Let's talk punt returns

[Jarhead_1775]

@Palatine , does have a point. On a team with 105 players, there isn't a single one he can trust returning punts? I get the OP is the one the board loves to hate but his overall point is a good one. Your playing bend but don't break defense and conservative offense. A punt return once a while would be nice to possibly give our bend but dont' break offense a better chance at points. Diaco does seem to be terrified of turnovers to the point of paralysis sometimes. I'm hopeful that he is improving the team in increments and soon this will be fixed as well.

Ha! You could have 100k jarhead_1775's back there and I assure you it'd be worse.

 

[Skiblets]

I don't think Palatine will mind if I disclose his choice. It's Steve Hashemi.

Nope. He would pick Boyle. Or mr Spock

 

[Palatine]

I love to see so many people defending Diaco punt return scheme. It's heart warming and very illuminating.

Next year when we have four return yards, I'm sure we'll see the threads trumpeting our improvement.

 

[noeynox]

I love to see so many people defending Diaco punt return scheme. It's heart warming and very illuminating.

Next year when we have four return yards, I'm sure we'll see the threads trumpeting our improvement.

I think on some level we have to accept that Diaco was very literal when he said, this was a total tear down and rebuild. I can only resign myself that he hasn't come around to implementing all phases of the rubuild yet.

I never expected his talk to be THAT literal.

 

[SubbaBub]

I think on some level we have to accept that Diaco was very literal when he said, this was a total tear down and rebuild. I can only resign myself that he hasn't come around to implementing all phases of the rubuild yet.

I never expected his talk to be THAT literal.

Yes, it has all the markings of a very meticulous man. We made a bowl game so this is all a bit of extraneous grumbling until we see if it improves next season along with a number of other things.

Depth was surely an issue so I hope the guys red shirting really make an impact on special teams. We shouldn't expect a better record if we get another goose egg on specials next season.

 

[ktuck911]

Do we have anybody on our roster or coming in that can return punts? As constructed, none of our current players could do it.. Instead of having punt returners we had designated fair catchers.. Does that make sense? When the goal of a football team to be complete is to be able to perform on offense, defense and on special teams? I know we're still only going into year 3, but do we have anybody (somebody) we can look towards who could potentially provide that ability to at least having opposing teams fear us with the ability to take it to the house? Just sayin... A designated faircatcher? huh???

 

[Jimmy Serrano]

Do we have anybody on our roster or coming in that can return punts? As constructed, none of our current players could do it.. Instead of having punt returners we had designated fair catchers.. Does that make sense? When the goal of a football team to be complete is to be able to perform on offense, defense and on special teams? I know we're still only going into year 3, but do we have anybody (somebody) we can look towards who could potentially provide that ability to at least having opposing teams fear us with the ability to take it to the house? Just sayin... A designated faircatcher? huh???

That's the point. We don't have that guy on the roster right now. Maybe next year we find someone. Who knows? The roster needs to get fixed. Depth is a big problem. Does anyone think that the staff didn't give every able body a shot in practice? We also need people to block. Again, depth is an issue. It's not a quick fix.

 

[freescooter]

I'm not sure I agree that none of the current roster could return punts. Teams all over America find punt returners. Nick Williams was a receiver. Butler, a defensive back did it if I recall correctly Todman filled in a few times though he mostly returned kicks. I'd like to see one of our young wide outs back there. The Marshall kid was a receiver Wasn't he? I think the basic point is that with a weak offense we can ill afford to leave yards on the field. Whether it was a scheme issue or a talent issue or a depth issue or some combination of all is a legit question, I think.

 

[KOD594]

While we often do not bring back returnable punts, think part of the issue is lack of serious rush on punts as we do not really come in hard, this allows coverage team to just run down field to cover and punter to take their time and get off a strong kick.

 

[ktuck911]

That's the point. We don't have that guy on the roster right now. Maybe next year we find someone. Who knows? The roster needs to get fixed. Depth is a big problem. Does anyone think that the staff didn't give every able body a shot in practice? We also need people to block. Again, depth is an issue. It's not a quick fix.

