Louisville's Move To The ACC Suddenly 'Not A Done Deal'

[CAHUSKY]

You really think ESPN is going to tell the ACC that? I don't. But, thats just me.

Can you provide 1 reason why they wouldn't? What is the ACC's leverage in the "negotiation"? They already own the rights and don't have any other bidders.

 

[bingethinker]

I said that the financial advantage was the only advantage. But the Big Ten has always had more money, and they regularly lose the Rose Bowl and rarely are a threat for a National Championship in football, and have had a long dry spell in basketball. Ohio State is rolling through that schedule and will probably sit behind some 1 loss teams in the BCS because the Big Ten is such a weak football conference.

The high school football talent concentration has moved out of the Big Ten states and into the ACC, SEC, and PAC 12 states along with Texas. Maryland obviously did not make this move for football. They are leaving the football recruiting hotbeds behind to go to the Midwest where they have no recruiting presence or experience, and the quality high schol talent is diminishing in the midwest. Ask Ron Zook at Illinois. He's an expert on it. He's been at Florida and at Illinois. It's less of an issue with Urban Myer because there is some talent in Ohio, and he'll get it all.

In basketball, Maryland will find some good competition with Michigan, Michigan State, Ohio State, and Indiana. But they were not hurting for basketball competition in the ACC, especially now. So this move was not made for basketball either.

Anyone who thinks Maryland's decision to leave the ACC for the Big Ten was made because of the football and basketball rivalries is mistaken. A seat at the Big Ten's table >>>> A seat at the ACC's table. The ACC is a fine athletic conference, but the Big Ten defines institutions.

 

[NickyNewark]

Out of respect for Nicky, all I will say is congrats to Rutgers on your B1G invite. I wish y'all good luck, too.

I've always noted and appreciated the fact that your posts are considerate of everyone and w/o malice or arrogance.

 

[billybud]

Can you provide 1 reason why they wouldn't? What is the ACC's leverage in the "negotiation"? They already own the rights and don't have any other bidders.

The ACC can go to neutral arbitration if the two parties can not agree to value increase in the look-ins. That is a contractual stipulation.

 

[btstimpy]

Anyone who thinks Maryland's decision to leave the ACC for the Big Ten was made because of the football and basketball rivalries is mistaken. A seat at the Big Ten's table >>>> A seat at the ACC's table. The ACC is a fine athletic conference, but the Big Ten defines institutions.

Oooh, Fancy. The Big Ten has you impressed. They are the best of the Midwest.

 

[SouthronCross]

Can you provide 1 reason why they wouldn't? What is the ACC's leverage in the "negotiation"? They already own the rights and don't have any other bidders.

Yeah, simple business sense. ESPN and the ACC have a good business relationship. One that has been, and, needs to be, beneficial for both.

You keep mentioning leverage. There isn't any need for it. With the 5- and 10-year look-ins already written into the ACC's media deal, there will be automatic discussions about more money. If the league is able to deliver for them, they will get paid. Network or no network.

 

[SouthronCross]

Anyone who thinks Maryland's decision to leave the ACC for the Big Ten was made because of the football and basketball rivalries is mistaken. A seat at the Big Ten's table >>>> A seat at the ACC's table. The ACC is a fine athletic conference, but the Big Ten defines institutions.

The ACC takes a back seat to nobody when it comes to academics. Not even the B1G. And, don't give me the Louisville excuse. Nebraska is no academic heavyweight, either.

The B1G has always had more money than the ACC. That is nothing new.

The only possible fly in the ointment is if...IF...the B1G's revenue projections fall short of expectations.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

The ACC takes a back seat to nobody when it comes to academics. Not even the B1G. And, don't give me the Louisville excuse. Nebraska is no academic heavyweight, either.

The B1G has always had more money than the ACC. That is nothing new.

The only possible fly in the ointment is if...IF...the B1G's revenue projections fall short of expectations.

