Lamb Traded To Thunder

[James]

Harden was just as important to kd and Westbrook as they were to him . He was being short changed. Harden is an overrated bench player now ? Y'all nuts. However overall I do believe presti pulled a great move getting all those future first rounders plus lamb. Harden is a top 5 sg in the league though IMO despite his struggles against MIAMI.

 

[SlicinNDyson11]

This board truly knows nothing about the NBA.

Martin in 2010-11:
23.5 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 2.5 apg, 1 spg, 43.6% FG, 38.3% 3-pointers, 88.8% FT

And in 2011-12, when he was maybe 70% and Houston was tanking:
17.1 ppg, 2.7 rpg, 2.8 apg, 0.7 spg, 41.3% FG, 34.7% 3-pointers, 89.4% FT (in 31 mpg)

Martin is turning 30 in February, so it's not unreasonable to expect him to return to for this season. If he does, he's at most a marginal drop off from Harden.

And at the end of the day, he's only a one-year rental being brought in to be a third option. Combine that with Lamb and two potential mid-1st round picks, and that trade makes all the sense in the world for OKC.

You clearly are just looking at basic stats and have barely watched Martin, first off his scoring numbers have always been nice that's usually the case with most players who take 15 + shots a game. But, the shooting percentages are average to below average for a 2 guard. Martin is a volume scorer which is not what OKC needs, he ranked 46th among shooting guards last season in adjusted field goal percentage while Harden was forth. Then you have the drop off on the defensive end (Martin is by far one of the worst defenders at the 2), and the fact that Martin can not create for others like Harden. The Thunder's on/off court production splits show Harden is their second most valuable player, Martin's in Houston was in the negatives last season and made him Houston's ninth most valuable piece. Even in 2010-2011 Martin was barely positive in on/off court splits. Like I said long term this could be great for OKC if everything pans out but short term they are taking a step back.

 

[SlicinNDyson11]

Harden was just as important to kd and Westbrook as they were to him . He was being short changed. Harden is an overrated bench player now ? Y'all nuts. However overall I do believe presti pulled a great move getting all those future first rounders plus lamb. Harden is a top 5 sg in the league though IMO despite his struggles against MIAMI.

Very well said, a lot of people are about to find out how valuable Harden really was to this OKC team.

 

[Kitaman]

The one good thing about this trade is that I have instantly become a Thunder fan!

 

[SirTravKnight]

Thabeet and now Lamb? Plus a team that was easy to root for before they grabbed two UConn guys? The Thunder are my new favorite team.

I remember reading an article not too long ago about the presence Kevin Ollie brought to the OKC locker room in his stint with the team and how that presence was still felt after he left. I wonder if this has anything to do with bringing in a couple of UCONN guys and with Lamb a player who was also coached by Ollie.

If we get a Heat vs Thunder finals I'm gonna have a hard time not rooting for Ray

 

[Brochacho]

Martin is a 13 million dollar expiring contract. He is also a volume scorer off the bench, something they need. He's no all-star but he is a great fit in OKC, and lets not forget Thabo/Lamb are also good options at the 2 so whether he succeeds or not is irrelevant in my opinion.

 

[SlicinNDyson11]

Martin is a 13 million dollar expiring contract. He is also a volume scorer off the bench, something they need. He's no all-star but he is a great fit in OKC, and lets not forget Thabo/Lamb are also good options at the 2 so whether he succeeds or not is irrelevant in my opinion.

I would respectively disagree that Martin is what OKC needs, remember Harden only averaged about 10 shots a game last season and was extremely efficient. That was a main cog in OKC's offense, it's efficiency, with Martin their efficiency will most definitely go down as he is a noted high volume scorer and as stated in previous posts defensively Martin is also a step in the wrong direction. Long Term i like the fit for Lamb, we all saw what he did as a secondary option his freshman season, he can be efficient and possibly turn into a slight downgrade from Harden with an outside chance to be the better player if he can consistently improve his ball handling. This is one of those deals where three years down the road OKC will either look like geniuses or idiots, all depends on Lamb and the picks. Due to Presti's track record it's hard to bet against the guy, but for just this season I'm not liking this deal for OKC.

