Kelsey Mitchell is not an All American...

[Papa33]

View attachment 17822

Despite being know for friendly fluff pieces, I'm taking a stand against calling players who do little else than score tons of points, All Americans. Ohio State's Kelsey Mitchell is one of those talented players who dominates the headlines by scoring, and scoring and scoring. Yes, she single handedly kept Ohio State close against UConn by pouring in 19 first half points. Three of those points came on a near half court bomb as time ran out in the half. She has talent, no doubt. But, how about the 3rd and 4th periods?

Mitchell ended up scoring 4 points the rest of the game, bringing her total to 23. She took 24 shots and made 9. That is 37.5%. Here is a list of UConn players that shot better than that last night.

1. Gabby went 3-5 or 60%
2. Napheesa went 9-19 or 47.4%
3. Katie Lou went 8-21 or 38.1%
4. Crystal went 3-5 or 60%
5. Kia went 4-11 or 36.4% which was almost equal to Michell.

Consider the issue about the value of a player's time on the court, even just the narrow matter of points put on the scoreboard, from the point of view of synergy:

Mitchell played 38 minutes, some of them with dazzling showmanship. She puts up 24 shots for 23 points. Add to that, 1 assist for another 2 or 3 points: total of 25 or 26 points for her production.

From the UConn side, Gabby Williams, while playing 34 minutes, launches 5 shots resulting in a modest 7 points for her team. Ah, but she also adds 7 assists, playing a crucial role in 14 to 21 points. Ignoring her other contributions (steals, rebounds) how much does she contribute to her team's production per possession when the ball is in her hands?

Individual effort is often just that-- solitary and isolated from a team's synergy, which UConn creates and cultivates in quantity. Our women set screens, roll, cut, post-up, dribble less, look for each other more, expect to receive passes when open. That's synergy, the power of many. Someone on the Boneyard said that every team can re-create what our team does on offense. Perhaps, but it ain't easy-- takes basketball intelligence and court vision, energy, timing, coordination of many parts-- but it's exactly what the coaching staff insists on.

Of course, little from that list seems to weigh heavily in All-American voting. It's much easier to do the simple math of computing points per game. But for the hoops Uconnoisseur, it's beautiful to watch.

 

[j66kicker]

Geno did make positive comments about Kelsey at halftime so he respects her abilities. From a "system" perspective, you can't convince me anyone has a system, not even UConn, they might have a process, that allows for utilizing strengths better, which is what Geno does do better than anyone.

Yeah, he said, "There's no shot she won't take." Heh heh

 

[UcMiami]

Let me repeat, Kelsey Mitchell is a very, very talented player. She is a tremendous scorer who has already scored 2,057 points, just 13 games into her Junior season. My opinion is that the rest of her game is below All American level and the UConn game, both this season and last, illustrates that. I'm giving an opinion, not denigrating Kelsey Mitchell. Consider:

1. Mitchell has taken 1,530 shots in her 82 game career. MoJeff took 1,106 in four years. At her current pace, Mitchell will take more shots in three years than Stewie took in four. I get it, her job is to score and she shoots 43.5% from the field for her career.
2. For her career, Mitchell has 305 assists and 288 turnovers. That is a pedestrian 1.05 assist to turnover ratio. She is almost as likely to turn the ball over as get it to a shooter who then makes the shot. Yes, some brilliant passes do not turn into assists because the shooter misses.
3. Mitchell is currently 8th on her team in rebounding. She has 1 blocked shot in 13 games. So, rebounding and shot blocking are not her specialty. That makes sense as she is reported to be 5'8".
4. Mitchell has led her team in personal fouls every season. Her 238 fouls average out to 2.9 fouls per game. Sometimes, her tendency to foul keeps her on the bench in foul trouble.
5. Kelsey has 22 steals in 13 games this season. That leads her team. Napheesa has 21 in 10 games for UConn and Gabby has 27.
6. Her 39 turnovers this season would rank #1 on UConn. In fairness, Gabby has 30 in 10 games, which is the same 3 per game as Mitchell.

Mitchell is a great shooter and scores tons of points. In my opinion, her totals in assists, turnovers, steals, rebounds and fouls keeps her off my All American team. My opinion and 50 cents will get you a hot coffee at McDonald's.