Overall, the ACC is top heavy (PAC is ever more top heavy) and weaker on the backend while the B1G is stronger in the middle according to US News. I included Johns Hopkins in the B1G as is it as an ‘associate’ similar to ND is to the ACC ( I did not include U Chicago as they do not play in any of the B1G’s sports nor did I include Navy in the American as it is typically not ranked). For any school not ranked, I used the next lowest overall ranking available 202).
ACC: 1) Duke #7, 2) Notre Dame #18, 3) Virginia #23, 4) Wake Forest #23, 5) UNC #30, 6) BC #31, 7) Georgia Tech #36, 8) U Miami #47), 9) Clemson #62, 10) Syracuse #62, 11) Pittsburgh #62, 12) Virginia Tech #69, 13) Florida St #91, 14) NC St #101, 15) Louisville #161
B1G: 1) Johns Hopkins #12, 2) Northwestern #12, 3) Michigan #28, 4) Penn St #37, 5) Illinois #41, 6) Wisconsin #41, 7) Ohio St #52, 8) Maryland #62, 9) Purdue #68, 10) Rutgers #69, 11) Minnesota #69, 12) Michigan St #73, 13) Iowa #73, 14) Indiana #75, 15) Nebraska #101
As a FYI, the other power 5 are as follows:
XII: 1) Texas #52, 2) Baylor #75, 3) TCU #82, 4) Iowa St #101, 5) Kansas #101, 6) Oklahoma #101, 7) Kansas St #135, 8) Oklahoma St #142, 9) Texas Tech #161, 10) West Virginia #170
PAC: 1) Stanford #5, 2) Cal #20, 3) UCLA #23, 4) USC #23, 5) U Washington #52, 6) Colorado #86, 7) Oregon #109, 8) Arizona #119, 9) Utah #121, 10) Washington St #128, 11) Arizona St #142, 12) Oregon St #142
SEC: 1) Vanderbilt #17, 2) Florida #49, 3) Georgia #60, 4) Texas A&M #69, 5) Alabama #86, 6) Auburn #91, 7) Missouri #97, 8) Tennessee #101, 9) South Carolina #112, 10) Kentucky #119, 11) Arkansas #128, 12) LSU #135, 13) Mississippi St #142, 14) Ole Miss #150
And of course, the American: 1) Tulane #52, 2) UConn #57, 3) SMU #60, 4) Tulsa #86, 5) Temple #121, 6) Cincinnati #135, 7) Central Florida #170, 8) South Florida #170, 9) East Carolina #181, 10) U Houston #190, 11) U Memphis NR #202
UConn’s ranking is the third highest FBS school not aligned with a P5 conference, Rice (#18) is the highest, followed by Tulane (#52)
Overall ranking of conferences by average score: 1) B1G 54.2, 2) ACC 54.9, 2) PAC 80.3, 3) SEC 96.9, 4) XII 112.0, 5) American 129.4

 

[billybud]

Oh yeah...John Hopkins in the B1G...now that is a stretch.

The Big Ten site doesn't even have their logo up with the others....

Get outa heah!

 

[DarthGrumpy]

Oh yeah...John Hopkins in the B1G...now that is a stretch.

The Big Ten site doesn't even have their logo up with the others....

Get outa heah!

The B1G announced in June of 2013 that Johns Hopkins, which is AAU, would join the B1G as an affiliate member in men’s and women’s lacrosse beginning in the 2014/5 academic year.
http://www.bigten.org/sports/m-lacros/spec-rel/060313aah.html
Doubt it will show-up on anyone’s website until after this spring’s (2014) college lacrosse season. I am sure this made Maryland very happy.

 

[billybud]

affiliate member...???? For Lacrosse only..LOL

Maybe the ACC could add as an "affiliate member" Notre Dame. Oops...I guess that we can call the Irish affiliates.

Let's move on and add Harvard as an affiliate in Rowing only.

 

[specialisthusky]

There is one major difference. Johns Hopkins is a member of the cic like others members of the B1G.

ND just parks its sports in the Acc and has no real affiliation outside of sports with the other institutions.

 

[billybud]

Notre Dame is a member of the ACCIAC...

I personally don't see that much value in a CIC, ACCIAC, etc...it is a nice talking point...

The only area that I have any personal knowledge of in the ACCIAC is the Travelling Scholar Program...where ACC Ph.D candidates may access courses, labs, and intellectual resources at other ACC institutions...and the Study Abroad collarorations where any ACC student can apply for and be accepted in another institution's study abroad programs.

 

[AZHuskiePop]

affiliate member...???? For Lacrosse only..LOL

Maybe the ACC could add as an "affiliate member" Notre Dame. Oops...I guess that we can call the Irish affiliates.

Let's move on and add Harvard as an affiliate in Rowing only.

If you add Yale and Harvard for Rowing you could lay claim to be the conference that originated intercollegiate sports.
While your at it can lay claim to the Defending NCAA hockey championships.
You also increase your claim to number of NCAA football championships exponentially.
Not to mention increasing your acedemic average

However since Harvard and Yale only view Duke as a somewhat inferior peer and view Fla State and Clemson as akin to Southern Connecticut State U. I don't think its going to happen
As for this being a sports board your wrong.
This is a CR board and acedemics play a huge roll.

If it didn't Boise would be in the Pac 12.