I hear you on the depth thing bro.. but do we really have a lack of depth at skilled positions such as in the return game? or are we recruiting smart when it comes to that position? It's just as important as the other phases.. a player that can return a punt or has the ability to.. a playmaker type.. IMO, I really don't think our focus was completely there in terms of how we've been recruiting for that part of the game.. You gotta have a playmaker like that, especially with a weak offensive team.. and we've been weak on that side of the ball for a minute... Our games are predicated on field position moreso than most teams because of our inability to be effective consistently... That's why, IMO, you can't just switch a guy who's been a RB coach his entire coaching career, and played it in college, to special teams all of a sudden... So, yes, part of it is coaching (my opinion)...

I just don't care for us being that team coaches use to put coaches in places they've never coached at a higher level of football.. Focus might be there but you're learning to coach the position instead of already knowing how to come across to the players... yeah, you learn something new at what you do everyday.... but this is different...

My two cents...

 

[huskymedic]

That's why, IMO, you can't just switch a guy who's been a RB coach his entire coaching career, and played it in college, to special teams all of a sudden... So, yes, part of it is coaching (my opinion)...

Psst, sorry to ruin the rant but Corley was a QB in College.

I just don't care for us being that team coaches use to put coaches in places they've never coached at a higher level of football.. Focus might be there but you're learning to coach the position instead of already knowing how to come across to the players... yeah, you learn something new at what you do everyday.... but this is different...

My two cents...

Yeah mean like DJ Durkin just did w/ Pete Lembo?

btw... Poindexter, Brown, Wolthausen and Cummings were all ST Coordinators or Asst in the past (on many staffs it's just a tag-on title).

To be clear - Not arguing that we don't need improvements in both the PR/KR aspects.

Here's hoping Skanes or Dixon can contribute next year if they can (and red-shirting is not needed).

 

[Carl Spackler]

Punt catching IMNSHO, is the single most difficult individual responsibility on a football team. Place kicking is the highest mental stress, but the skill is highly repetitive. Every other position involves all kinds of dynamics, but there is nothing like standing in the middle of the field and doing what it takes with your body and hand eye coordination to make a catch of a punt, while 21 people are running full speed at you, and half of them are of the intent to plant you into the ground as hard as they can, but you can't look at where they are, until you catch the ball.

You need players out there, in that position, that are absolutely genetically blessed with the ability to do it, and the fearlessness to do it, otherwise it's going to be a lot of fair catches.

Our win against Tulane - the ability to make fair catches, in bad weather- is a HUGE contributing factor to our win in that game.

 

[ktuck911]

Psst, sorry to ruin the rant but Corley was a QB in College.


Yeah mean like DJ Durkin just did w/ Pete Lembo?

btw... Poindexter, Brown, Wolthausen and Cummings were all ST Coordinators or Asst in the past (on many staffs it's just a tag-on title).

To be clear - Not arguing that we don't need improvements in both the PR/KR aspects.

Here's hoping Skanes or Dixon can contribute next year if they can (and red-shirting is not needed).

Thanks for clearing that up on Corley.. but he was a QB and RB coach.. not special teams.. He's learning on the job here... As for the other 4.. they all coached ST's at one point in their careers.. Why not one of them help lead specials and move Corley back to RB coach, which he already knows? I just don't get us, at the FBS level of football putting a guy in as a first time guy coaching that spot when hasn't done it before... It's like he's learning here to do it for the first time and has never coached that position before... To me that type of guy may not understand the intricacies of the position as well that the a guy with experience there would.. With our margin for error, especially with a weak OL, we should be as strong as we can be at the other spot.. No fooling around with teaching a guy you are paying good money to to learn a new position when winning is just as important as learning... The kids should be doing more learning at this level than the coaches... Never understood why Verducci needed to coach the RBs along with being OC..

