Maya, Stewie, DT: best player versus best winner?

[alexrgct]

Hey, remember how Uconn had Maya, Diana, and Stewie, whereas other WCBB programs didn't? That was pretty fun right? Three WNBA #1 picks, three Olympians, nine WCBB NCs between the three of them, WNBA championships, gold medals, four of the five longest winning streaks in WCBB history(90',75 and counting, 70, and 47), etc- this has meant everything to Uconn WBB and its associated brand equity.

Well, we could argue ad infinitum who of the three was the GOAT, but we can have even more arguments beyond that. If you wanted to see something spectacular and have it look easy, Maya and Stewie have that covered. Want someone to have the ball against anyone with their lives on the line ? Well, Diana always knew how to punch something orange, Stewie was a certified Notre Dame killer, and Maya was able to combine her brilliance with timing as well as almost anyone.

So I have seven selectable options allowing as many as two selections per vote. I think this poll will elicit some "other" votes as well, but at any rate it's fun to discuss. What criteria should define "greatest ever", which should define "greatest winner", and who among this embarrassment of riches (I mean, one school can rightfully claim a trio of Maya, Diana, AND Stewie???) fits those criteria the most?

These can be great discussions, or they can be generally fruitless, but think about what really matters to you most in basketball, as well as who embodies those things the most comprehensively.

If nothing else, we can spend a little time celebrating these transformative, fun, and great players, not to mention that Uconn had all three..

 

[EricLA]

Great poll question. I think it is really hard to pick the greatest of all time. Stewie accomplished the most and can do more things that the other 2 can't. Maya has a drive and fire to succeed that is 2nd to none. No one in the history of the game is better at making ALL her teammates better than Dee.

No one can deny that Stewie accomplished the most while in college (except for the scoring title), but how do you pick the GOAT of those 3? Hell if I know.

 

[Wally East]

In terms of offensive production, Stewie and Maya are a clear notch above D, no question. And defensively, is anyone really going to argue that D was better than either Maya or Stewie? (Probably somebody, but they'd be wrong.)

You know how everyone says, "Oooh, if only Shea and Svet hadn't been hurt, then the 2001 national championship was a lock?" If she's the greatest winner of all time and she didn't get it done with juniors Sue Bird, Swin Cash, Tamika Williams, and Ashja Jones? Maybe she's not the greatest winner of all time? Oh, right, D was just a freshman on a team full of vets. So, just like Stewie her freshman year. How did that turn out?

D has significantly more flair than the other two. She'd be killing a team and they would *know* it, often because she'd be letting them know directly Which, I mean, as UConn fans, that was part of what there was to love about her.

Here are their stats on a per-40 minute basis to even out disparities in playing time (best in the category is bolded in red):

stat Stew Moore DT
p/40 25.2 25.9 20.5
r/40 11.00 10.90 6.00
a/40 4.00 4.60 6.10
b/40 3.90 1.70 1.40
s/40 2.27 2.60 1.70
a/to 1.65 1.81 1.84
FG% 52.9 52.5 46.9
3p% 34.8 40.4 39.2
FT% 79.4 79.8 81.9

Here's their stats, excluding their freshmen year, on a per-40 minute basis to even out disparities in playing time:

stat Stew Moore DT
p/40 25.7 26.5 21.0
r/40 11.1 11.1 6.09
a/40 4.59 4.81 6.29
b/40 4.03 1.63 1.38
s/40 2.27 2.77 1.58
a/to 1.93 1.94 1.92
FG% 53.4 52.0 47.5
3p% 35.2 40.0 39.4
FT% 79.8 80.8 81.2

(By the way, look at how much Stewie's assists improve when you exclude her freshman year )

Maya was the best player of the three, though not by much over Stewie. I'm not sure how you could say there's a better winner than Stewie.

 

[Roundball fan]

I can not pick just one. They were all the G.O.A.T. of their time and I am good with that. For me there is no need to choose, they are ours and we are so lucky to have had watched and admired them. Maybe I should pick Geno because he got them to come and they wanted to be the best.

 

[hoophuskee]

I go with Stewie. I happen to believe her impact on both sides was a cut above. I can remember the finals two years ago when Stewie got hurt - Muffett was being interviewed and spoke matter-of-factly that with Stewie out - to paraphrase- "now we can go inside more."