 

[ford82]

I think it is Presti really liking Lamb more than Lamb being a throw in. If I was Jeremy I would be ecstatic. Jeremy's game is more potent as a second or third option. I am sure OKC thinks Jeremy could be great for them long term.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

This board truly knows nothing about the NBA.

Martin in 2010-11:
23.5 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 2.5 apg, 1 spg, 43.6% FG, 38.3% 3-pointers, 88.8% FT

And in 2011-12, when he was maybe 70% and Houston was tanking:
17.1 ppg, 2.7 rpg, 2.8 apg, 0.7 spg, 41.3% FG, 34.7% 3-pointers, 89.4% FT (in 31 mpg)

Martin is turning 30 in February, so it's not unreasonable to expect him to return to for this season. If he does, he's at most a marginal drop off from Harden.

And at the end of the day, he's only a one-year rental being brought in to be a third option. Combine that with Lamb and two potential mid-1st round picks, and that trade makes all the sense in the world for OKC.

This is like pointing to a player with a lot of RBIs and saying he's obviously a good baseball player. He was a volume scorer for a Houston team that really didn't have much of anything else. He wasn't efficient, played terrible defense, doesn't have the court vision of Harden (who played the point a lot in OKC), and is injury prone. I think he fits as a nice complimentary player to give them some offense, but at this point he is not even close to what Harden is. That being said, it makes more sense to get a stopgap and potential long-term replacement for Harden, along with a couple picks, than to let him walk for nothing at the end of the season.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

I would respectively disagree that Martin is what OKC needs, remember Harden only averaged about 10 shots a game last season and was extremely efficient. That was a main cog in OKC's offense, it's efficiency, with Martin their efficiency will most definitely go down as he is a noted high volume scorer and as stated in previous posts defensively Martin is also a step in the wrong direction. Long Term i like the fit for Lamb, we all saw what he did as a secondary option his freshman season, he can be efficient and possibly turn into a slight downgrade from Harden with an outside chance to be the better player if he can consistently improve his ball handling. This is one of those deals where three years down the road OKC will either look like geniuses or idiots, all depends on Lamb and the picks. Due to Presti's track record it's hard to bet against the guy, but for just this season I'm not liking this deal for OKC.

Even if the return isn't all that down the road, Harden would have left at the end of the year anyways, and while they were and are in the discussion as a potential championship team, it's not like they were the favorites with Harden.

 

[UConn990411]

This is like pointing to a player with a lot of RBIs and saying he's obviously a good baseball player. He was a volume scorer for a Houston team that really didn't have much of anything else. He wasn't efficient, played terrible defense, doesn't have the court vision of Harden (who played the point a lot in OKC), and is injury prone. I think he fits as a nice complimentary player to give them some offense, but at this point he is not even close to what Harden is. That being said, it makes more sense to get a stopgap and potential long-term replacement for Harden, along with a couple picks, than to let him walk for nothing at the end of the season.

...which is why I pointed out that he's a rental being brought in to be the third option. I think he's plenty capable of that if healthy.

 

[caw]

You clearly are just looking at basic stats and have barely watched Martin, first off his scoring numbers have always been nice that's usually the case with most players who take 15 + shots a game. But, the shooting percentages are average to below average for a 2 guard. Martin is a volume scorer which is not what OKC needs, he ranked 46th among shooting guards last season in adjusted field goal percentage while Harden was forth. Then you have the drop off on the defensive end (Martin is by far one of the worst defenders at the 2), and the fact that Martin can not create for others like Harden. The Thunder's on/off court production splits show Harden is their second most valuable player, Martin's in Houston was in the negatives last season and made him Houston's ninth most valuable piece. Even in 2010-2011 Martin was barely positive in on/off court splits. Like I said long term this could be great for OKC if everything pans out but short term they are taking a step back.