 

[B1GALUM]

The CIC at this time consists of 15 institutions: 12 current Big Ten members + Maryland + Rutgers + University of Chicago.
http://www.cic.net/about-cic/member-universities

Johns Hopkins is not yet a member of the CIC. "Johns Hopkins will join the Big Ten as an associate sport-affiliate member in men's lacrosse only as approved by the Big Ten Council of Presidents/Chancellors (COP/C). Hopkins plans to contact the Committee of Institutional Cooperation (CIC), which features all Big Ten members and the University of Chicago, about joining the prestigious academic consortium."
http://www.gopsusports.com/sports/m-lacros/spec-rel/060313aac.html

 

[billybud]

And if academics were the real player in CR...why you'd have the Ivies...Penn, Dartmouth and additionally schools like Emory as players.

When it comes to football. the Ivies aren't yet Old Dominion or Richmond.

Academics matter when a conference wants to make them matter...Like the ACC not taking WVU and then taking Louisville....

There is a phenomenon on sports boards...a corollary of sorts.

The more non competitive a team...the more talk on the board about academics. Why?

Because when you are so obviously deficient in an area, susbstitute another area to toot about.

I don't brag about my looks...I flash my Mensa card.

 

[specialisthusky]

Well my point was both wrong and fell flat on its face. I had never even heard of the ACCIAC.

 

[billybud]

Well my point was both wrong and fell flat on its face. I had never even heard of the ACCIAC.

Most students in the ACC haven't heard of it either....

 

[btstimpy]

Well my point was both wrong and fell flat on its face. I had never even heard of the ACCIAC.

It's modeled after the CIC. In fact Donna Shalala, who is now at Miami but used to be the President of Wisconsin, was heavily involved in helping the ACC put it together and grow it over the last decade or so. It seems to be focusing a lot on international studies and research projects. It holds competitions between research projects.

For the day to day it does exactly what the CIC does (i.e. integrating libraries, purchasing, course access to all the ACC schools for degree credit, access to the online courses at all the campuses, etc.).

 

[btstimpy]

Notre Dame is a member of the ACCIAC...

I personally don't see that much value in a CIC, ACCIAC, etc...it is a nice talking point...

The only area that I have any personal knowledge of in the ACCIAC is the Travelling Scholar Program...where ACC Ph.D candidates may access courses, labs, and intellectual resources at other ACC institutions...and the Study Abroad collarorations where any ACC student can apply for and be accepted in another institution's study abroad programs.

The Big Ten does a better job of marketing the CIC than the ACC is doing with the ACCIAC. All the Big Ten folks talk about the CIC like it is some huge advantage in collaboration, when in fact if you look at it closely, with the ACCIAC the ACC does essentially the same thing. Big Ten schools are larger than ACC schools and many have bigger research budgets than ACC schools due to the size of the Big Ten schools. Each of the schools are responsible for their own grants, and the use the CIC when they apply for them as enhancing their ability to deliver on the projects. The ACC does the same thing with the ACCIAC and has all the same capability and talking points for collaberation.

The Big Ten has the marketing pitch down cold and is much better at the pitch than the ACC. They talk about it constantly. It's like Certs with a drop of "Retsin". Well "Retsin" is just the adhesive that holds the candy together. Yet all their commercials said, "with a drop of Retsin". Most people who watched had no idea what "Retsin" was, but they bought Certs "Because it has a drop of Retsin". Every other competitive product had retsin too, and it made no difference. But Marketing is an art. The ACC has to improve on marketing the ACCIAC.

 

[B1GALUM]

The Big Ten does a better job of marketing the CIC than the ACC is doing with the ACCIAC. All the Big Ten folks talk about the CIC like it is some huge advantage in collaboration, when in fact if you look at it closely, with the ACCIAC the ACC does essentially the same thing. Big Ten schools are larger than ACC schools and many have bigger research budgets than ACC schools due to the size of the Big Ten schools. Each of the schools are responsible for their own grants, and the use the CIC when they apply for them as enhancing their ability to deliver on the projects. The ACC does the same thing with the ACCIAC and has all the same capability and talking points for collaberation.

The Big Ten has the marketing pitch down cold and is much better at the pitch than the ACC. They talk about it constantly. It's like Certs with a drop of "Retsin". Well "Retsin" is just the adhesive that holds the candy together. Yet all their commercials said, "with a drop of Retsin". Most people who watched had no idea what "Retsin" was, but they bought Certs "Because it has a drop of Retsin". Every other competitive product had retsin too, and it made no difference. But Marketing is an art. The ACC has to improve on marketing the ACCIAC.

