Maya, Stewie, DT: best player versus best winner?

[intlzncster]

Part of the argument for D is that she had to lead a team of toddlers in '03 and '04 (and, people, really, those were a bunch of high school All-Americans except for Maria). So, D had more than ample opportunity to score. She had to score because no one else was or could

Some might have had accolades but it did not translate to the same degree at the college level. For example, Morgan Valley had different AA awards in high school, but she was only an average college player at best. Then you had career destroying injuries to a stud like Wolff. There are other examples, but:

All you had to do is look at how those teams finished after D left. Those girls were very experienced, more so than any other team in the nation, yet failed to finish strongly in the 2 years post D. Those teams (generally) represent the nadir of UCONN WBB over the last 20 years. Didn't truly turn around until Maya (a superlative player) came.

Put another way, you take Maya, DT, and Stewie off their respective teams and played games among the rest, 03 and 04 would have gotten handled.

 

[HoopsFan21]

Who else makes half court shots with time expiring against their rival? Who else makes backward overhead no look passes? That player is the best we've ever had. Maya and Stewie are great too, but the things they do other players can do too - shoots 3s, block shots, etc. Look at a DT highlight reel - there's no one else doing the kind of stuff she does or did on a regular basis in her prime.

 

[Tenspro2002]

All you had to do is look at how those teams finished after D left. Those girls were very experienced, more so than any other team in the nation, yet failed to finish strongly in the 2 years post D. Those teams (generally) represent the nadir of UCONN WBB over the last 20 years. Didn't truly turn around until Maya (a superlative player) came.

Yeah, this argument is what does it for me. After Diana graduated, the complementary players "led" us to two seasons that were basically unacceptable by this program's standards. Yes, some of that falls on the failure of recruits that were brought in at the same time, but the performance of those teams made Diana's contribution stand out in stark relief.

In contrast, post-Maya we still had a Final Four-caliber team. KML helped as a freshman, but besides her, we still had All-Americans at other positions (Hartley, Dolson).

 

[Wally East]

Who else makes half court shots with time expiring against their rival? .

Sue Bird And, then, in the same game? A full-court drive for a game-winning lay-up in five seconds.

 

[Wally East]

Here's fun trivia

Which team did D lose to in consecutive seasons?

 

[hoophuskee]

Clearly she did though. It was one of the big reasons why they didn't win the title in her senior year. UCONN was hoping either Lorin Dixon or Caroline Doty was going to be that stud PG, but it didn't quite work out that way.

Another point, I saw all the hacking on Maya, and some on Stewart, but I've never seen anything like the physical abuse DT absorbed, especially towards the end of her career. Teams recognized that no one else on the team could beat them, so they tried to cut beat the head off the dragon.

Clearly she didn't.

One of the other big reasons why they lost was because Dolson got into foul trouble which meant Maya had to paly center which meant UCONN got annihilated on the glass. Maya wound up with 36 points - with an EFG% of 55%. Geno has said that two times during that season he told his team to focus on getting Maya going early - and they were vs Stanford and the last game vs ND.

UCONNHUSKIES.COM :: University of Connecticut Huskies Official Athletic Site :: Women's Basketball

 

[hoophuskee]

Definitely wasn't talking about roster construction specifically. Just overall level of talent in the supporting cast.

IMO he just spoke off the top of his head like he usually does when the questions aren't that important to him. IMO there si no way h is thinking in his head "well let's see - if Stewie had similar guard to DT's simalar forwards, and wings that can shoot like so-and so . . ."

 

[Roger G]

I can't decide who I think was the best. There are good arguments for all of them. But no one has mentioned how silky smooth Maya was. I award a lot of credit for aesthetic play.

 

[Lynx23]

I can't decide who I think was the best. There are good arguments for all of them. But no one has mentioned how silky smooth Maya was. I award a lot of credit for aesthetic play.

Yes, her tip passes, cross-court shot blocks, and finger roll layups were things of beauty.

 

[HoopsFan21]

Sue Bird And, then, in the same game? A full-court drive for a game-winning lay-up in five seconds.

What game was that? I wasn't old enough to remember or watch DT or Bird when they were in college (or at least not old enough to be into college sports) so all I know of them is what I read on here or from highlight clips on youtube. I would be interested it seeing video of that.

