Liv vs Cox | Page 2 | The Boneyard

Liv vs Cox

Lauren Cox, much like Kelly Faris, Gabby Williams, and Kia Nurse, doesn't have particularly eye-popping numbers. But remember, those players did so much on the defensive end (much of which will never show up in any box score), provided leadership, and made the offense run smoothly. think of how many shots are altered or just plain not taken because Lauren Cox is standing between a player and the basket. Think of how Baylor uses Cox at the high post to facilitate the offense. She's a steadying force to say the least. Nobody's saying ONO isn't a great player with plenty of potential, but to say she's better than Lauren Cox is unfair to both players. Each player can be great without taking away from the other.
 
bballnut90 said:
Yeah, she did have a great season. She was the backbone and leader of the best defensive team in the country primed to make a run for back to back titles. Stats dont paint the full picture. Some fans seem quick to forget Gabby Williams being an AA lock two years ago despite averaging just 11ppg. Or Sue Bird being a consensus NPOY averaging 14 ppg.
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Again, she played in 22 games and missed two of the three top-15 teams they faced.

If she averaged 4 points, 2 rebounds, and shot 30% would you put her 1st team AA because she's a "leader?"

Gabby was as good a player as there was in the country as a senior. She shot 61% from the field, had the exact same rebound rate as Cox did this year despite being 5 inches shorter, and lapped Cox in assist and steal rate. And was probably an even more impactful defender considering all the positions she covered.
 
Sluconn Husky said:
Again, she played in 22 games and missed two of the three top-15 teams they faced.

If she averaged 4 points, 2 rebounds, and shot 30% would you put her 1st team AA because she's a "leader?"

Gabby was as good a player as there was in the country as a senior. She shot 61% from the field, had the exact same rebound rate as Cox did this year despite being 5 inches shorter, and lapped Cox in assist and steal rate. And was probably an even more impactful defender considering all the positions she covered.
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Being a leader and the anchor of a title absolutely is worth merit. And her stats, while not eye popping, are solid.

Cox averaged 12.5 points, 8.4 rebounds, 3.6 assists, 2.7 blocks and 1.6 turnovers on 46% shooting.

In the game they did play against good competition, Cox put up 16 points, 6 rebounds, 4 blocks, 4 assists and held ONO to 0 points, 6 boards, 3 fouls and 1 block on 0-8 shooting. And her team won by 16 points on the road.

Defense and intangibles dont show up on a stat sheet either. She was the best defensive post in the country and her team finished 2nd in the country in scoring defense (51.6/game), 2nd in rebound margin, 8th in blocks, 2nd in A/TO ratio, and first in scoring margin. She was the biggest catalyst in all of those stats for Baylor besides maybe A/TO where she had a 2.3 A/TO ratio, good for top 30 in the nation and the only point-guard there.

Furthermore, Baylor absolutely deserves to have someone on the top 2 AP teams considering the season they had. The roster was balanced with five players averaging between 10-14ppg. Cox was the obvious pick since considering her impact on both ends. You bring up Gabby being as good as anyone in the country as a senior, same can be said for Cox (aside from Ionescu). Cox deserves her honors.
 
bballnut90 said:
Being a leader and the anchor of a title absolutely is worth merit. And her stats, while not eye popping, are solid.

Cox averaged 12.5 points, 8.4 rebounds, 3.6 assists, 2.7 blocks and 1.6 turnovers on 46% shooting.

In the game they did play against good competition, Cox put up 16 points, 6 rebounds, 4 blocks, 4 assists and held ONO to 0 points, 6 boards, 3 fouls and 1 block on 0-8 shooting. And her team won by 16 points on the road.
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She had an okay game against UConn, missed the South Carolina and Indiana games.

And while she is an excellent defender, she's arguably not even the best on her team (Richards).

bballnut90 said:
You bring up Gabby being as good as anyone in the country as a senior, same can be said for Cox (aside from Ionescu). Cox deserves her honors.
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But....Cox wasn't as good as anyone in the country this year. She's had better seasons.
 