With these 3 imo stats are useless. How can you measure teams not wanting to go inside because Stewart was there? Bill Russell is generally regarded as the one the greatest player's ever. Just go ahead and google best players ever, top 20 ever or best centers ever. You'll find Russell's name near the top on most lists despite not very good numbers other than rebounding. If you think rebounding catapults a player with pretty poor offensive numbers vs many other all-time greats then just look at the best rebounders ever and compare that to the best scorers ever and see the relationship of who gets in the HOF. Are they "all wrong?" If you are great scorer you usually get double-teamed and to start games teams try to figure ways to stop you or slow you down. Do they do that for rebounding?

So throw away the stats with these 3. It's what you value -- I think Stewie brought the most- though all three were - AND REMAIN unbelievably amazing . To me, Muffett's quote says a lot.

 

[Bestiarius]

Three way tie. Each is special in her own unique ways.

 

[Wally East]

So throw away the stats with these 3. It's what you value

Unless, of course, you value stats.

 

[intlzncster]

You know how everyone says, "Oooh, if only Shea and Svet hadn't been hurt, then the 2001 national championship was a lock?" If she's the greatest winner of all time and she didn't get it done with juniors Sue Bird, Swin Cash, Tamika Williams, and Ashja Jones? Maybe she's not the greatest winner of all time? Oh, right, D was just a freshman on a team full of vets. So, just like Stewie her freshman year. How did that turn out?

If the 2001 team had started the year without Shea and Svet, I'm betting they'd have been holding that championship. It's losing them during the season that killed it (especially Shea towards the end).

2012-13 was blessed with no injuries. Subtract Kelly Faris and Bria Hartley from that team and you think they'd win a Championship?

Maya was the best player of the three, though not by much over Stewie. I'm not sure how you could say there's a better winner than Stewie.

I gotta side with Geno in saying it's doubtful neither Maya nor Stewie takes either of those 2003 or 2004 teams to a championship.

End of the day, if there's a gun to my head, and I need one of those kids to either make a big shot or steal a big win, I'm picking D 100 times out of 100.

 

[DaddyChoc]

give me DT any day of the week... and twice on Sunday

 

[intlzncster]

give me DT any day of the week... and twice on Sunday

...3 times on Sunday.

 

[hoophuskee]

Unless, of course, you value stats.

Sure-- but to over-value stats isn't right. Bill Russell is the case in point. Many many players have better individual stats than him. Stewie's intimidation inside can't be measured so we're just supposed to pretend that it didn't exist?

I get it though- you want to say Maya. Someone else wants to say DT. IMO all three are great picks. .

 

[hoophuskee]

If the 2001 team had started the year without Shea and Svet, I'm betting they'd have been holding that championship. It's losing them during the season that killed it (especially Shea towards the end).

2012-13 was blessed with no injuries. Subtract Kelly Faris and Bria Hartley from that team and you think they'd win a Championship?




I gotta side with Geno in saying it's doubtful neither Maya nor Stewie takes either of those 2003 or 2004 teams to a championship.

End of the day, if there's a gun to my head, and I need one of those kids to either make a big shot or steal a big win, I'm picking D 100 times out of 100.

I agree with what you think and what Geno is saying. But Geno is probably making a broad statement. DO you really think the team would be constructed the way it was if they didn't know they had DT as frosh/soph etc. Maya and Stewie would need guards. They had lots of bodies at the 3/4/5 positions. SO ofc they wouldn't win.

I think I agree with what you're saying about 2001. I'm not usre I agree entirely but agree that the injuries during the season are killers. Same thing happened to UCONN men when they lost Moore. ANd I didn't see much of the team when was Shea was a frosh and Tenn took them down. But Shea was a catalyst I think for that team. But for that game - I never watched and didn't watch much wcbb- so I don't know.

 

[DaddyChoc]

with the ball in DT3 hands anything was possible... Maya didn't have handle so she needed a solid PG which she didn't have after Renee left (Tiff nor CD5 could cut it).