If the ACCIAC is modeled after the CIC and has a similar role, then why yet another jab at the Big Ten - in this case for marketing the CIC - when the ACC has a similar collaboration - of which it is proud?

 

[btstimpy]

If the ACCIAC is modeled after the CIC and has a similar role, then why yet another jab at the Big Ten - in this case for marketing the CIC - when the ACC has a similar collaboration - of which it is proud?

I actually thought it was a compliment to the Big Ten. I think they do a hell of a good job marketing the CIC. My point is that the CIC is not the advantage that the Big Ten has on the ACC in reality anymore. Perception wise it might still be because it is better marketed. That's obvious because the poster above had never heard of the ACCIAC. He's sure heard of the CIC because everyone associated with the Big Ten talks about it. There is nothing wrong with the ACCIAC, but the schools need to talk about it more. I caveat this by pointing out that the ACC now has to integrate 4 more schools into the ACCIAC. That takes time and effort. The Big Ten has an advantage in that 11 schools have been doing this for a long time. They are integrating 3 new ones with Nebraska having a head start.

The real advantage that the Big Ten has over the ACC is the Big Ten Network. The ACC understands that and is hopefully addressing it. There are skeptics on this board and in this thread about it, but I think that with sports programming attracting the advertizing dollars more than drama and reality TV, there is plenty of ACC content not making it onto the three main ESPN channels that could easily fill up the programming on another channel and do well. And I know it's being worked on.

 

[justinslot]

I mean--the CIC certainly is a marketing tool, but it's also an expression of the fact that the B1G is composed of graduate research-focused institutions. The ACC is only partially composed of that type of university, so it's a bit harder to market a research consortium when all your schools are not research-oriented.

Again, it is the institutional unity that is going to continue to be the B1G's advantage over the ACC. The ACC is Big Easting itself with every new addition (by necessity, it's not like they were stealing schools from anywhere else.)

 

[btstimpy]

I mean--the CIC certainly is a marketing tool, but it's also an expression of the fact that the B1G is composed of graduate research-focused institutions. The ACC is only partially composed of that type of university, so it's a bit harder to market a research consortium when all your schools are not research-oriented.

Again, it is the institutional unity that is going to continue to be the B1G's advantage over the ACC. The ACC is Big Easting itself with every new addition (by necessity, it's not like they were stealing schools from anywhere else.)

With 7 former Big East schools in the ACC now it's hard to not have some former Big East identity. But it is not Syracuse and UConn with 6 catholic schools that don't play football either. The original Big East is what I still think of as the Big East. The current ACC is certainly a merger of the ACC and parts of the Big East.

The ACCIAC is used for graduate research certainly, but it is also used for undergraduate programs like the study abroad stuff that Billy Bud was talking about. There is a lot of diversity within the ACC between public and private schools and Catholic schools. It is not as cookie cutter as the Big Ten certainly. You have Virginia Tech's engineering school doing biometric engineering degrees using Wake Forest's medical school. I like the diversity, and it is working well. That's also more Eastern culture too to me, tons of smaller colleges and universities in a concentrated geographic area vs a few huge state schools in a geographic area.

 

[B1GALUM]

With 7 former Big East schools in the ACC now it's hard to not have some former Big East identity. But it is not Syracuse and UConn with 6 catholic schools that don't play football either. The original Big East is what I still think of as the Big East. The current ACC is certainly a merger of the ACC and parts of the Big East.

The ACCIAC is used for graduate research certainly, but it is also used for undergraduate programs like the study abroad stuff that Billy Bud was talking about. There is a lot of diversity within the ACC between public and private schools and Catholic schools. It is not as cookie cutter as the Big Ten certainly. You have Virginia Tech's engineering school doing biometric engineering degrees using Wake Forest's medical school. I like the diversity, and it is working well. That's also more Eastern culture too to me, tons of smaller colleges and universities in a concentrated geographic area vs a few huge state schools in a geographic area.

It sounds like the ACCIAC is more undergraduate focused than the CIC.
“Our focus is primarily undergraduate,” said David G. Brown, part-time IAC coordinator and provost emeritus at Wake Forest. “Their (the CIC) focus is more primarily graduate and research, as I understand it, and it is certainly more extensive than we do at the ACCIAC.”
http://collegepark.patch.com/groups/schools/p/maryland-set-to-join-big-ten-academic-alliance

 

[btstimpy]

My apologizes in advance to UCFBfan for the argument ...