I posted in another thread, but will repeat here - the number of shots is not really a valid point - it is the efficiency of scoring. Uconn is generally a very efficient scoring team, and MoJet was one of the most efficient scorers from the back court that uconn or any other team has seen - last year she scored 1.40 points per shot, and combine that with an A/TO ratio of 2.83 she blows away DT, Sue, and any other guard in Uconn history.
Mitchell is no slouch from the wing/guard position - she scored 1.42 points per shot last year which is very good - her A/TO was 1.07, not that great but not below the mendoza line. And her points per shot compares to a team that scores 1.29 points per shot, so OSU is better off when she shoots than when most of the rest of the team shoots (Subtract Kelsey out of the team number and it drops to 1.25)

 

[CajunHusky]

The great aspect of the Boneyard is the depth of knowledge of those who post, so I am optimistic to hear others recollections on this: my memory of the Kelsey Mitchell recruiting was her father was hired as an assistant coach for McGruff and was the rather large gentlemen sitting next to McGruff on the bench.

Mark Mitchell joined OSU the year before Kelsey was a freshman.

His Bio states: Mitchell, who has more than 20 years of coaching experience at the top high school and AAU levels, came to Ohio State after spending the previous 11 years as the boys varsity head coach at Taft High School in Cincinnati, where he amassed a record of 221-50 (.815). Mitchell resurrected the Senator program instantly in his first year, going 22-3 and winning the city championship after inheriting a program coming off 10 consecutive losing seasons. During his tenure at Taft, the Senators won eight Cincinnati Metro Athletic Conference titles, nine sectional and four district titles and a Division III state championship in 2011. For his efforts, he was voted CMAC coach of the year eight times and the Cincinnati Enquirer coach of the year five times.

Prior to his appointment at Taft, Mitchell served as an assistant coach at Winton Woods High School from 2001-03 where he helped the Warriors to a Division I state runner-up finish in 2002. He also was an assistant coach on the All-Ohio Girls basketball team from 2011-13.

Some people may remember Pete Maravich's father, Press Maravich was hired as LSU head coach about the time Pete was looking for a college.
[Wikipedia] Maravich was head coach of the Tigers of Clemson University from 1956 to 1962. He then went to North Carolina State University to be an assistant coach under Everett Case. Maravich took over the head coaching duties when health problems, primarily cancer, forced Case to retire early in the 1964–1965 season. Maravich led the Wolfpack to the Atlantic Coast Conference title that season. Maravich left for Louisiana State University in April 1966 where he coached his son, Pete Maravich. Upon offering the LSU scholarship to "Pistol", "Press" told his boy that "If you don't sign this ... don't ever come into my house again."{Pistol: The Life of Pete Maravich}. Pete, originally wanted to go to the West Virginia University but finally agreed to go to LSU if his dad bought him a car. (Pistol: The Life of Pete Maravich.) In spite of coaching his prolific son for half of his coaching career at LSU, Maravich had an overall losing record at the school. Maravich was replaced at LSU by Dale Brown in 1972.

 

[trb123]

View attachment 17822

Despite being know for friendly fluff pieces, I'm taking a stand against calling players who do little else than score tons of points, All Americans. Ohio State's Kelsey Mitchell is one of those talented players who dominates the headlines by scoring, and scoring and scoring. Yes, she single handedly kept Ohio State close against UConn by pouring in 19 first half points. Three of those points came on a near half court bomb as time ran out in the half. She has talent, no doubt. But, how about the 3rd and 4th periods?

Mitchell ended up scoring 4 points the rest of the game, bringing her total to 23. She took 24 shots and made 9. That is 37.5%. Here is a list of UConn players that shot better than that last night.

1. Gabby went 3-5 or 60%
2. Napheesa went 9-19 or 47.4%
3. Katie Lou went 8-21 or 38.1%
4. Crystal went 3-5 or 60%
5. Kia went 4-11 or 36.4% which was almost equal to Michell.

So basically, the WHOLE starting Huskies' line up shot the ball the same or better than Mitchell, in OSU's biggest game of the year.

What else did Kelsey do to beat UConn? Well, she had 1 assist. That's right, 1 and only 1 assist. She also had 2 rebounds and 3 steals vs 3 turnovers and 3 fouls. I'm sorry, not All American statistics.

