makes no economic sense at all.

Yup, subway accessible to/from Boston or a reasonable walk to/from a subway stop. Not, a commuter line stop. Barring a now unanticipated massive economic downturn smashing Boston, that's just unlikely to happen. Consequently with limited potential for the Krafts to sell the Revs, they'll likely remain stuck in Foxboro with no increased accessibility from/to Boston, fan base diversity (millenials, immigrants of diverse income levels, etc.), attendance, nor fans with a pulse.

 

[LIuconn]

Dont know where else to put this. DC United's new stadium is ugly as hell on TV. What is that eyesore at half field? It looks like a terrible sliding glass door.

 

[ZooCougar]

Go behind-the-scenes at Sporting Kansas City's Pinnacle Training Center

Sporting’s new training facility. Unreal nice. And it is basically next to the stadium.

 

[UCFBfan]

So it looks like Columbus will be keeping their team after all. Pretty crazy turn of events as this looked like a sure thing that they'd move to Austin.

Cleveland Browns owners in negotiations with MLS to buy Columbus Crew SC

 

[LIuconn]

Austin gets their team too

 

[DarthGrumpy]

Austin gets their team too

MLS seems to be really stuck on Austin and Miami. Why? Austin is a college town and smaller than nearby San Antonio. Miami has proven to be a difficult town for any pro team that does not have an 'it' factor, which is usually just temporary (see LeBron and Shaq).

Plus, Sacramento is still waiting out there along with St. Louis, which has a new backer in the form of the owner of Enterprise Rental Cars. I have also heard that Raleigh and Detroit continue to be in the mix. Now, add into the talk that the 2066 North America World Cup may result in MLS merging with Liga MX to create a monster of a league. If that ever came to fruition, regulation would (hopefully) come into play.

U.S., Canada, Mexico could form league - Bonilla

Meanwhile up north after DC got a new stadium, news stadiums were aproved for Miami,. Nashville, and Cincinatti and even Columbus may now get a new pitch, the Revs are still playing at Gillette as Bob Kraft continues to try and get someone to pay and build a soccer stadium for him...

 

[ZooCougar]

Austin is like the biggest city in the nation without a pro sports team. It’s a good opportunity and there is a stadium deal.

 

[Adios]

Am not an MLS or pro soccer fan but why not Rentschler for the Revs? They'd easily outdraw the football team right now. Would also serve western Mass, obviously.

 

[Waquoit]

Am not an MLS or pro soccer fan but why not Rentschler for the Revs? They'd easily outdraw the football team right now. Would also serve western Mass, obviously.

The Rent is now Hartford Athletic territory.

 

[ZooCougar]

Am not an MLS or pro soccer fan but why not Rentschler for the Revs? They'd easily outdraw the football team right now. Would also serve western Mass, obviously.

Revs draw like 18k on a good day last I checked.

 

[LIuconn]

Austin is like the biggest city in the nation without a pro sports team

+ double digit growth every year for the past 10+, good-paying tech jobs, etc. Def a good opp for a team like this to succeed

 

[DarthGrumpy]

One positve step for the Revs and a hint that there maybe a stadium plan on the horizon from the Kraft family...

Here are renderings of the Rev's planned $35 million training facility | Boston.com