Stewie had Mo (the greatest PG in UConn history )

so for me DT3 did the most with less plus she had handle, dribble drive and 3's

of course Stewie wins the defensive battle and Maya was maybe a better rebounder than both (not by much over Stewie)

 

[hoophuskee]

with the ball in DT3 hands anything was possible... Maya didn't have handle so she needed a solid PG which she didn't have after Renee left (Tiff nor CD5 could cut it).

Stewie had Mo (the greatest PG in UConn history )

so for me DT3 did the most with less plus she had handle, dribble drive and 3's

of course Stewie wins the defensive battle and Maya was maybe a better rebounder than both (not by much over Stewie)

1--- Yes DT - anything was possible. She doesn't get enough love for the tremendous rebounder she was for being a sg / pg.

2-- Maya didn't need a solid pg. IMO the difference between May's sr team vs DT's was that her team team had a higher ceiling but a lower floor. DT didn't have a frosh at the pg spot.

3-- With Stewie's long arms on the court- anything was possible. The problem with Stewie is that if she scored inside- it's not as flashy as Maya or DT. Any bad passes - she could scoop them up and still finish with ease.

 

[DaddyChoc]

1--- Yes DT - anything was possible. She doesn't get enough love for the tremendous rebounder she was for being a sg / pg.

2-- Maya didn't need a solid pg. IMO the difference between May's sr team vs DT's was that her team team had a higher ceiling but a lower floor. DT didn't have a frosh at the pg spot.

3-- With Stewie's long arms on the court- anything was possible. The problem with Stewie is that if she scored inside- it's not as flashy as Maya or DT. Any bad passes - she could scoop them up and still finish with ease.

confused me there...

the difference in 2 championships vs 3... besides, DT3 was the point guard (yeah I know, I know... Maria was the PG )

"problem"... how is that a problem, she put the ball in the hoop

 

[hoophuskee]

confused me there...

the difference in 2 championships vs 3... besides, DT3 was the point guard (yeah I know, I know... Maria was the PG )

"problem"... how is that a problem, she put the ball in the hoop

We can agree to disagree. DT was a part-time pg and also she played sg. Sometimes it is best to free a player off the ball so she can move instead of having to do plays on your own. Sure sometimes she started the offense then ball came back too. But imo DT was both imo. So yes imo Conlon was the pg too.

When I referred to "problem" - is that because Stewie makes inside baskets look so easy- it's not as easy to appreciate.

 

[intlzncster]

2-- Maya didn't need a solid pg. IMO the difference between May's sr team vs DT's was that her team team had a higher ceiling but a lower floor. DT didn't have a frosh at the pg spot.

Clearly she did though. It was one of the big reasons why they didn't win the title in her senior year. UCONN was hoping either Lorin Dixon or Caroline Doty was going to be that stud PG, but it didn't quite work out that way.

Another point, I saw all the hacking on Maya, and some on Stewart, but I've never seen anything like the physical abuse DT absorbed, especially towards the end of her career. Teams recognized that no one else on the team could beat them, so they tried to cut beat the head off the dragon.

 

[intlzncster]

I agree with what you think and what Geno is saying. But Geno is probably making a broad statement. DO you really think the team would be constructed the way it was if they didn't know they had DT as frosh/soph etc. Maya and Stewie would need guards. They had lots of bodies at the 3/4/5 positions. SO ofc they wouldn't win.

Definitely wasn't talking about roster construction specifically. Just overall level of talent in the supporting cast.

 

[DaddyChoc]

We can agree to disagree. DT was a part-time pg and also she played sg. Sometimes it is best to free a player off the ball so she can move instead of having to do plays on your own. Sure sometimes she started the offense then ball came back too. But imo DT was both imo. So yes imo Conlon was the pg too.

When I referred to "problem" - is that because Stewie makes inside baskets look so easy- it's not as easy to appreciate.

on her own... which make her soooo special and separate her from the other 2

 

[Sky ball]

Unless, of course, you value stats.

Stats have a lot to do with the other cast members. Each of them on say a CCSU team would score a whole lot more. All them on the SAME team and their production would go down. Sort of like comparing Babe Ruth to Mark McGuire.

 

[Wally East]

Stats have a lot to do with the other cast members. Each of them on say a CCSU team would score a whole lot more. All them on the SAME team and their production would go down. Sort of like comparing Babe Ruth to Mark McGuire.