What to see a real All American..?? Check out the picture above... Collier had 27 points (on fewer shots), 11 rebounds, 2 assists, 8-9 or 88% from the free throw line, 1 block, 1 steal and only 1 turnover.

Go Pheesa..!!

David's arguments do not convince me that Kelsey Mitchell is not an All American. I will not argue against her not being an All Neapolitan.

 

[BigBird]

And yet McGuff kept her in the game for 38 minutes, which means she's doing what her coach wants of her.

Not exactly. What it means is that he didn't think he had a better option. Big difference.

 

[HopJim]

David's arguments do not convince me that Kelsey Mitchell is not an All American. I will not argue against her not being an All Neapolitan.

Not sure we are giving the respect we would ask for in return. Few on this board, myself included, have seen enough of Mitchell to make an intelligent call on her perspective All Star status. Basing judgements on one game, and in some cases, one half, may not be an informed call. She and Lou carried the scoring for their teams in the first half. Both appeared to run low on energy the second half. I rate Lou's overall performance highly. Make your own call on Mitchell.

 

[Kibitzer]

One tribute to Kelsey was that Geno (HoF coach w/#1 ranked team) respected her offensive skills (first half) so much that he redeployed his team defense (second half) to focus almost solely on slowing her down.

In the first half, Kia drew the assignment of guarding Kelsey one-on-one. It didn't work as Mitchell dropped 19 points.

Second half, Dangerfield harassed Mitchell up close ("Don't let her shoot treys!") and she had four teammates ready to provide rapid "help defense" should Kelsey have a notion to dribble-drive to the hoop. Team effort. It worked. Four points.

My point? She commanded Geno's attention and the focus of the UConn "D." So she must be really good. Really.

 

[PacoSwede]

Everyone can decide for themselves whether Kelsey or any player deserves to be AA.

What the OP complained about is the decision of (at least some) people to favor scorers, and DISCOUNT players who excel in other aspects of the game. I'd bet the vast majority of former AA were known for their scoring. Even though many also had other AA talents -- often cited as reasons for their AA status -- if they didn't also put up the points, they wouldn't even be considered for the honor.

I also dislike the weight of reputation. Once an AA, always an AA, it seems -- even when their current performance may be lacking. Meanwhile, players that post outstanding years have little chance of being AA if they don't get a reputation (sometimes based largely on hype).

 

[jsloanjr]

Mitchell, DD are very selfish players IMHO.. They don't make their teammates better....Plus, they go silent when their team needs them most.. Brianna Turner is in the same boat.......

 

[HuskyNan]

Not exactly. What it means is that he didn't think he had a better option. Big difference.

He didn't tell her to play any differently. In fact this is what McGuff said in the post game presser:

On his star player Kelsey Mitchell:

“She was terrific tonight, really attacking with great balance and creating shots for herself. She stayed within the offense and got other people involved. I thought she was outstanding tonight.”

UCONNHUSKIES.COM :: UConn/Ohio State Quotes :: University of Connecticut Huskies Official Athletic Site :: Women's Basketball

 

[BigBird]

He didn't tell her to play any differently. In fact this is what McGuff said in the post game presser:

On his star player Kelsey Mitchell:

“She was terrific tonight, really attacking with great balance and creating shots for herself. She stayed within the offense and got other people involved. I thought she was outstanding tonight.”

UCONNHUSKIES.COM :: UConn/Ohio State Quotes :: University of Connecticut Huskies Official Athletic Site :: Women's Basketball

All I can say is that McGuff's version differs greatly from what many of us thought we witnessed on the court. But that's OK. Besides, I (sort of) picked OSU to get the W, so what do I know?

 

[BigBird]

Everyone can decide for themselves whether Kelsey or any player deserves to be AA.

What the OP complained about is the decision of (at least some) people to favor scorers, and DISCOUNT players who excel in other aspects of the game. I'd bet the vast majority of former AA were known for their scoring. Even though many also had other AA talents -- often cited as reasons for their AA status -- if they didn't also put up the points, they wouldn't even be considered for the honor.

I also dislike the weight of reputation. Once an AA, always an AA, it seems -- even when their current performance may be lacking. Meanwhile, players that post outstanding years have little chance of being AA if they don't get a reputation (sometimes based largely on hype).

Spot on. Much of what you detail is a function of mass media "partnerships" with sport sanctioning bodies. There is a strong gravitational pull for media (especially TV) to market or advance those teams and players that sell best with the mass audience.

