MLB to add Negro Leagues to the official record books

[Travelman6]

How will things like best batting averages over a single season be counted, as far as single-season records? You had guys hitting +.450 in the negro leagues but over a much shorter season. Should they belong on single-season all-time best lists> Same with ERA, etc.

 

[Husky68]

I like this. Don't care about why, or why now, just like the idea. They were a major league.
In 1959 my little league team had a black manager who was a great guy, was told back then he was a hell of a baseball player in his day, in 59 he was in his 40's. This is for you Mr. Patterson and the opportunities you never had.

 

[superjohn]

I guess the USFL was horrible. They still had Jim Kelly, Steve Young, Reggie White, Herschel Walker, Mike Rozier and Doug Williams. And the negro league were played in the 1890s to 1930's, where the quality of baseball was really high end. Guys pitching 330 innings on 3 days rest. 2-3 guys in the entire league hitting more than 12-13 hrs a year over fences 480 yds away and all.

The National League has been around since 1876 and they didn't start a slow integration of black players until 1947, the Negro Leagues also started in the last 1800's and were pretty much over by the start of the 1950's once baseball had intergrated. The USFL was a little 3 year blip startup in football where black and white players chose to play for them instead of the NFL, nobody was banned from playing in the NFL.

You would've had a better argument bringing up the ABA since it was a closer league to the NBA in how good it was and because the leagues merged they have a better argument in having their totals included in the NBA totals. NBA was still a lot better but it was closer than the USFL was to the NFL. It would still be a terrible example comparing it to MLB and the Negro Leagues because black players weren't banned from the NBA and made a choice to play in the ABA.

If you do have a genuine interest and want to learn about the quality of the play and players of the Negro Leagues I suggest you read The Negro Leagues were the Major Leagues by Todd Peterson or The New Bill James Historical Abstract. You can also get a pretty decent understanding of how good these guys were by reading what Aaron, DiMaggio, Ruth, Feller etc. said about them.

 

[8893]

If you do have a genuine interest and want to learn about the quality of the play and players of the Negro Leagues I suggest you read The Negro Leagues were the Major Leagues by Todd Peterson or The New Bill James Historical Abstract. You can also get a pretty decent understanding of how good these guys were by reading what Aaron, DiMaggio, Ruth, Feller etc. said about them.

I heard about it while listening to this piece on NPR last night on my ride home. I didn't know what to think about it at the start because, embarrassingly enough, I was ignorant of the movement and had never thought about it before.

I kind of cringed when Kelly said "They're correcting racism is what they're correcting here," but upon reflection I guess that's the point. There really is no other way to say it. In any event, by the end there was no question in my mind that it's the right move.

 

[tzznandrew]

In the late 1960s, a group decided which non MLB leagues counted as "Major Leagues," and the Negro Leagues were excluded, on the basis of race. They should have been included then. If they didn't do this for players like Cap Anson and others, perhaps there'd be an argument. They did, so there isn't.

It's really not going to change any career records (though Satchel Paige rockets up the charts, as he should have). This is obviously a huge win. These players came into the league and won Cy Youngs and MVPs, and unlike the USFL and ABA were excluded from the AL and NL rather than choosing to play elsewhere.

 

[bfs3]

I doubt many of the records will change too much. The Negro Leagues did a lot of barnstorming tours, which will be counted as exhibition games I would imagine and therefore not count towards professional records. Also the Negro Leagues only played 60+ games a year.

This was my first thought. I wonder if the BA record will have the min AB required as well.

 

[superjohn]

In the late 1960s, a group decided which non MLB leagues counted as "Major Leagues," and the Negro Leagues were excluded, on the basis of race. They should have been included then. If they didn't do this for players like Cap Anson and others, perhaps there'd be an argument. They did, so there isn't.

It's really not going to change any career records (though Satchel Paige rockets up the charts, as he should have). This is obviously a huge win. These players came into the league and won Cy Youngs and MVPs, and unlike the USFL and ABA were excluded from the AL and NL rather than choosing to play elsewhere.

You can make a valid case Satchel Paige is the greatest pitcher ever, Josh Gibson is the greatest hitter ever, and Oscar Charleston the greatest player ever...that's how great these guys were. Those three and Pop Lloyd are top 20 all-time baseball players.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

Right. And my point is that anytime a league blurs those lines, it waters down the overall stat pool.