I am objective enough to recognize that Florida State has a compelling argument to be ranked ahead of Ohio State. Florida State has a fantastic team. However, the ACC as a conference is not exactly a football juggernaut. If Alabama goes undefeated and Florida State goes undefeated, then there is your national championship game and I am fine with that pairing and would love to see it. However, Ohio State is going to be fine If we remain unbeaten in our regular season schedule and then face and defeat a one loss and ranked Michigan State team, with one of the nation's best defenses, in the B1G championship. We will have a great shot at playing in the national championship game if Alabama or Florida State stumble. I think a 1 loss SEC team is about the only 1 loss team that could make an argument to be ahead of an undefeated Florida State, Ohio State or Baylor.

Here's an article on it from Cleveland. http://www.cleveland.com/osu/index.ssf/2013/11/ohio_state_buckeyes_bcs_standi.html

I'm not smart enough to analyze the polls. I'm just repeating what I'm hearing everywhere. I don't even like polls. I like the playoff that the FCS has and think FBS should do the same thing. And FBS is starting to do that because there is a lot more attention to who is the national champion these days than ever before. But the Bowl System generates a lot of money, and it is tough to give up.

 

[btstimpy]

It sounds like the ACCIAC is more undergraduate focused than the CIC.
“Our focus is primarily undergraduate,” said David G. Brown, part-time IAC coordinator and provost emeritus at Wake Forest. “Their (the CIC) focus is more primarily graduate and research, as I understand it, and it is certainly more extensive than we do at the ACCIAC.”
http://collegepark.patch.com/groups/schools/p/maryland-set-to-join-big-ten-academic-alliance

It does have a lot of undergraduate stuff included like the international student exchange stuff. Donna Shalala would be a good source to explain the differences having been a President at both a Big Ten and ACC University and really helping establish the ACCAIC. There is graduate stuff too in the ACCIAC. I don't know if she's written anything about the comparison.

 

[btstimpy]

I keep saying there is no ACC Network because there is no ACC Network and the conference doesn't own the rights to anything that might enable a network.

I would dearly love the ACC to begin their own network because they'd likely stumble over the fact that their closest member to New York City is Boston College and that's not a good thing.

However, our circumstances have turned us in the sports world's most perfect realists. (Ignore the people who think we're a cinch for the Big Ten - they sniff glue.)

The ACC would have to buy rights back. They would have to have ESPN create a network that largely would be in competition with the SEC Network...which ESPN owns.

And so, in keeping with our perfect nightmare, the ACC Network is a fantasy.

I don't see the ACC network being in competition with the SEC Network if the advertizers want sports content to spend their money on because it is one thing people don't really TIVO to skip the adds because it is live. With the 25 sports that the ACC sponsors there is more than enough content that doesn't make it onto ESPN, ESPN2, and ESPNU that the network and channel could potentially make money on. The ACC needs to get back some football and basketball content from Raycom, but a lot of other sports could help drive a channel along with Coaching shows and specials that the ACC Digital Network is producing. It is up and running.

I also know that ESPN views the SEC as its premier football league, and it views the ACC as its premier basketball league. Basketball would be a motivation for a channel as well. Not all of the basketball games make it onto ESPN, ESPN2, and ESPNU either. So I don't see the level of concern about the two channels ACC and SEC coinciding. The distribution challenges with the Cable Providers will be there without a doubt. But each conference has faced those.

 

[B1GALUM]

Here's an article on it from Cleveland. http://www.cleveland.com/osu/index.ssf/2013/11/ohio_state_buckeyes_bcs_standi.html

I'm not smart enough to analyze the polls. I'm just repeating what I'm hearing everywhere. I don't even like polls. I like the playoff that the FCS has and think FBS should do the same thing. And FBS is starting to do that because there is a lot more attention to who is the national champion these days than ever before. But the Bowl System generates a lot of money, and it is tough to give up.

I did read that article. I think Alabama and Florida State are absolutely the two best teams in the country and will make for a great national championship game. I could see Baylor jumping Ohio State if it remains undefeated given their remaing schedule in the Big 12. However, I think Stanford, with having a loss to Utah, will have a difficult time making that jump if Ohio State and Michigan State win out and face in the B1G championship and Ohio State wins the game. Regardless, I share your desire for a playoff system.

 

[NickyNewark]

Wow,where do you ACC guys find the time to spend here following CR or promoting the ACC with vigor ?Hours,days,weeks,monthes?Is this a job? Who needs all this elitist ACC overload of so-called info? Please cut us a break here in the NE with the elitist arrogance of the "greatness of the ACC"! One thing for BB promoting his team(FSU) or Bstimpy (UVa)but now all ACC access, all the time?Please, theres a thin line between info and propaganda.Lets get back to camping or geneaology if you're not talking Uconn FB or CR !