Statistics are often misleading in basketball. Cox clearly gets the edge in my view over ONO and in the view of the AP. That is not to say that ONO will not be a better player than Cox when ONO is a senior. They are two different types of players in really two different positions. However, if we got a chance to play Baylor for the second time in the Big Dance, we come out on top based upon how we evolved as a team and our defensive and offensive movement.
 
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DaBball said:
I’d say Brewer was one of the better bigs this year, and she performed really, really well against Cox and Baylor both games this year.
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Agreed 100% outplayed Cox from start to finish .
 
tomcat said:
This seems silly to me. Let's put Cox on the floor against Houston, Wichita, Cincinnati and Tulane and see what her statistics look like then.
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Are you suggesting the feats of, say, Collier, Samuelson, Stewart, Jefferson, Tuck, Williams, Nurse, among others are not valid because of the conference schedule in the American?

Cox's game log from this season is here under stats. The Big 12, while clearly better than the American, is not exactly murderer's row. Add in the three awful non-conference games.


Lauren Cox - Women's Basketball - Baylor University Athletics

Lauren Cox (15) F - • 2020 FIRST TEAM ALL-AMERICAN (USBWA, AP, WBCA, JOHN WOODEN) • 2020 SENIOR CLASS AWARD ALL-AMERICAN • 2020 USBWA PAT SUMMITT AWARD FOR COURAGE •
baylorbears.com baylorbears.com
 
If Cox did not have a terrfiic season then thats fair , but in no way shape or fashion did Nelson-Ododa come close to a terrific season . She got better towards the end but Cox vs ONO right now is just not a discussion with leverage no matter how you slice it .
 
My first memory of Cox was an age group championship game, playing for USA, and we were recruiting her. She was like a woman playing against girls. By far the best player on the floor. Did everything. I was very disappointed we didn’t get her to come here, and knew wherever she went would be a championship team.

I thought Liv played well enough against Baylor, but she didn’t get much help from most of the others (CD was the exception).
 
bballnut90 said:
She's not a player that requires a lot of shots plus she looks to get others involved if the game isnt competitive. Cox isnt one to have a great stat line but she's the type of kid who will win titles because of how unselfishly she plays and always puts the team first. She's proven she can put a team on her back when needed and has no problem deferring to others when it suits the team. Defensively she is the best post to come through since Stewart or maybe even Griner. Outstanding shot blocker and just doesnt let others get going against her. Never needs weakside help for a double team. She thoroughly dominated Nelson-Ododa head to head so I'm not sure why this is a discussion. Rebounding she is very good, 8.4 per game is solid for a center who spends a lot of time in the high post offensively. Defensively her presence inside causes teams to take a lot of 3pt shots which lead to long rebounds that she isnt going to get. Her presence doesn't show up on a stat sheet for things like this but is a major reason why Baylor was one of the best defensive teams in the nation the past 2 years.

Baylor likely plays a much more competitive game against SC or wins if Cox is there. Egbo really struggled and Cooper took on too big of a load which led to poor decision making. Cox is a strong leader and wouldve kept Cooper's decision making in check while slowing down Boston. Aside from that game, Baylor was great without her but she wouldve made a difference.

I know it wasnt this season but I'm surprised you're low on her after she dominated Oregon a year ago. Was hands down the best player in the Final Four last year.

That said, her numbers werent great so I think 2nd team would've been an acceptable spot for her, but I'm glad the voters recognized her worth and all she brings to the table.
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Agree 100%..really isn't a comparison
 
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Sluconn Husky said:
She had an okay game against UConn, missed the South Carolina and Indiana games.

And while she is an excellent defender, she's arguably not even the best on her team (Richards).




But....Cox wasn't as good as anyone in the country this year. She's had better seasons.
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16 points, 6 boards, 4 assists, 4 blocks on the road at UCONN while her holding her opposition scoreless on 0-8 shooting...that's an okay game? Gimme a break.

She was injured those games and her presence was clearly missed vs. Sc. Not sure what you're arguing there.

And she's the best post defender the game has seen in years. No one controls the paint like her. Claiming Richards is a better defender doesnt diminish this fact. I dont think anything either of us say will change the other's mind so I'll end it at that.
 
bballnut90 said:
16 points, 6 boards, 4 assists, 4 blocks on the road at UCONN while her holding her opposition scoreless on 0-8 shooting...that's an okay game? Gimme a break.

