Lamb Traded To Thunder

[UConn990411]

This is like pointing to a player with a lot of RBIs and saying he's obviously a good baseball player. He was a volume scorer for a Houston team that really didn't have much of anything else. He wasn't efficient, played terrible defense, doesn't have the court vision of Harden (who played the point a lot in OKC), and is injury prone. I think he fits as a nice complimentary player to give them some offense, but at this point he is not even close to what Harden is. That being said, it makes more sense to get a stopgap and potential long-term replacement for Harden, along with a couple picks, than to let him walk for nothing at the end of the season.

...which is why I pointed out that he's a rental being brought in to be the third option. I think he's plenty capable of that if healthy.

 

[caw]

You clearly are just looking at basic stats and have barely watched Martin, first off his scoring numbers have always been nice that's usually the case with most players who take 15 + shots a game. But, the shooting percentages are average to below average for a 2 guard. Martin is a volume scorer which is not what OKC needs, he ranked 46th among shooting guards last season in adjusted field goal percentage while Harden was forth. Then you have the drop off on the defensive end (Martin is by far one of the worst defenders at the 2), and the fact that Martin can not create for others like Harden. The Thunder's on/off court production splits show Harden is their second most valuable player, Martin's in Houston was in the negatives last season and made him Houston's ninth most valuable piece. Even in 2010-2011 Martin was barely positive in on/off court splits. Like I said long term this could be great for OKC if everything pans out but short term they are taking a step back.

It's a bit hard to compare the two even with advanced stats. Martin and Harden were in completely different roles last year and the year before. Take a look at the top 5 scorers for each team (aside from those two).

Houston had:
Scola, Lowry, Dragic, Lee and Parsons. They averaged about 63 PPG among them and really, who on that team needs to be doubled or keyed on by a defense?

OKC had:
Durant, Westbrook, Ibaka, Fisher and Sefolosha. They averaged about 73 PPG among them. Obviously Durant and Westbrook are players that demand double teams and defensive awareness.

Martin had to carry that team and probably isn't suited for that role and I'm sure his PPG will dip on OKC, but his percentages should increase with lowered focus from opposing teams defenses.

It will be interesting to see if Harden can be the man, he's going to be paid as such, so he better produce as such. Harden benefited greatly from playing against subs and having another star player on the floor with him a lot (compared to Martin). I don't believe for a second Harden is more valuable than Westbrook. If Harden were the starter and Westbrook the 6th man, you can bet Westbrooks efficiency would jump and Harden's would fall.

As for defense, well Harden wasn't exactly lighting the world on fire defensively either (against subs). Not to mention he actually had some solid defenders around him, as opposed to Houston last year.

I would like to say I abhor Martin and find Harden overrated (some claim he is a top 3-5 SG).

 

[SlicinNDyson11]

Even if the return isn't all that down the road, Harden would have left at the end of the year anyways, and while they were and are in the discussion as a potential championship team, it's not like they were the favorites with Harden.

True, i was more upset that OKC wouldn't man up and pay Harden. They could have payed him and decided not to, whether they were just too cheap or didn't view Harden as a max player is unknown at this point. But i do agree with what you're saying if management felt they couldn't get a deal done then trade him get something of value in return, which for the long term i think they did. I do find it funny that some people think Martin can supplement Harden as your analogy with Martin was spot on , if OKC can get him to buy into a spot-up shooter role things would work out real well whether Martin will do that is another question.

 

[johnhuskies95]

If you got a job offer that paid you 1.1 million dollars more a year for the next 4 years, you wouldn't take it? Based on fealty to your current job?

So, let's say that you're making a nice, comfy, 100,000 a year right now working at World Corp. Mega Corp offers you 1.2 million a year for the next 4 years. You don't take it because you're a good fit at World Corp.?

Or is your point that Harden is rich, he's already making a lot of money, so he should ignore the fact that he's being underpaid 4.4 f--- million dollars over the next four years, and suck it up "for the team?"

I love the owner. What a genius. He's got his players believing they should all allow him to pay them less so they can "compete," which, of course, means that the owner makes even more money.

What a jaded world in which we live, when I read a man calling another man a "" for not passing up 4.4 million over 4 years so that some sports team somewhere can be marginally better and maybe win some trophy.