 

[UcMiami]

Everyone can decide for themselves whether Kelsey or any player deserves to be AA.

What the OP complained about is the decision of (at least some) people to favor scorers, and DISCOUNT players who excel in other aspects of the game. I'd bet the vast majority of former AA were known for their scoring. Even though many also had other AA talents -- often cited as reasons for their AA status -- if they didn't also put up the points, they wouldn't even be considered for the honor.

I also dislike the weight of reputation. Once an AA, always an AA, it seems -- even when their current performance may be lacking. Meanwhile, players that post outstanding years have little chance of being AA if they don't get a reputation (sometimes based largely on hype).

Listen - we have a very Uconn centric point of view, but even given that uconn centric point of view, the list of AAs from Uconn teams that came miles from being in the top 25 of WCBB scoring ranks is long and varied - Last year Moriah Jefferson and Morgan Tuck were neither anywhere on anyone's list of top scores, KML, Bria, Stef, etc. etc. so I don't think we have a lot to complain about.

Ohio State, Baylor, Washington State, and many other schools run a very different offensive system that rides a single player or a occasionally two players to score a large portion of their points - Uconn has done that some years - Stewart and Maya being the prime examples recently, but their best teams have more balanced scoring.

Just because Kelsey is depended on to score 30% of her teams points doesn't mean that she is a bad player or a selfish one. Same with Kelsey Plum, or Odyssey Sims or _____ - they are doing what their coach and their team needs them to do and they are doing it very well.

 

[HoopsFan21]

They just mentioned on the half time of our Nebraska game that Kelsey is the fastest player to 2,000 points in the history of men's or women's college basketball.

 

[DaddyChoc]

Jessica Shepard

 

[hjoerring]

In judging All-America worthiness, performance against the best teams should count more than gaudy numbers posted against the cupcakes on the schedule. In this vein, neither Davis, Turner nor Mitchell showed me AA chops. The kid from Florida State whose name I can't recall definitely did, however.

While Mitchell is not my favorite player, she seems to have one-speed and seemingly must have the ball to be relevant; I cannot deny her skills-set. I was extremely disappointed in the recent game, as I expected a much higher calibre of play from them. They have the talent (although Calhoun is not dissimilar to Mitchell), but the attitude is ' this is my house and you must not rearrange anything, otherwise I may sulk.'
Personally, I think the AA thing has outlived itself. There are far too many good players today. Which two players on Conn would we nominate for AA. Assuming we can only have two. Isn't Gabby and Nurse really critical for our winnings! (Forgot we had 3 last year)

 

[meyers7]

So the aforementioned Mitchell, Turner, Allen and Davis did not look good against UConn and were at best the 4th best player on the floor.

Wait, what???? The Mitchell that torched UCONN for 19 points in the first half? The Mitchell that Geno had to make major defensive adjustments for in the 2nd half (which luckily worked)? That Mitchell didn't look good against UCONN. Myself and Geno would disagree with you. There are not a lot of players that Geno has to completely revamp his defensive scheme for.

 

[CajunHusky]

They just mentioned on the half time of our Nebraska game that Kelsey is the fastest player to 2,000 points in the history of men's or women's college basketball.

I find that really hard to believe ..... there must be some qualifier in there.
I understand Plum did it in 88 and Mitchell in 84.....

Pete Maravich? Calvin Murphy? any idea?

Pistol had 2286 points after his second year varsity (freshmen couldn't play varsity back then) 52 games......
Murphy played just 77 games in his varsity career and had 2548 points

I am sure there are plenty more examples. Don't get me wrong they are both great players but they don't need to make things up to "prove" it.

 

[UcMiami]

While Mitchell is not my favorite player, she seems to have one-speed and seemingly must have the ball to be relevant; I cannot deny her skills-set. I was extremely disappointed in the recent game, as I expected a much higher calibre of play from them. They have the talent (although Calhoun is not dissimilar to Mitchell), but the attitude is ' this is my house and you must not rearrange anything, otherwise I may sulk.'
Personally, I think the AA thing has outlived itself. There are far too many good players today. Which two players on Conn would we nominate for AA. Assuming we can only have two. Isn't Gabby and Nurse really critical for our winnings! (Forgot we had 3 last year)

Just think how many points Mitchell could score if she were playing with a Moriah Jefferson type point guard and didn't have to create all her own shots but would be consistently fed the ball on her cuts and for uncontested jumpers! Ohio State hasn't had that kind of PG or that kind of system since she arrived, so she is asked to go out and collect the ball and create on her own, seldom even getting decent screening action to help her work free. Put her on the Baylor team and at least Kim would put plays in to help create space for her like she did for Sims. Or as ND did for Loyd.