She was injured those games and her presence was clearly missed vs. Sc. Not sure what you're arguing there.
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She was 6-15 against UConn. Six rebounds in 40 minutes against a smaller team. Yes, okay.

She didn't play against South Carolina. Why is she getting credit for what she might have done when she didn't because she didn't play? This is like saying Morgan Tuck should've been on one of the AA teams her sophomore year because everyone knows what she "would" have done had she played.

If I gave you her stats and ONO's stats but didn't tell you who the players were, I kinda doubt this conversation would've even occurred.
 
Statistics do not lie..!!
if it says you were a 45% shooter on a given year or day, guess what you are.
We can have our favorite players based on the eye test, but the numbers are indisputable facts

With regards to games missed, that only impacts overall totals when comparing the productivity of two players. Hence why coaches pay attention to the averages, rebounds per game, blocks per game etc.

To determine who is a better defensive player or team those same statistics are used, such as which team held their opponents to the lowest scoring average, created the most turnovers and which players had the most registered blocks, steals, defensive rebounds on average per season..

So whenever done, despite what others might think the statistics should decide who had a better season.
Since it is a seasonal award...
 
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HuskeyinSC said:
Jemelle
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I was referring to Cox' spot on the 1st team AA, not ONO's future improvement. Though it will be interesting to see if Elliott remains on the staff and what happens to JL.
 
Ewecon said:
Lots of doubt in my mind. Good player? Absolutely. 2nd team AA? Yup. 1st team All-American? No way. Not based on her numbers.
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If you only use numbers, then only mid-major players will be on your list.
 
Sluconn Husky said:
What are you using instead? How many times did you watch Cox play this season?
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Since there is little else to do, I'll bite. Is there anyone out there that believes one of my favorite players, ONO, had a better season than Cox? The question is not a math exercise - who among you felt ONO played better this past season than Cox?
 
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HopJim said:
Since there is little else to do, I'll bite. Is there anyone out there that believes one of my favorite players, ONO, had a better season than Cox? The question is not a math exercise - who among you felt ONO played better this past season than Cox?
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Didn’t Cox Completely Lock down ONO???? Plus ONO’s IQ and passing is no where near the level of cox.
 
DEvJ said:
Didn’t Cox Completely Lock down ONO???? Plus ONO’s IQ and passing is no where near the level of cox.
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ONO's passing is very near Cox' level. She had a chance to end up with more assists than any UConn center save for Lobo--assuming one considers her a center--without the season interruption. She had a better assist rate than Cox did as a sophomore.
 
HopJim said:
Since there is little else to do, I'll bite. Is there anyone out there that believes one of my favorite players, ONO, had a better season than Cox? The question is not a math exercise - who among you felt ONO played better this past season than Cox?
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I only saw Cox play a couple of times which I'm guessing is about the average for non-Baylor fans. I think what's happening here is that the expectations put on UConn players, especially highly touted ones, are so high that if they aren't POY candidates it feels like they've struggled. ONO's numbers are better than Cox' in most categories on a per-minute basis. But UConn fans watched ONO, saw her ups and downs, hoped for consistent brilliance, didn't get it, and view her season through that prism.
 
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Sluconn Husky said:
I only saw Cox play a couple of times which I'm guessing is about the average for non-Baylor fans. I think what's happening here is that the expectations put on UConn players, especially highly touted ones, are so high that if they aren't POY candidates it feels like they've struggled. ONO's numbers are better than Cox' in most categories on a per-minute basis. But UConn fans watched ONO, saw her ups and downs, hoped for consistent brilliance, didn't get it, and view her season through that prism.
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It’s interesting when people wanna talk “numbers”, and then want to ignore the head-to-head numbers.
 
Shades said:
It’s interesting when people wanna talk “numbers”, and then want to ignore the head-to-head numbers.
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I assume you are referring to me. Cox was much better in that game of course, but not sure one game makes a season, however. Walker was 5-20 in that game and struggled against the four toughest defenses she saw this year, yet she was still put on the 1st team.
 
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