 

[Wally East]

Stats have a lot to do with the other cast members. Each of them on say a CCSU team would score a whole lot more. All them on the SAME team and their production would go down. Sort of like comparing Babe Ruth to Mark McGuire.

So, would you enjoy a comparison of D's two seasons with great players vs. Maya's vs. Stewie's?

 

[Wally East]

What game was that? I wasn't old enough to remember or watch DT or Bird when they were in college (or at least not old enough to be into college sports) so all I know of them is what I read on here or from highlight clips on youtube. I would be interested it seeing video of that.

The 2001 Big East Championship. This should start just at the end of the first half but the whole thing is exciting. It's *THE* game to watch from that season.

 

[intlzncster]

IMO he just spoke off the top of his head like he usually does when the questions aren't that important to him. IMO there si no way h is thinking in his head "well let's see - if Stewie had similar guard to DT's simalar forwards, and wings that can shoot like so-and so . . ."

He's said it a number of times over the years. Not a one time thing.

 

[intlzncster]

Clearly she didn't.

One of the other big reasons why they lost was because Dolson got into foul trouble which meant Maya had to paly center which meant UCONN got annihilated on the glass. Maya wound up with 36 points - with an EFG% of 55%. Geno has said that two times during that season he told his team to focus on getting Maya going early - and they were vs Stanford and the last game vs ND.

UCONNHUSKIES.COM :: University of Connecticut Huskies Official Athletic Site :: Women's Basketball

36 points, yes. She played well. And effective FG is fine, but she was only 14-30 shooting overall. Not good for Maya. The other problem was the two assists. She wasn't making her teammates better. If she had had a great PG to spread the ball around, she'd have gotten better shots, and other players more points.

And of course the goal was to get Maya going early. She was the best player. And it wasn't gonna come from the PG position. Maya shot in volume because UCONN had no choice.

 

[NoelAustin]

Maya was the best player. Her record at UConn was 150-4, which is the best ever. Two of those losses were in national semifinals, but Maya played extremely well in those two losses. In 2008 Renee Montgomery decided to win the game by running fast breaks ending with Renee shooting from beyond the arc. She shot terribly. In 2011 Tiffany Hayes did about as poorly. Maya could have won four NCs with some help from her teammates.

 

[hoophuskee]

36 points, yes. She played well. And effective FG is fine, but she was only 14-30 shooting overall. Not good for Maya. The other problem was the two assists. She wasn't making her teammates better. If she had had a great PG to spread the ball around, she'd have gotten better shots, and other players more points.

And of course the goal was to get Maya going early. She was the best player. And it wasn't gonna come from the PG position. Maya shot in volume because UCONN had no choice.

I don't agree with this at all. While I agree to a certain point about shooting - of which I'm about to reply to Noel Austin which I disagree with one of his comments - - 14-30 from Maya WAS outstanding. If a player for a game shoots a "lousy 40%" - 4-10 from the field- that on the surface isn't very good. This is similar to your comment of Maya 14-30. But if that player shot 4-10 from 3 point range- that's 12 points. A player that doesn't shoot any 3's has to shoot 6-10 to get the same 12 points.

While you say "She needed a great pg" to spread the ball- I say no way. I remember more than one p0layer coming out to defend her - and the defense "selling out on her" because she was hitting and such a threat. By her being such a threat from 3-- she opened up the floor allowing her team to have the opportunity to do well. Sometimes freshmen pg's don't perform well under pressure. Hartely didn't. And Hayes didn't either. If Maya's guards paly just decent - like for example Conlon who seemed to do often enough- UCONN probably wins.

And again I disagree with you in your implication that Maya NEEDED to be FORCED to get the ball. As Geno said -- TWO TIMES that year he tried to FORCE Maya to get the ball early and both times it resulted in losses. It shouldn't have been forced. That's the point.

I do agree with you that Maya had to shoot in high volume but it was because her freshman pg and Tiff Hayes had disastrous games along with the coach making the decision to get Maya going early. Didn't need to do that.

 

[hoophuskee]

Maya was the best player. Her record at UConn was 150-4, which is the best ever. Two of those losses were in national semifinals, but Maya played extremely well in those two losses. In 2008 Renee Montgomery decided to win the game by running fast breaks ending with Renee shooting from beyond the arc. She shot terribly. In 2011 Tiffany Hayes did about as poorly. Maya could have won four NCs with some help from her teammates.