He left a team that was a contender because he wanted 4 million dollars more. LeBron, who always gets killed on here, left a max deal to take a lesser deal. And this is his job, so you can try and marginalize it all you want by saying "so that some sports team somewhere can be marginally better and maybe win some trophy", but this is his occupation. Obviously you don't pay a lot of attention to the NBA, the entire reason he wasn't offered more by the Thunder was that the owner couldn't afford to pay the luxury tax. It was about saving money from coming out of the owner's own pocket.

And FTR, I don't at all subscribe to the Obama belief that people who make a lot of money are somehow the most evil people in the world.

 

[SlicinNDyson11]

It's a bit hard to compare the two even with advanced stats. Martin and Harden were in completely different roles last year and the year before. Take a look at the top 5 scorers for each team (aside from those two).

Houston had:
Scola, Lowry, Dragic, Lee and Parsons. They averaged about 63 PPG among them and really, who on that team needs to be doubled or keyed on by a defense?

OKC had:
Durant, Westbrook, Ibaka, Fisher and Sefolosha. They averaged about 73 PPG among them. Obviously Durant and Westbrook are players that demand double teams and defensive awareness.

Martin had to carry that team and probably isn't suited for that role and I'm sure his PPG will dip on OKC, but his percentages should increase with lowered focus from opposing teams defenses.

It will be interesting to see if Harden can be the man, he's going to be paid as such, so he better produce as such. Harden benefited greatly from playing against subs and having another star player on the floor with him a lot (compared to Martin). I don't believe for a second Harden is more valuable than Westbrook. If Harden were the starter and Westbrook the 6th man, you can bet Westbrooks efficiency would jump and Harden's would fall.

As for defense, well Harden wasn't exactly lighting the world on fire defensively either (against subs). Not to mention he actually had some solid defenders around him, as opposed to Houston last year.

I would like to say I abhor Martin and find Harden overrated (some claim he is a top 3-5 SG).

I think the argument of Harden playing against subs is bogus, why? When Harden is on the floor the Thunder average about 112 points per 100 possessions, when Harden is on the bench they score just about 99 points per 100 possessions. The difference is the fourth highest in the NBA among players. Not to mention Harden kept the Thunder offense rolling when Westbrook and Durant, as OKC averaged 109 points per 100 possession with Harden and no Durant and Westbrook on the floor which is better than most NBA teams averages in that category. Also why in the world is Ibaka, Fisher, and Sefolosha being included as offensive compliments all three are extremely limited on the offensive end and can not create for themselves (Ibaka is improving though). Outside of Westbrook, Durant, and Harden OKC has essentially nobody that can create for themselves or others. As for Martin, his supporting cast is not as bad as you are making it out to be Houston went 14-12 without Martin last year and Lowry, Dragic, and Scola are all solid offensive players who were all more valuable last season than Martin. Defensively, i already mentioned Harden wasn't a great defender but Martin is so bad on defense that it will be a major step down. If anything this trade will let everybody know how important Harden was to OKC and if he is truly capable of being a number one option, we don't have to wait very long to see either.

 

[UConn990411]

I think people ignore that Harden split time with Westbrook at PG when they were on the court together, and the offense generally ran smoother through him. He's very Ginobili-esque in that regard.

It's a shame the average member of this board watches about 10 minutes of the NBA per season, because their opinions are likely skewed by Harden's atrocious Finals.

 

[msgordon]

this thread is pretty awful

 

[msgordon]

harden>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>martin

 

[WhereistheDove?]

...which is why I pointed out that he's a rental being brought in to be the third option. I think he's plenty capable of that if healthy.

I completely agree, if they can get him to buy into his role as a purely complementary player, I think he is a decent stop gap, but you said there is minimal falloff from Harden and that is not true in any facet of the game.

 

[Clockshop]

Presti: "We’ve spent a lot of time talking with Kevin Ollie, who were still very close with up at UConn and Kevin had wonderful things to say about this young man, coached him, stayed in contact with him and Kevin understands our environment, Kevin understands what we’re trying to establish and he thinks Jeremy can excel."

http://www.hoopsworld.com/sam-presti-talks-about-the-harden-trade/

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

Obviously you don't pay a lot of attention to the NBA, the entire reason he wasn't offered more by the Thunder was that the owner couldn't afford to pay the luxury tax. It was about saving money from coming out of the owner's own pocket.