 

[Palatine]

Punt catching IMNSHO, is the single most difficult individual responsibility on a football team. Place kicking is the highest mental stress, but the skill is highly repetitive. Every other position involves all kinds of dynamics, but there is nothing like standing in the middle of the field and doing what it takes with your body and hand eye coordination to make a catch of a punt, while 21 people are running full speed at you, and half of them are of the intent to plant you into the ground as hard as they can, but you can't look at where they are, until you catch the ball.

You need players out there, in that position, that are absolutely genetically blessed with the ability to do it, and the fearlessness to do it, otherwise it's going to be a lot of fair catches.

Our win against Tulane - the ability to make fair catches, in bad weather- is a HUGE contributing factor to our win in that game.

Every college team has punt returners and many have multiple punt returners. They are not that hard to find, many skill guys did it in high school. Our problem isn't that we can't find a guy. Our problem is returning punts is not a priority for Diaco. He doesn't want fumbles. That is his obvious priority. He does this at the expense of having a productive return game. It's a choice made by the HC.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Every college team has punt returners and many have multiple punt returners. They are not that hard to find, many skill guys did it in high school. Our problem isn't that we can't find a guy. Our problem is returning punts is not a priority for Diaco. He doesn't want fumbles. That is his obvious priority. He does this at the expense of having a productive return game. It's a choice made by the HC.

You know this how?

Just curious because when Vitale was on the radio show a few weeks ago, he was pretty clear that he had the choice on the field to either make a catch or not, and if making the catch, whether or not to fair catch it. He was actually pretty clear on what kinds of things he was looking for and how he went about making that decision too.

 

[huskymedic]

Thanks for clearing that up on Corley.. but he was a QB and RB coach.. not special teams..

Coach yes, I was only pointing out that as a player in college he was a QB, not a RB.

 

[RedStickHusky]

No, but I don't agree that it's because of the reasons you listed.

You also avoided answering the question... Who on the current team should have been back there? Lemelle was the lesser of the evils but not stellar before he was injured. This is not a plug and play position as you make it out to be.

C'mon man -- When you have our level of talent, of course it is....

 

[RedStickHusky]

@Palatine I'm hopeful that he is improving the team in increments and soon this will be fixed as well.

That has to be the hope, that we've seen the 200-level exam and the return game is a 300-level course.

 

[ktuck911]

Every college team has punt returners and many have multiple punt returners. They are not that hard to find, many skill guys did it in high school. Our problem isn't that we can't find a guy. Our problem is returning punts is not a priority for Diaco. He doesn't want fumbles. That is his obvious priority. He does this at the expense of having a productive return game. It's a choice made by the HC.

I'm on Pal's side with this one... Ray Charles and Stevie Wonder can see that... Hoping we bring in a kid with that type of ability in this incoming class...

 

[Palatine]

You know this how?

Just curious because when Vitale was on the radio show a few weeks ago, he was pretty clear that he had the choice on the field to either make a catch or not, and if making the catch, whether or not to fair catch it. He was actually pretty clear on what kinds of things he was looking for and how he went about making that decision too.

I know it because I watch football. It's not secret sauce, it's obvious his unit doesn't peal back to set up a return. The returner fair catches when he has lots of room to run. When in doubt, the returner sprints away fro the ball like its radioactive.

The question is not how I know, it's how can you not notice? How can you see this with your eyes but trust Vitale is making the decisions? Vital knows what is expected of him. And the 2 yards of punt return yardage all year is another good indicator.

 

[jdb50]

HS running backs Summers and McAllister are 2 players I would name. Robert McClain a former RB was given this job. We didn't return punts because BD did not try to. Against Marshall in the second half we did not rush the punter and our second level defenders let the Marshall players run right by them. Didn't even try and make contact to slow them down. So the returner has to call for a fair catch. I don't care how good a future returner is if we don't block he won't have a chance. If BD had no faith in Vitale to hold onto the ball during a return and wanted him to just focus on making the catch, or didn't want us getting block in the back or holding penalties so be it. Last place nationally is tough to justify.

 

[whaler11]

Every college team has punt returners and many have multiple punt returners. They are not that hard to find, many skill guys did it in high school. Our problem isn't that we can't find a guy. Our problem is returning punts is not a priority for Diaco. He doesn't want fumbles. That is his obvious priority. He does this at the expense of having a productive return game. It's a choice made by the HC.