It's a bit hard to compare the two even with advanced stats. Martin and Harden were in completely different roles last year and the year before. Take a look at the top 5 scorers for each team (aside from those two).

Houston had:
Scola, Lowry, Dragic, Lee and Parsons. They averaged about 63 PPG among them and really, who on that team needs to be doubled or keyed on by a defense?

OKC had:
Durant, Westbrook, Ibaka, Fisher and Sefolosha. They averaged about 73 PPG among them. Obviously Durant and Westbrook are players that demand double teams and defensive awareness.

Martin had to carry that team and probably isn't suited for that role and I'm sure his PPG will dip on OKC, but his percentages should increase with lowered focus from opposing teams defenses.

It will be interesting to see if Harden can be the man, he's going to be paid as such, so he better produce as such. Harden benefited greatly from playing against subs and having another star player on the floor with him a lot (compared to Martin). I don't believe for a second Harden is more valuable than Westbrook. If Harden were the starter and Westbrook the 6th man, you can bet Westbrooks efficiency would jump and Harden's would fall.

As for defense, well Harden wasn't exactly lighting the world on fire defensively either (against subs). Not to mention he actually had some solid defenders around him, as opposed to Houston last year.

I would like to say I abhor Martin and find Harden overrated (some claim he is a top 3-5 SG).

 

[SlicinNDyson11]

Even if the return isn't all that down the road, Harden would have left at the end of the year anyways, and while they were and are in the discussion as a potential championship team, it's not like they were the favorites with Harden.

True, i was more upset that OKC wouldn't man up and pay Harden. They could have payed him and decided not to, whether they were just too cheap or didn't view Harden as a max player is unknown at this point. But i do agree with what you're saying if management felt they couldn't get a deal done then trade him get something of value in return, which for the long term i think they did. I do find it funny that some people think Martin can supplement Harden as your analogy with Martin was spot on , if OKC can get him to buy into a spot-up shooter role things would work out real well whether Martin will do that is another question.

 

[johnhuskies95]

If you got a job offer that paid you 1.1 million dollars more a year for the next 4 years, you wouldn't take it? Based on fealty to your current job?

So, let's say that you're making a nice, comfy, 100,000 a year right now working at World Corp. Mega Corp offers you 1.2 million a year for the next 4 years. You don't take it because you're a good fit at World Corp.?

Or is your point that Harden is rich, he's already making a lot of money, so he should ignore the fact that he's being underpaid 4.4 f--- million dollars over the next four years, and suck it up "for the team?"

I love the owner. What a genius. He's got his players believing they should all allow him to pay them less so they can "compete," which, of course, means that the owner makes even more money.

What a jaded world in which we live, when I read a man calling another man a "" for not passing up 4.4 million over 4 years so that some sports team somewhere can be marginally better and maybe win some trophy.

He left a team that was a contender because he wanted 4 million dollars more. LeBron, who always gets killed on here, left a max deal to take a lesser deal. And this is his job, so you can try and marginalize it all you want by saying "so that some sports team somewhere can be marginally better and maybe win some trophy", but this is his occupation. Obviously you don't pay a lot of attention to the NBA, the entire reason he wasn't offered more by the Thunder was that the owner couldn't afford to pay the luxury tax. It was about saving money from coming out of the owner's own pocket.

And FTR, I don't at all subscribe to the Obama belief that people who make a lot of money are somehow the most evil people in the world.

 

[SlicinNDyson11]

It's a bit hard to compare the two even with advanced stats. Martin and Harden were in completely different roles last year and the year before. Take a look at the top 5 scorers for each team (aside from those two).