The Thunder have done a great job selling themselves as a small market "we do more with less" organization but that's not the reality. They're raking in money hand over fist. They lowballed Harden, could have afforded to pay him much more, and when he said no they dealt him. That's it. He's no more of a for rejecting a well below market deal than Presti is for offering it to him. Presti's no dummy and neither is Harden. And if he takes it and gets dealt in a year, who's the then?

 

[RayRay19]

Presti: "We’ve spent a lot of time talking with Kevin Ollie, who were still very close with up at UConn and Kevin had wonderful things to say about this young man, coached him, stayed in contact with him and Kevin understands our environment, Kevin understands what we’re trying to establish and he thinks Jeremy can excel."

http://www.hoopsworld.com/sam-presti-talks-about-the-harden-trade/

I was actually thinking about that...because I remember how much The Thunder valued KO...great to see KO still has great pull in the NBA...thats awesome!

 

[caw]

I think the argument of Harden playing against subs is bogus, why? When Harden is on the floor the Thunder average about 112 points per 100 possessions, when Harden is on the bench they score just about 99 points per 100 possessions. The difference is the fourth highest in the NBA among players. Not to mention Harden kept the Thunder offense rolling when Westbrook and Durant, as OKC averaged 109 points per 100 possession with Harden and no Durant and Westbrook on the floor which is better than most NBA teams averages in that category. Also why in the world is Ibaka, Fisher, and Sefolosha being included as offensive compliments all three are extremely limited on the offensive end and can not create for themselves (Ibaka is improving though). Outside of Westbrook, Durant, and Harden OKC has essentially nobody that can create for themselves or others. As for Martin, his supporting cast is not as bad as you are making it out to be Houston went 14-12 without Martin last year and Lowry, Dragic, and Scola are all solid offensive players who were all more valuable last season than Martin. Defensively, i already mentioned Harden wasn't a great defender but Martin is so bad on defense that it will be a major step down. If anything this trade will let everybody know how important Harden was to OKC and if he is truly capable of being a number one option, we don't have to wait very long to see either.

Harden is a decent player, starter quality. The Thunder should have an advantage when he is on the floor against subs, in what way does the PPP show this to be flawed. If anything the 112 per 100 possessions shows Harden is better than the subs he is playing against by a considerable amount. This doesn't show he is a top 3-5 SG in the league.

I mentioned the top 5 scorers because it shows the lack of talent behind Martin. If you would prefer to look at the top two on each team, the spread looks worse. Lowry, Dragic, and Scola are decent but not a one demands a double team or more defensive attention than Martin.

As for defense, Harden will look much worse without guys like Ibaka and Perkins behind him. Martin's backline was far inferior.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

Harden is a decent player, starter quality. The Thunder should have an advantage when he is on the floor against subs, in what way does the PPP show this to be flawed. If anything the 112 per 100 possessions shows Harden is better than the subs he is playing against by a considerable amount. This doesn't show he is a top 3-5 SG in the league.

I mentioned the top 5 scorers because it shows the lack of talent behind Martin. If you would prefer to look at the top two on each team, the spread looks worse. Lowry, Dragic, and Scola are decent but not a one demands a double team or more defensive attention than Martin.

As for defense, Harden will look much worse without guys like Ibaka and Perkins behind him. Martin's backline was far inferior.

I just don't understand how you can make the distinction that Harden was playing against the other team's bench players and therefore his numbers were ballooned. The guy was a bench player in only the most technical sense. I haven't looked but I'd imagine he played the third most minutes per game on that team.

 

[johnhuskies95]

The Thunder have done a great job selling themselves as a small market "we do more with less" organization but that's not the reality. They're raking in money hand over fist. They lowballed Harden, could have afforded to pay him much more, and when he said no they dealt him. That's it. He's no more of a for rejecting a well below market deal than Presti is for offering it to him. Presti's no dummy and neither is Harden. And if he takes it and gets dealt in a year, who's the then?