Maya Moore did NOT have a good game in 2011. While you mention Monty taking many shots Maya took "more." But Maya was also shooting too many 3's - she was 3-11 from 3 with entire game. Stanford played with a 3 guard offense while UCON went with two bigs and Maya at the sf. Monty shot miserably but May's 3pt game was bad too - which meant our inside game wasn't the impact it should have been.

If you are going to count the 20 points and 9 rebounds to mean "she played well" that's just an opinion that had starts MEAN EVERYTHING. But as UCONN fans we all know better than that. over the years with all the championships in which many of our players didn't have the best stats- they still got the best awards. ANd several are considered all time great.
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Monty's numbers are right up there with Bird, MoJeff, and Rizzotti- so is she better than all 3 or almost equal to Bird or MoJeff? Dt's numbers aren't as good as Sales, KML or Bascum - so are all three better?

Point is that stats don't tell the entire picture. Moore's game in her frosh year had little impact - Stanford was able ot paly small ball- and Maya wasn't abel to help our inside get many shots. Charde and Tina were a combined 8-13 inside while Monty was atrocious- Maya took almost as many 3's as combined Tina and Charde got for 2's. And Maya eend up taking 19 shots. And with her superior size she could only muster 1 free throw for the entire game? We're supposed to ignore all this because she got 20-9? SO all the teams we've beaten in which players like the girl from USF - we should look at her to being superior to MoJeff because she cores more points and gets more rebounds? Stats don't tell the entire picture.

 

[hoophuskee]

He's said it a number of times over the years. Not a one time thing.

And he doesn't talk off the top of his head more than once?

Those are "passing comments."

BIG difference.

 

[winitall]

If the 2001 team had started the year without Shea and Svet, I'm betting they'd have been holding that championship. It's losing them during the season that killed it (especially Shea towards the end).

2012-13 was blessed with no injuries. Subtract Kelly Faris and Bria Hartley from that team and you think they'd win a Championship?




I gotta side with Geno in saying it's doubtful neither Maya nor Stewie takes either of those 2003 or 2004 teams to a championship.

End of the day, if there's a gun to my head, and I need one of those kids to either make a big shot or steal a big win, I'm picking D 100 times out of 100.

I agree with you, I think it's all about her leadership!

 

[NoelAustin]

Maya Moore did NOT have a good game in 2011. While you mention Monty taking many shots Maya took "more." But Maya was also shooting too many 3's - she was 3-11 from 3 with entire game. Stanford played with a 3 guard offense while UCON went with two bigs and Maya at the sf. Monty shot miserably but May's 3pt game was bad too - which meant our inside game wasn't the impact it should have been.

If you are going to count the 20 points and 9 rebounds to mean "she played well" that's just an opinion that had starts MEAN EVERYTHING. But as UCONN fans we all know better than that. over the years with all the championships in which many of our players didn't have the best stats- they still got the best awards. ANd several are considered all time great.
\
Monty's numbers are right up there with Bird, MoJeff, and Rizzotti- so is she better than all 3 or almost equal to Bird or MoJeff? Dt's numbers aren't as good as Sales, KML or Bascum - so are all three better?

Point is that stats don't tell the entire picture. Moore's game in her frosh year had little impact - Stanford was able ot paly small ball- and Maya wasn't abel to help our inside get many shots. Charde and Tina were a combined 8-13 inside while Monty was atrocious- Maya took almost as many 3's as combined Tina and Charde got for 2's. And Maya eend up taking 19 shots. And with her superior size she could only muster 1 free throw for the entire game? We're supposed to ignore all this because she got 20-9? SO all the teams we've beaten in which players like the girl from USF - we should look at her to being superior to MoJeff because she cores more points and gets more rebounds? Stats don't tell the entire picture.

I must disagree - Maya DID have a good game in 2008. Field goal percentage can be misleading as a metric because it does not distinguish 2s from 3s. In the 2008 Stanford semifinal, Maya had 19 field goal attempts which resulted in 19 points scored. To say that is not good is, not good. The rest of the team had 50 field goal attempts which resulted in 40 points scored. In the season-ending loss in 2011 Maya had 30 field goal attempts which resulted in 33 points scored. That is good offensive basketball. The rest of the team had 29 field goal attempts which resulted in 23 points scored.

