Might Be Another Long Year for Sox fans

[intlzncster]

Not sure this is the hill Astros and anti-Sox fans want to die on, considering:

Metro Exclusive: Astros may have been cheating in Game 1 against Red Sox

My favorite take so far is Jerry Thorton's, which, if you're a Pats fan, is perfect:

I am shocked shocked! at what is being alleged here. The idea of a team trying to steal another team’s signs is appalling. The fact that they’d do it with spy cameras, is worse than appalling. It calls into question the very integrity of the game.

There’s only one way to approach this massive scandal of epic proportions. We need more than an investigation by MLB. We need fines. Draft picks taken away. U.S. Senators threatening hearings. Pandering for votes. Talk about suspending AJ Hinch. Or maybe banning him for life like he’s Pete Rose. Class Action lawsuits from the fans of New York who claim they’ve been defrauded.

Mostly we need – NEED – to see the tapes. The can’t be thrown away. They must be released to the public. Otherwise this calls into question everything the Astros have ever won and slapping a big, ginormous asterisk on their championship like the Scarlet Letter. Only then can the sport be saved and our nation can believe in the integrity of the sport again.

Great job, Astrocheats.

 

[Husky25]

My favorite take so far is Jerry Thorton's, which, if you're a Pats fan, is perfect:

I am shocked shocked! at what is being alleged here. The idea of a team trying to steal another team’s signs is appalling. The fact that they’d do it with spy cameras, is worse than appalling. It calls into question the very integrity of the game.

There’s only one way to approach this massive scandal of epic proportions. We need more than an investigation by MLB. We need fines. Draft picks taken away. U.S. Senators threatening hearings. Pandering for votes. Talk about suspending AJ Hinch. Or maybe banning him for life like he’s Pete Rose. Class Action lawsuits from the fans of New York who claim they’ve been defrauded.

Mostly we need – NEED – to see the tapes. The can’t be thrown away. They must be released to the public. Otherwise this calls into question everything the Astros have ever won and slapping a big, ginormous asterisk on their championship like the Scarlet Letter. Only then can the sport be saved and our nation can believe in the integrity of the sport again.

Great job, Astrocheats.

I read it this morning and I couldn't agree more. Assuming he's aware of it, I'm only marginally surprised @superjohn hasn't commented yet.

 

[superjohn]

You're apparently only paying attention to one team . . .

"Chaos would ensue"

I've watched a lot of playoff games and have only noticed it with Red Sox relievers. The article answers some questions. It is cheating but some accept it for hitter safety and because others do it. Astros haven't complained to the umps because other teams have accused them of cheating in the past.

 

[Husky25]

I've watched a lot of playoff games and have only noticed it with Red Sox relievers. The article answers some questions. It is cheating but some accept it for hitter safety and because others do it. Astros haven't complained to the umps because other teams have accused them of cheating in the past.

How about stealing signs using technology? The 2017 World Series and the 2018 ALDS with the Indians should carry asterisks, no?

 

[superjohn]

How about stealing signs using technology? The 2017 World Series and the 2108 ALDS with the Indians should carry asterisks, no?

Not saying anything should carry asterisks but cheating is cheating. I don't understand how we can keep two of the best players of all-time and the best of their generation out of the Hall (Bonds and Clemens) and not even a slap on the wrist when other players are cheating all the time. I don't like selective enforcement which was rampant with the steroid guys.

 

[The Viking]

I've watched a lot of playoff games and have only noticed it with Red Sox relievers. The article answers some questions. It is cheating but some accept it for hitter safety and because others do it. Astros haven't complained to the umps because other teams have accused them of cheating in the past.

I'm pretty sure I saw a couple of NY relievers doing it in the playoffs - Britton and Robertson maybe off the top of my head? Its happened in the past and pitchers off the record say like 70-80% of pitchers do it and hitters prefer a better grip anyway.

 

[Husky25]

Not saying anything should carry asterisks but cheating is cheating. I don't understand how we can keep two of the best players of all-time and the best of their generation out of the Hall (Bonds and Clemens) and not even a slap on the wrist when other players are cheating all the time. I don't like selective enforcement which was rampant with the steroid guys.

Honestly, I was using the Way-Back Machine about your postings on the Patriots and vis a vie the Jerry Thorton comment posted above by @intlzncster.

The Bolded are not comparable situations. Election to the National Baseball HoF is up to those who hold ballots in the BBWAA. Those guys have no direct effect over the out-by-out happenings in a game.