Signing Harden to the deal he wanted would've put the Thunder about 25 million dollars over the luxury tax, and they have to pay 1.50 for every dollar over the tax. They also would've been more than 35 million dollars over the salary cap.

It's extremely hard to justify paying one guy that much when those are the consequences. Especially when they already have two other guys who are under big contracts for a long time.

 

[SlicinNDyson11]

Harden is a decent player, starter quality. The Thunder should have an advantage when he is on the floor against subs, in what way does the PPP show this to be flawed. If anything the 112 per 100 possessions shows Harden is better than the subs he is playing against by a considerable amount. This doesn't show he is a top 3-5 SG in the league.

I mentioned the top 5 scorers because it shows the lack of talent behind Martin. If you would prefer to look at the top two on each team, the spread looks worse. Lowry, Dragic, and Scola are decent but not a one demands a double team or more defensive attention than Martin.

As for defense, Harden will look much worse without guys like Ibaka and Perkins behind him. Martin's backline was far inferior.

To help you understand better ppp when Harden, Westbrook, and Durant are on the floor the Thunder average 112 points per 100 possessions when Harden is off the floor they average 99 points per 100 possessions. How do not understand that the majority of Harden's minutes are against starters? The guy plays 32 minutes a game and all of sudden it's all against the opposing team's bench, really? It's funny you say Martin's backline was inferior because he had Samuel Dalembert and Marcus Camby protecting the rim last season, both of whom are excellent shot blockers, to try and defend Kevin Martin's defense is laughable to say the least. As for the supporting casts nobody is arguing that OKC doesn't have the two better players surrounding Harden, but after that what do they have? Ibaka is developing and raw on offense, Sefolosha is strictly a shooter, ditto to Fisher, Perkins and Collison are limited outside of their top three players OKC was extremely limited on offense last season. Meaning Harden had to do a lot of creating for himself as well as others, now OKC has to bank on Westbrook and Durant to do it all. Also calling Harden a "decent player" is just completely disrespectful, guy struggled in the Finals sure but he had a great season last year and is only getting better.

 

[Huskies4ever]

Harden is a decent player, starter quality. The Thunder should have an advantage when he is on the floor against subs, in what way does the PPP show this to be flawed. If anything the 112 per 100 possessions shows Harden is better than the subs he is playing against by a considerable amount. This doesn't show he is a top 3-5 SG in the league.

I mentioned the top 5 scorers because it shows the lack of talent behind Martin. If you would prefer to look at the top two on each team, the spread looks worse. Lowry, Dragic, and Scola are decent but not a one demands a double team or more defensive attention than Martin.

As for defense, Harden will look much worse without guys like Ibaka and Perkins behind him. Martin's backline was far inferior.

I like Harden. he was a great fit in OKC. We'll see how well he does as the man in Houston. Not making any predictions either way, but no Durant, no Westbrook will hurt him exponentially. I just don't see him as the star on a good to great team. And I watch lots of basketball. If he puts up similar numbers to what Martin put up in the last full season, (23 ppg, solid shooting percentages) the trade's (Harden vs. Martin) a wash.

 

[SlicinNDyson11]

I like Harden. he was a great fit in OKC. We'll see how well he does as the man in Houston. Not making any predictions either way, but no Durant, no Westbrook will hurt him exponentially. I just don't see him as the star on a good to great team. And I watch lots of basketball. If he puts up similar numbers to what Martin put up in the last full season, (23 ppg, solid shooting percentages) the trade's (Harden vs. Martin) a wash.

Martin's percentages haven't been solid since his Sacramento days, but like you said the best part about this is we are all don't have to wait and see. Season's right around the corner and we are all about to find out how valuable Harden really is.

 

[Huskies4ever]

Martin's percentages haven't been solid since his Sacramento days, but like you said the best part about this is we are all don't have to wait and see. Season's right around the corner and we are all about to find out how valuable Harden really is.

True. Martin didn't have anyone to command a double team. Harden did. He won't anymore. He has some young talent around him, but he will be the focus of the opposing team's defense every night. Can he handle it? Houston's gonna struggle big time. Can he handle it? Who knows. I just think these two teams swapped players, and OKC got more in the long run. We'll see what happens.....