Let's look for comparison at the last two season-ending wins for Diana. In 2003 against Tennessee, Diana had 15 field goal attempts resulting in 20 points scored. The rest of the team had 34 field goal attempts resulting in 40 points scored. In 2004 Diana had 11 field goal attempts for 15 points; the others had 40 for 40 points. By this one significant measure alone, Diana had better offensive support in her two last season-ending wins than Maya had in her two season-ending losses.

 

[blaqtech]

In terms of offensive production, Stewie and Maya are a clear notch above D, no question. And defensively, is anyone really going to argue that D was better than either Maya or Stewie? (Probably somebody, but they'd be wrong.)

You know how everyone says, "Oooh, if only Shea and Svet hadn't been hurt, then the 2001 national championship was a lock?" If she's the greatest winner of all time and she didn't get it done with juniors Sue Bird, Swin Cash, Tamika Williams, and Ashja Jones? Maybe she's not the greatest winner of all time? Oh, right, D was just a freshman on a team full of vets. So, just like Stewie her freshman year. How did that turn out?

D has significantly more flair than the other two. She'd be killing a team and they would *know* it, often because she'd be letting them know directly Which, I mean, as UConn fans, that was part of what there was to love about her.

Here are their stats on a per-40 minute basis to even out disparities in playing time (best in the category is bolded in red):

stat Stew Moore DT
p/40 25.2 25.9 20.5
r/40 11.00 10.90 6.00
a/40 4.00 4.60 6.10
b/40 3.90 1.70 1.40
s/40 2.27 2.60 1.70
a/to 1.65 1.81 1.84
FG% 52.9 52.5 46.9
3p% 34.8 40.4 39.2
FT% 79.4 79.8 81.9

Here's their stats, excluding their freshmen year, on a per-40 minute basis to even out disparities in playing time:

stat Stew Moore DT
p/40 25.7 26.5 21.0
r/40 11.1 11.1 6.09
a/40 4.59 4.81 6.29
b/40 4.03 1.63 1.38
s/40 2.27 2.77 1.58
a/to 1.93 1.94 1.92
FG% 53.4 52.0 47.5
3p% 35.2 40.0 39.4
FT% 79.8 80.8 81.2

(By the way, look at how much Stewie's assists improve when you exclude her freshman year )

Maya was the best player of the three, though not by much over Stewie. I'm not sure how you could say there's a better winner than Stewie.

Loosing 4 games vs 5 games........ playing in every game that set the longest winning streak in basketball men or women..seems like a winner to me.

 

[hoophuskee]

I must disagree - Maya DID have a good game in 2008. Field goal percentage can be misleading as a metric because it does not distinguish 2s from 3s. In the 2008 Stanford semifinal, Maya had 19 field goal attempts which resulted in 19 points scored. To say that is not good is, not good. The rest of the team had 50 field goal attempts which resulted in 40 points scored. In the season-ending loss in 2011 Maya had 30 field goal attempts which resulted in 33 points scored. That is good offensive basketball. The rest of the team had 29 field goal attempts which resulted in 23 points scored.

Let's look for comparison at the last two season-ending wins for Diana. In 2003 against Tennessee, Diana had 15 field goal attempts resulting in 20 points scored. The rest of the team had 34 field goal attempts resulting in 40 points scored. In 2004 Diana had 11 field goal attempts for 15 points; the others had 40 for 40 points. By this one significant measure alone, Diana had better offensive support in her two last season-ending wins than Maya had in her two season-ending losses.

We can agree to disagree. Maya did not have a good game in 2008. Shooting 3-11 from three is bad- that is not misleading. The efg% for that is 40.91%. While her shooting 5-13 from 3 in her senior year is pretty darn good. The efg% for that is over 57%. It's even better when you think about it because Notre Dame was selling out trying to stop Amazing Maya.

Further -- as Maya was throwing up bricks from 3 - shooting 3 for 11 --- her teammates were able to score inside. Yet Maya only had 3 assists vs 4 turnovers. SO her response was to "take more 3's?" She only shot ONE ft vs a team that was playing small. IMO you are too focused on "points scored" as the dominant measure as to which player was better. But 3-11 from 3 is not misleading. Her teammates were able to score inside and Maya wasn't able to help her teammates get the ball more. UCONN had a decided advantage with size and Maya (along with Renee) couldn't get the ball enough to the bigs. That can't be called "good" imo. The bigs were effective if they could only get the ball.