I don't think it is selective enforcement necessarily, but I'd compare "doctoring" the ball to speeding. Both 68mph (resin/sunscreen) and 76 mph (sandpaper/nail file, for example) on the highway are technically illegal, but if you change the rule to include the lesser offense (i.e. increase the speed limit to 70mph.), it makes it easier to accept the greater one. Umpires are more than willing to accept that managers have a wink/nod agreement that nothing less than a blatant rule violation will be called out, especially if safety is at stake.

 

[Dooley]

Stealing signs has been a part of baseball for over 100 years. This is news because it involves modern day technology and not the ol' tried and true method of getting guys on base and relaying signs to hitters. Teams are using double and even triple signs for most/all pitches these days...even when they're at home and nobody is on base. And they should.

 

[Dream Jobbed 2.0]

Houston fans are real dumb

 

[intlzncster]

Not saying anything should carry asterisks but cheating is cheating. I don't understand how we can keep two of the best players of all-time and the best of their generation out of the Hall (Bonds and Clemens) and not even a slap on the wrist when other players are cheating all the time. I don't like selective enforcement which was rampant with the steroid guys.

That's the baseball writers. All high and mighty, but stick their heads in the sand about cheating throughout history. It's been going on since the dawn of the game. Some were just better at it than others.

For my money, there isn't much 'cheating' in sports that bothers me. Most of it is just gamesmanship of a fashion. The obvious line is drawn at throwing games for gambling purposes etc.

Also, deliberately blowing the salary cap in the NFL, and taking the 'punishment', but keeping the glory/wins on the field, even though you unfairly benefited by having more/better players as a result. That was egregious cheating imo.

 

[Waquoit]

Clemens and Bonds deserve to be there. Gaylord Perry’s in.

 

[Husky25]

Clemens and Bonds deserve to be there. Gaylord Perry’s in.

There's enough circumstantial evidence to keep Bonds out, if PEDs is the only criteria. If he's telling the truth, he would basically be the only BALCO client to not use performance enhancers. Both were cleared of perjury in Federal court, but the bar to clear was reasonable doubt. So that doesn't mean a whole lot. The shame of it is they were both sure-thing HoF'ers before they were suspected of take performance enhancers. They may not have been 1st ballot, but they aren't now either. With 4 years left in their eligibility, they are both over 56%. There is a decent chance they get in.

I used to think differently, but unless admitted to or caught, every player with worthy numbers should get in. If suspected, it should be noted on the plaque. The Steroid Era happened. It should be acknowledged. It's not like the actual Hall is the tourist destination anyway. The museum is far more interesting and, as record holders, they are sure to have an eternal spots there.

 

[60'sfan]

Well, I started this thread "Might be another long year for Sox fans" and it looks like I got it right. It is late October and we are still playing.

 

[Dream Jobbed 2.0]

Well, I started this thread "Might be another long year for Sox fans" and it looks like I got it right. It is late October and we are still playing.

My thoughts every time this gets bumped

 

[Waquoit]

Well, I started this thread "Might be another long year for Sox fans" and it looks like I got it right. It is late October and we are still playing.

My hope is that you learned something.

 

[the Q]

There's enough circumstantial evidence to keep Bonds out, if PEDs is the only criteria. If he's telling the truth, he would basically be the only BALCO client to not use performance enhancers. Both were cleared of perjury in Federal court, but the bar to clear was reasonable doubt. So that doesn't mean a whole lot. The shame of it is they were both sure-thing HoF'ers before they were suspected of take performance enhancers. They may not have been 1st ballot, but they aren't now either. With 4 years left in their eligibility, they are both over 56%. There is a decent chance they get in.

I used to think differently, but unless admitted to or caught, every player with worthy numbers should get in. If suspected, it should be noted on the plaque. The Steroid Era happened. It should be acknowledged. It's not like the actual Hall is the tourist destination anyway. The museum is far more interesting and, as record holders, they are sure to have an eternal spots there.

Clemens case is so fascinating.

McNamara says x, but all his comments are negated by canseco, who said rocket was never at his party.

And frankly, Canseco has come out of this as the most credible source we have on the steroid era.

 

[60'sfan]

My hope is that you learned something.

I learned that I am often wrong.

 

[Waquoit]

This season not only completely vindicates Dave Dombrowski, it may even put him the HoF discussion. He took over a last place team and won 3 straight division titles. But the farm system! The farm system is supposed to supply players to the bigs. It has to the tune of a World Championship. And what about the prospects he dealt? Has any of them panned out yet?