Houston had:
Scola, Lowry, Dragic, Lee and Parsons. They averaged about 63 PPG among them and really, who on that team needs to be doubled or keyed on by a defense?

OKC had:
Durant, Westbrook, Ibaka, Fisher and Sefolosha. They averaged about 73 PPG among them. Obviously Durant and Westbrook are players that demand double teams and defensive awareness.

Martin had to carry that team and probably isn't suited for that role and I'm sure his PPG will dip on OKC, but his percentages should increase with lowered focus from opposing teams defenses.

It will be interesting to see if Harden can be the man, he's going to be paid as such, so he better produce as such. Harden benefited greatly from playing against subs and having another star player on the floor with him a lot (compared to Martin). I don't believe for a second Harden is more valuable than Westbrook. If Harden were the starter and Westbrook the 6th man, you can bet Westbrooks efficiency would jump and Harden's would fall.

As for defense, well Harden wasn't exactly lighting the world on fire defensively either (against subs). Not to mention he actually had some solid defenders around him, as opposed to Houston last year.

I would like to say I abhor Martin and find Harden overrated (some claim he is a top 3-5 SG).

I think the argument of Harden playing against subs is bogus, why? When Harden is on the floor the Thunder average about 112 points per 100 possessions, when Harden is on the bench they score just about 99 points per 100 possessions. The difference is the fourth highest in the NBA among players. Not to mention Harden kept the Thunder offense rolling when Westbrook and Durant, as OKC averaged 109 points per 100 possession with Harden and no Durant and Westbrook on the floor which is better than most NBA teams averages in that category. Also why in the world is Ibaka, Fisher, and Sefolosha being included as offensive compliments all three are extremely limited on the offensive end and can not create for themselves (Ibaka is improving though). Outside of Westbrook, Durant, and Harden OKC has essentially nobody that can create for themselves or others. As for Martin, his supporting cast is not as bad as you are making it out to be Houston went 14-12 without Martin last year and Lowry, Dragic, and Scola are all solid offensive players who were all more valuable last season than Martin. Defensively, i already mentioned Harden wasn't a great defender but Martin is so bad on defense that it will be a major step down. If anything this trade will let everybody know how important Harden was to OKC and if he is truly capable of being a number one option, we don't have to wait very long to see either.

 

[UConn990411]

I think people ignore that Harden split time with Westbrook at PG when they were on the court together, and the offense generally ran smoother through him. He's very Ginobili-esque in that regard.

It's a shame the average member of this board watches about 10 minutes of the NBA per season, because their opinions are likely skewed by Harden's atrocious Finals.

 

[msgordon]

this thread is pretty awful

 

[msgordon]

harden>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>martin

 

[WhereistheDove?]

...which is why I pointed out that he's a rental being brought in to be the third option. I think he's plenty capable of that if healthy.

I completely agree, if they can get him to buy into his role as a purely complementary player, I think he is a decent stop gap, but you said there is minimal falloff from Harden and that is not true in any facet of the game.

 

[Clockshop]

Presti: "We’ve spent a lot of time talking with Kevin Ollie, who were still very close with up at UConn and Kevin had wonderful things to say about this young man, coached him, stayed in contact with him and Kevin understands our environment, Kevin understands what we’re trying to establish and he thinks Jeremy can excel."

http://www.hoopsworld.com/sam-presti-talks-about-the-harden-trade/

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

Obviously you don't pay a lot of attention to the NBA, the entire reason he wasn't offered more by the Thunder was that the owner couldn't afford to pay the luxury tax. It was about saving money from coming out of the owner's own pocket.

The Thunder have done a great job selling themselves as a small market "we do more with less" organization but that's not the reality. They're raking in money hand over fist. They lowballed Harden, could have afforded to pay him much more, and when he said no they dealt him. That's it. He's no more of a for rejecting a well below market deal than Presti is for offering it to him. Presti's no dummy and neither is Harden. And if he takes it and gets dealt in a year, who's the then?