Part of the argument for D is that she had to lead a team of toddlers in '03 and '04 (and, people, really, those were a bunch of high school All-Americans except for Maria). So, D had more than ample opportunity to score. She had to score because no one else was or could.

If you want to say that D was constrained her freshman year, sure, I can go along with that, which is part of why I supplied the stats excluding the freshman year.

 

[Tenspro2002]

I'm going to hedge here:

I think Maya was the best all-around talent.
I think Stewie had the most decorated/accomplished career.
I think Diana was the ultimate winner.

On that last point, I give Diana the edge largely by the fact that her last two years she had to carry those teams basically all by herself and make clutch plays in winning time. Maya had a better supporting cast but won fewer championships (though her performance in a losing effort in 2011 was nothing short of heroic). Stewie won more, but she also had by far the best supporting cast, and her games were largely non-competitive and so didn't lend themselves to signature clutch moments like Diana had.

 

[Wally East]

On that last point, I give Diana the edge largely by the fact that her last two years she had to carry those teams basically all by herself and make clutch plays in winning time. Maya had a better supporting cast but won fewer championships (though her performance in a losing effort in 2011 was nothing short of heroic). Stewie won more, but she also had by far the best supporting cast, and her games were largely non-competitive and so didn't lend themselves to signature clutch moments like Diana had.

I know it's gauche to quote one's self but I'm plowing ahead with doing just that I posted this a few months ago.

Next four players for '03 after DT:
Jessica Moore, redshirt Soph, Parade High School All-American
Ann Strother, Fr, Naismith HS POY
Barbara Turner, Fr. WBCA HS All-American
Ashley Battle, Soph, WBCA HS All-American

Next four players for '11 Maya
Tiffany Hayes, Jr, Parade and WBCA HS All-American
Bria Hartley, Fr, Parade and WBCA HS All-American
Stefanie Dolson, Fr, McDonald's and Parade HS All-American
Kelly Faris, So, McDonald's HS All-American

Both groups were made up of four HS All-Americans (I'm sure I have missed some players making different AA teams). The only difference in experience is that Jessica Moore sat on the bench for a year as a redshirt but practiced with Swin, Tamika, and Ashja her first year at UConn.

Production:

'03 next four:
39.0 ppg, 21.7 rpg, 7.5 apg

'11 next four:
44.1 ppg, 21.0 rpg, 11.9 apg

A bit of difference in production but not much (except for assists, which kind of makes sense).

Here's the TL;DR for you:

The differences between D's '03 team and Maya's '11 team are minor. In terms of experience, the difference is one redshirt year. In production, the difference is 5 ppg and 4 apg.


I think we can put to rest any idea that D played with a bunch of toddlers and kittens while Maya played with the Lebron, Jordan, Bird, and Magic at their peaks

 

[Lynx23]

"I think we can put to rest any idea that D played with a bunch of toddlers and kittens while Maya played with the Lebron, Jordan, Bird, and Magic at their peaks."

Couldn't have said it any better. You'll never sway those for whom Diana will always be the GOAT, this in spite of the fact that Stewie accomplished more than any other WCBB (or MCBB) player has or probably ever will (and I'm a Maya fan). Diana was great...she turned me on to UCONN women's basketball but I believe her legendary status is supported and reinforced by both her "in your face" attitude and her accomplishments against hated rival Tennessee. Stewie and Maya were (more) quiet assassins, and they were never afforded the opportunity to take on Tennessee. BTW, if one considers career accomplishment to this point, including international play, Maya might easily be considered the GOAT, or eventually she will be.

 

[cbraarj]

Sue Bird said her sr. year that Dee can ave. 30 pts a game if she wanted to.Maria was not a starter until Nicole Wolfe got hurt in 2003.Just because they were high school AA.They werent in college but because of Taurasi they played better than they actually were.Diana had over 2000 points and the career assist leader until this year.The only AA for the Huskies in 2003 and 2004.Stewie had Kml and Mo her Jr.year also Morgan should have been one.Sr.year Mo and Morgan.Nobody in WCBB has ever won like Diana Taurasi and thats the bottom line!