 

[intlzncster]

This season not only completely vindicates Dave Dombrowski, it may even put him the HoF discussion. He took over a last place team and won 3 straight division titles. But the farm system! The farm system is supposed to supply players to the bigs. It has to the tune of a World Championship. And what about the prospects he dealt? Has any of them panned out yet?

The kids in Chicago looks like they'll be pretty good. But that was well worth the price for Chris Sale.

 

[60'sfan]

Agreed. The kids in Chicago are not showing much yet. Kopech is apparently having Tommy John surgery and Moncado hit .235 this past year with 217 K's. The one trade where he blew it was the acquisition of Tyler Thornburg. It cost us Travis Shaw. But hey, it looked good at the time.
Big question now is who do we make sure does not get away. Pending free agents: Joe Kelly, Nathan Eovaldi, Steve Pearce, Ian Kinsler, Drew Pomeranz, Craig Kimbrel and David Price.

I doubt that Price would exercise his option and Joe Kelly has made it clear he wants to stay. Kinsler is excess baggage if Pedroia comes back. I don't think they will try to keep Pomeranz but I will be disappointed if they don't try hard to keep Eovaldi. Kimbrel is a big question. If they let him go, can Kelly become the closer? I would like to see Steve Pearce stay and I think he would too but he will be 36 next year and one or two years is the only thing that makes sense. My biggest fear is that the Yankees will give Eovaldi an offer he can't refuse.

 

[Danzz]

Agreed. The kids in Chicago are not showing much yet. Kopech is apparently having Tommy John surgery and Moncado hit .235 this past year with 217 K's. The one trade where he blew it was the acquisition of Tyler Thornburg. It cost us Travis Shaw. But hey, it looked good at the time.
Big question now is who do we make sure does not get away. Pending free agents: Joe Kelly, Nathan Eovaldi, Steve Pearce, Ian Kinsler, Drew Pomeranz, Craig Kimbrel and David Price.

I doubt that Price would exercise his option and Joe Kelly has made it clear he wants to stay. Kinsler is excess baggage if Pedroia comes back. I don't think they will try to keep Pomeranz but I will be disappointed if they don't try hard to keep Eovaldi. Kimbrel is a big question. If they let him go, can Kelly become the closer? I would like to see Steve Pearce stay and I think he would too but he will be 36 next year and one or two years is the only thing that makes sense. My biggest fear is that the Yankees will give Eovaldi an offer he can't refuse.

Eovaldi would be the key signing.
The big question for me is Kimbrel who had a very good year until the end. He seems to be fine if he pitches the 9th inning 2 days in a row and then a game off. He has been ineffective when he gets too much rest or gets used more than that. He had some dismal performances when he was apparently tipping his pitches.
They should be able to sign Pearce and Kelly but signing Eovaldi will take major money.

 

[Husky25]

Agreed. The kids in Chicago are not showing much yet. Kopech is apparently having Tommy John surgery and Moncado hit .235 this past year with 217 K's. The one trade where he blew it was the acquisition of Tyler Thornburg. It cost us Travis Shaw. But hey, it looked good at the time.
Big question now is who do we make sure does not get away. Pending free agents: Joe Kelly, Nathan Eovaldi, Steve Pearce, Ian Kinsler, Drew Pomeranz, Craig Kimbrel and David Price.

I doubt that Price would exercise his option and Joe Kelly has made it clear he wants to stay. Kinsler is excess baggage if Pedroia comes back. I don't think they will try to keep Pomeranz but I will be disappointed if they don't try hard to keep Eovaldi. Kimbrel is a big question. If they let him go, can Kelly become the closer? I would like to see Steve Pearce stay and I think he would too but he will be 36 next year and one or two years is the only thing that makes sense. My biggest fear is that the Yankees will give Eovaldi an offer he can't refuse.

I don't think those are very tough questions. You only try to keep Eovaldi and Kelly.

The Red Sox were Pearce's favorite childhood team and he just won the World Series with them. So he may be looking to spin his WS MVP into bigger money elsewhere and price himself out (Already was making >$6M). As you say, he will be 36 and he's not Mike Lowell. I believe Moreland is on the books next year, and Martinez could potentially be converted into a serviceable backup in the field.

If Price opts out, you let him walk. He's on the wrong side of 30, with an elbow hanging by a thread of a UCL. $30.whatever Mil will buy at least two starting pitchers with upside.