 

[RayRay19]

Presti: "We’ve spent a lot of time talking with Kevin Ollie, who were still very close with up at UConn and Kevin had wonderful things to say about this young man, coached him, stayed in contact with him and Kevin understands our environment, Kevin understands what we’re trying to establish and he thinks Jeremy can excel."

http://www.hoopsworld.com/sam-presti-talks-about-the-harden-trade/

I was actually thinking about that...because I remember how much The Thunder valued KO...great to see KO still has great pull in the NBA...thats awesome!

 

[caw]

I think the argument of Harden playing against subs is bogus, why? When Harden is on the floor the Thunder average about 112 points per 100 possessions, when Harden is on the bench they score just about 99 points per 100 possessions. The difference is the fourth highest in the NBA among players. Not to mention Harden kept the Thunder offense rolling when Westbrook and Durant, as OKC averaged 109 points per 100 possession with Harden and no Durant and Westbrook on the floor which is better than most NBA teams averages in that category. Also why in the world is Ibaka, Fisher, and Sefolosha being included as offensive compliments all three are extremely limited on the offensive end and can not create for themselves (Ibaka is improving though). Outside of Westbrook, Durant, and Harden OKC has essentially nobody that can create for themselves or others. As for Martin, his supporting cast is not as bad as you are making it out to be Houston went 14-12 without Martin last year and Lowry, Dragic, and Scola are all solid offensive players who were all more valuable last season than Martin. Defensively, i already mentioned Harden wasn't a great defender but Martin is so bad on defense that it will be a major step down. If anything this trade will let everybody know how important Harden was to OKC and if he is truly capable of being a number one option, we don't have to wait very long to see either.

Harden is a decent player, starter quality. The Thunder should have an advantage when he is on the floor against subs, in what way does the PPP show this to be flawed. If anything the 112 per 100 possessions shows Harden is better than the subs he is playing against by a considerable amount. This doesn't show he is a top 3-5 SG in the league.

I mentioned the top 5 scorers because it shows the lack of talent behind Martin. If you would prefer to look at the top two on each team, the spread looks worse. Lowry, Dragic, and Scola are decent but not a one demands a double team or more defensive attention than Martin.

As for defense, Harden will look much worse without guys like Ibaka and Perkins behind him. Martin's backline was far inferior.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

Harden is a decent player, starter quality. The Thunder should have an advantage when he is on the floor against subs, in what way does the PPP show this to be flawed. If anything the 112 per 100 possessions shows Harden is better than the subs he is playing against by a considerable amount. This doesn't show he is a top 3-5 SG in the league.

I mentioned the top 5 scorers because it shows the lack of talent behind Martin. If you would prefer to look at the top two on each team, the spread looks worse. Lowry, Dragic, and Scola are decent but not a one demands a double team or more defensive attention than Martin.

As for defense, Harden will look much worse without guys like Ibaka and Perkins behind him. Martin's backline was far inferior.

I just don't understand how you can make the distinction that Harden was playing against the other team's bench players and therefore his numbers were ballooned. The guy was a bench player in only the most technical sense. I haven't looked but I'd imagine he played the third most minutes per game on that team.

 

[johnhuskies95]

The Thunder have done a great job selling themselves as a small market "we do more with less" organization but that's not the reality. They're raking in money hand over fist. They lowballed Harden, could have afforded to pay him much more, and when he said no they dealt him. That's it. He's no more of a for rejecting a well below market deal than Presti is for offering it to him. Presti's no dummy and neither is Harden. And if he takes it and gets dealt in a year, who's the then?

Signing Harden to the deal he wanted would've put the Thunder about 25 million dollars over the luxury tax, and they have to pay 1.50 for every dollar over the tax. They also would've been more than 35 million dollars over the salary cap.

It's extremely hard to justify paying one guy that much when those are the consequences. Especially when they already have two other guys who are under big contracts for a long time.