 

[champs99and04]

One thing people aren't considering, is that Harden's only been in the league for three years, and is what, 23? Seriously, who has it all figured out after their third year in the league? Why are we shocked that he struggled going up against two of the best 40 players of all-time, and one guy that was playing at a level that only about five guys in the history of the sport have reached? Are we seriously going to throw out his stellar play in the first three rounds because he had a poor finals? Isn't that what we did with LeBron last year? Look how that worked out.

I really don't like this for OKC. Hell, what was stopping them from signing Harden to a max deal, then flipping Ibaka for an Andre Drummond type player? Look at it this way: Durant is arguably one of the best five pure scorers in the history of the game, and Presti has now surrounded him with two shoot first guards. I just can't get behind that.

 

[msgordon]

good post. harden is 23 and if u throw out the legler/kerr types he just had the best TS% of ANY GUARD, EVER

 

[3uconn]

Lamb will wear #11 for the Thunder.

 

[willinphilly]

Signing Harden to the deal he wanted would've put the Thunder about 25 million dollars over the luxury tax, and they have to pay 1.50 for every dollar over the tax. They also would've been more than 35 million dollars over the salary cap.

It's extremely hard to justify paying one guy that much when those are the consequences. Especially when they already have two other guys who are under big contracts for a long time.

Why do you care? Is it your money?

 

[stick]

Signing Harden to the deal he wanted would've put the Thunder about 25 million dollars over the luxury tax, and they have to pay 1.50 for every dollar over the tax. They also would've been more than 35 million dollars over the salary cap.

It's extremely hard to justify paying one guy that much when those are the consequences. Especially when they already have two other guys who are under big contracts for a long time.

That's a lot of BS. I'm not sure if Harden is worth max money, but most of the league was probably willing to give it to him. I can't believe how everyone falls in line with the spin that OKC management is giving. Fans always get suckered when owners claim greed by the players.

Some facts
1)You realize that Houston is going to sign him to a 5 year max contract. 2)OKC could only offer a 4 yr deal as they already had 2 guys on a 5 yr deal. 3)Harden was willing to give up that 5th year ($20 Million) and still come off the bench as long as they gave him that 4 yr max contract. OKC was basically telling Harden to take a "sacrifice" of nearly $30 million, not $5-8 million.

It wasn't Harden's fault that OKC overpaid for Ibaka and Perkins. It was very obvious Harden was more than willing to "sacrifice" financially as well statistically and be a part of a championship team. Based on potential and team chemistry, I can't believe they traded Harden when they had a chance to build a near west dynasty.

 

[dapriest]

Final number:

Thunder offered:
4 year, 53.5 million. Or about 13.4 million a year.

Harden got from Rockets:
5 year, 80 million. Or about 16 million a year.

Over 4 years of the original contract, that'd be about 2.6 million, per year, or about 10 million in total, plus another year at 16 million just for good measure.

[sarcasm on]
What a !
[/sarcasm off]

On a side note, I think the Rockets severely overpaid, but time will tell.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

Final number:

Thunder offered:
4 year, 53.5 million. Or about 13.4 million a year.

Harden got from Rockets:
5 year, 80 million. Or about 16 million a year.

Over 4 years of the original contract, that'd be about 2.6 million, per year, or about 10 million in total, plus another year at 16 million just for good measure.

[sarcasm on]
What a !
[/sarcasm off]

On a side note, I think the Rockets severely overpaid, but time will tell.

Plus, Texas does not have a state income tax.

 

[progrocks]

37 points, 12 assists. At least tonight he played like a max contract player

 

[msgordon]

freakin demar derozan who is terrible just got 4/40...harden is a snapmax. prettay good debut, no one had a 37-12 game all of last year

 

[Waquoit]

It's a bad trade for OKC. They could have waited. The old canard "whoever gets the best player wins the trade" seems to fit here.

 

[aceboon]

freakin demar derozan who is terrible just got 4/40...harden is a snapmax. prettay good debut, no one had a 37-12 game all of last year

seems the only reason for the lockout was so that the owners could get a bigger piece of the basketball related income, they're still giving out the same tty deals they did prior to the lockout