Yawn. They cycled through some guys and landed on a walk-on who could barely catch the ball.

I guess you can just assume they are complete idiots - but it might just be a bit more nuanced than that.

 

[TheDoggPound]

Thomas
Lemelle
Skanes
Vickers
Herring
McAllister

That's what we're working with.

 

[Palatine]

Yawn. They cycled through some guys and landed on a walk-on who could barely catch the ball.

I guess you can just assume they are complete idiots - but it might just be a bit more nuanced than that.

Brilliant. You were in practice and saw them cycle through guys? Just asking.

 

[whaler11]

Brilliant. You were in practice and saw them cycle through guys? Just asking.

True it's an assumption if they gave the job to walk on other guys got their chance.

Personally I support not using a Summers or Newsome or Thomas in the role because they are too valuable from scrimmage.

I guess I could go with your assumption they are morons and have no idea what they are doing - but like I pointed out we've been down this road before and that assumption proved to be about as wrong as could be. If we were on the old site I could send you all the delightful PMs I had full of comments just like yours in this thread that all proved to be hilariously incorrect.

 

[Jimmy Serrano]

True it's an assumption if they gave the job to walk on other guys got their chance.

Personally I support not using a Summers or Newsome or Thomas in the role because they are too valuable from scrimmage.

I guess I could go with your assumption they are morons and have no idea what they are doing - but like I pointed out we've been down this road before and that assumption proved to be about as wrong as could be. If we were on the old site I could send you all the delightful PMs I had full of comments just like yours in this thread that all proved to be hilariously incorrect.

My life on the BY has come full circle. I've gone from being skewered on here for blasting some of Diaco's decisions last year to being one of his biggest defenders this year.

The notion that the guy is a total and complete idiot and has not given every able bodied kid on the roster a shot to return punts is just so mind numbingly dumb I don't know how to respond to it. I hate the fact that we have Newsome returning KO's, never mind punts.

 

[Nostical]

Vitale was pretty clear that he had the choice on the field to either make a catch or not, and if making the catch, whether or not to fair catch it.

The coach sets the strategy. Even Nick Williams let punts drop or fair caught them at the command of the coaches.

 

[RMS25CT]

@Palatine , does have a point. On a team with 105 players, there isn't a single one he can trust returning punts? I get the OP is the one the board loves to hate but his overall point is a good one. Your playing bend but don't break defense and conservative offense. A punt return once a while would be nice to possibly give our bend but dont' break offense a better chance at points. Diaco does seem to be terrified of turnovers to the point of paralysis sometimes. I'm hopeful that he is improving the team in increments and soon this will be fixed as well.

Its not even about who the returner is. They haven't set up for a return all year. There was generally no blocking scheme, no wall set up. They blocked for 1-2 seconds at the line and that was it. It didn't matter who was back there. It appears that the return man was told to field the punt with a fair catch. Period.

 

[noeynox]

Its not even about who the returner is. They haven't set up for a return all year. There was generally no blocking scheme, no wall set up. They blocked for 1-2 seconds at the line and that was it. It didn't matter who was back there. It appears that the return man was told to field the punt with a fair catch. Period.

You would have to be sitting in the stands with your eyes closed not to see this. There was zero effort to set up returns. That doesn't mean we have a good returner on the roster but there was no effort made in GAMES to find,out.

 

[UCMB88]

Its not even about who the returner is. They haven't set up for a return all year. There was generally no blocking scheme, no wall set up. They blocked for 1-2 seconds at the line and that was it. It didn't matter who was back there. It appears that the return man was told to field the punt with a fair catch. Period.

Noeynox is dead on! Go back and watch tape of our punt returns. There is literally no blocking scheme in place to set up a return. Watch the Marshall game, we have a second tier of three players about 10 yards behind the line of scrimmage. Not sure what their job is as they literally just stand there and watch Marshall players run past them at full speed. It all starts with blocking!!