I think you let Kimbrel walk as well. Unfortunately for him, his playoff performance won't net him the bigger dollars I think he was hoping for, and he was already making $13M. 30 years olds typically get one more LT contract and at his age, velocity normally starts to decrease (See: Alan Embree). I don't think it would behoove the Sox to pay big for past performance, especially if he can't figure out his wildness/pitch tipping.

The bigger questions is who can be leveraged in a trade. Bradley? Swihart (can he become a permanent non-catcher?)? The Sox have some big arbitration contracts coming due. Obviously they have shown the ability to pay for players to get the job done, but in order to not destroy the salary bell curve, they need to decide on who. For example Betts will command Harper/Trout like money on the open market. He's already making $10.5 Mil and is in his second arbitration year. Will he come to the table? How about Benintendi, Barnes, and Devers? They are making short money in their 2 way pre-arbitration deals. Can their arbitration years be bought out with a sensible LT contract?

 

[Dooley]

Eovaldi will command market value. I'd be shocked if he takes a cheap 1 or 2 year deal. While he pitched fairly well as a SP, I think that guy could be a lights out closer. If the Sox let Kimbrel walk, they could re-sign Eovaldi at a fair market rate 3 or 4 year deal.

There is no way Price opts out of his deal. None. Especially not after last offseason and watching teams pay couch cushion change (as far as MLB contracts go) 1 year deals to most free agents over 30 yo. 33 yo Price would be opting out of 4 years - $127M. There is a better chance of UConn getting into the College Football Playoff and then the SEC than there is David Price getting that kind of contract on the open market.

 

[Waquoit]

My biggest fear is that the Yankees will give Eovaldi an offer he can't refuse.

That's their pattern lately, sign a guy off the Sox after they win it all. Still owe Ellsbury big cash.

Kinsler was basically terrible, he's gone. Joe Kelly can take Kimbrell's place. Pearce will be back with a decent offer.

 

[Husky25]

33 yo Price would be opting out of 4 years - $127M. There is a better chance of UConn getting into the College Football Playoff and then the SEC than there is David Price getting that kind of contract on the open market.

I think it depends how important that last $32M is. There is speculation that he may accept $0.80 on the dollar to get out of the Boston fishbowl.

 

[Waquoit]

I think it depends how important that last $32M is. There is speculation that he may accept $0.80 on the dollar to get out of the Boston fishbowl.

Even now? He holds all the cards!

 

[Husky25]

Pearce will be back with a decent offer.

I don't see it. Moreland is younger, better on the whole, and making the same money. I think the Sox will float a token offer, but I doubt he bites.

 

[Dooley]

I think it depends how important that last $32M is. There is speculation that he may accept $0.80 on the dollar to get out of the Boston fishbowl.

We're talking about the MLBPA here. There is zero chance Price takes a 80 cents on the dollar deal, even if it means leaving Boston. If he desperately wants out of Boston so badly, he'll go through the normal trade demand channel and the Sox will have to eat money to move him. Probably alot of money.

And the last $32M doesn't matter. He's not getting anywhere close to $31-$32M in years 1-3 either. He'd be opting out of $31.5M/AAV to sign a 3 year deal that would - MAYBE - pay him $20M/AAV. More realistically, he'd probably only get $15M/AAV based on age and injury risk.

 

[intlzncster]

A
k. I don't think they will try to keep Pomeranz but I will be disappointed if they don't try hard to keep Eovaldi. Kimbrel is a big question. If they let him go, can Kelly become the closer? I would like to see Steve Pearce stay and I think he would too but he will be 36 next year and one or two years is the only thing that makes sense. My biggest fear is that the Yankees will give Eovaldi an offer he can't refuse.

There's a million guys out there linked to the Yanks. They can't pay all of them.

 

[intlzncster]

I don't see it. Moreland is younger, better on the whole, and making the same money. I think the Sox will float a token offer, but I doubt he bites.

He's the ultimate utility player. One of, if not the, best in the bigs. I think the Sox value that, and what he brings in the clubhouse in terms of vet leadership. He's shown what he can do when he's thriving. Pierce is one of those unique guys who's traded so often precisely because he's is so valued. Teams aren't throwing him away, they're requesting him.

His whole family are diehard redsox fans, as his dad is originally from Boston. Getting traded to the Sox was a dream come true, and that's before all the success.

If he can get any kind of decent money, he'll return. I think he also values stability at this point, given his past. But other teams are going to be offering good deals, who knows?