Agreed. Gotta keep those stats compiled in a segregated league sacred and holy.

However using the USFL as an example hurts our point, champ. That league started because one group of near-billionaires wouldn't allow another group of near-billionaires to play. Not quite the same as baseball's issue.

 

[tzznandrew]

You can make a valid case Satchel Paige is the greatest pitcher ever, Josh Gibson is the greatest hitter ever, and Oscar Charleston the greatest player ever...that's how great these guys were. Those three and Pop Lloyd are top 20 all-time baseball players.

Satchel Paige made MLB All Star Games in his mid-40s.

What would he have done in his prime?

 

[Deepster]

Agreed. Gotta keep those stats compiled in a segregated league sacred and holy.

However using the USFL as an example hurts our point, champ. That league started because one group of near-billionaires wouldn't allow another group of near-billionaires to play. Not quite the same as baseball's issue.

Pick whatever league you want. ABA? Fine. Same point. I don't care about the color of a player's skin. The negro league wasn't Major League Baseball. If you want to say it is to cover up your white guilt? Fine. But it's not the major leagues.

 

[Pawsox]

Haven’t had a chance to read the article, but didn’t Josh Gibson hit like 830 home runs or something absurd like that?

That figure is a guess based on all of the games they played. In a lot of years, the Negro League teams only played 60-80 games against other Negro League teams. That gave the teams time to barnstorm around the country playing "semi-pro" teams or town teams, where the talent level was less. Based on research of historical accounts performed for the Special Committee on the Negro Leagues, Gibson hit 224 homers in 2,375 at-bats against top black teams, 2 in 56 at-bats against white major-league pitchers and 44 in 450 AB in the Mexican League.[13]

That is a homerun to ABs ratio of 10.6, which is otherworldy. He had to be an unbelievable hitter.

 

[Dream Jobbed 2.0]

So, are Steve Young’s and Herschel Walkers USFL stats included in their NFL totals too?

Deepster with another SCORCHING hot take.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

Deepster with another SCORCHING hot take.

Deepster having an issue with the MLB counting negro league statistics is the least surprising thing I’ve seen on the BY in quite a while.

 

[navery12]

Deepster having an issue with the MLB counting negro league statistics is the least surprising thing I’ve seen on the BY in quite a while.

The least surprising thing I've seen on the BY since yesterday when he showed up complaining about Paige Bueckers and the women's team

 

[Deepster]

The least surprising thing I've seen on the BY since yesterday when he showed up complaining about Paige Bueckers and the women's team

How many years have I had to post on the "Hey, Men's Board! Watch this Women's player! She's so good" threads? 20 years?

 

[navery12]

How many years have I had to post on the "Hey, Men's Board! Watch this Women's player! She's so good" threads? 20 years?

Probably, I just don't see what the issue is. If it bothers you that much just click ignore thread and you'll never see it again

 

[glastonbury50]

Have any former negro league players spoken out about this? I have a feeling some might say "thanks, but no thanks."

 

[navery12]

Have any former negro league players spoken out about this? I have a feeling some might say "thanks, but no thanks."

Don't think anyone has yet, as of June 2019 there were only 56 living, have to imagine that number has gone down since then. A 20 year old in the last season of the Negro Leagues would be 90 years old today

 

[WhereistheDove?]

Probably, I just don't see what the issue is. If it bothers you that much just click ignore thread and you'll never see it again

Deepster is definitely the old guy that goes on any Facebook thread he doesn’t like to take the time to comment “nobody cares!”.

 

[ColchVEGAS]

Have any former negro league players spoken out about this? I have a feeling some might say "thanks, but no thanks."

Willie Mays did. He said something along the lines he was happy but they are just numbers at this point and it does not fix the fact that the average players who could have easily been utility guys in the majors never got that chance to fulfill their dreams.

I read a book when I was younger about the Negro Leagues and I suggest anybody questioning how good these guys were go do some research and pull up stories from their playing days. While many called Josh Gibson "Black Babe Ruth" there were quite a few writers who called Babe Ruth "White Josh Gibson." Gibson is still the only one to hit the ball clear out of Yankee Stadium.

It is a shame we cannot read stories of these guys playing on the same teams and facing the same pitchers.