 

[CocoHusky]

Just think how many points Mitchell could score if she were playing with a Moriah Jefferson type point guard and didn't have to create all her own shots but would be consistently fed the ball on her cuts and for uncontested jumpers! Ohio State hasn't had that kind of PG or that kind of system since she arrived, so she is asked to go out and collect the ball and create on her own, seldom even getting decent screening action to help her work free. Put her on the Baylor team and at least Kim would put plays in to help create space for her like she did for Sims. Or as ND did for Loyd.

A Moriah Jefferson Type PG is an extremely high standard. What Kelsey Mitchell had alongside her for two years is Ameryst Alston whose honors included:

• Three-time First team All-Big Ten

• Honorable Mention AP All-American (2016)

• All-Big Ten Freshman Team

Alston was more than an adequate player to do what you are suggesting but was largely unutilized. Doss, Calhoun, Mavunga, McCoy , Hart are destined to follow a similar path of being spectators to Mitchell's dribbling exhibition. If you go back and watch the tOSU game Muvunga touched the ball 2 times when you exclude her offensive & and defensive touches.

 

[CocoHusky]

Wait, what???? The Mitchell that torched UCONN for 19 points in the first half? The Mitchell that Geno had to make major defensive adjustments for in the 2nd half (which luckily worked)? That Mitchell didn't look good against UCONN. Myself and Geno would disagree with you. There are not a lot of players that Geno has to completely revamp his defensive scheme for.

Hardly a “complete revamp” and there was nothing lucky about it. Geno made an adjustment to how Mitchell was being guarded in the second half. Specifically he doubled Mitchell on the wings and face guarded her once she gave the ball up. Geno does hate to double anybody but he’s made similar adjustments at the half, as he did last year against Mabrey of ND and Williams of USF.

 

[meyers7]

Hardly a “complete revamp” and there was nothing lucky about it. Geno made an adjustment to how Mitchell was being guarded in the second half. Specifically he doubled Mitchell on the wings and face guarded her once she gave the ball up. Geno does hate to double anybody but he’s made similar adjustments at the half, as he did last year against Mabrey of ND and Williams of USF.

That's a pretty good revamp. Nothing wrong with a little luck.

 

[easttexastrash]

View attachment 17822

Despite being know for friendly fluff pieces, I'm taking a stand against calling players who do little else than score tons of points, All Americans. Ohio State's Kelsey Mitchell is one of those talented players who dominates the headlines by scoring, and scoring and scoring. Yes, she single handedly kept Ohio State close against UConn by pouring in 19 first half points. Three of those points came on a near half court bomb as time ran out in the half. She has talent, no doubt. But, how about the 3rd and 4th periods?

Mitchell ended up scoring 4 points the rest of the game, bringing her total to 23. She took 24 shots and made 9. That is 37.5%. Here is a list of UConn players that shot better than that last night.

1. Gabby went 3-5 or 60%
2. Napheesa went 9-19 or 47.4%
3. Katie Lou went 8-21 or 38.1%
4. Crystal went 3-5 or 60%
5. Kia went 4-11 or 36.4% which was almost equal to Michell.

So basically, the WHOLE starting Huskies' line up shot the ball the same or better than Mitchell, in OSU's biggest game of the year.

What else did Kelsey do to beat UConn? Well, she had 1 assist. That's right, 1 and only 1 assist. She also had 2 rebounds and 3 steals vs 3 turnovers and 3 fouls. I'm sorry, not All American statistics.

What to see a real All American..?? Check out the picture above... Collier had 27 points (on fewer shots), 11 rebounds, 2 assists, 8-9 or 88% from the free throw line, 1 block, 1 steal and only 1 turnover.

Go Pheesa..!!

I agree that Mitchell is not an AA, however, it is hard to judge a player based on stats against UCONN. Mitchell was playing against UCONN's defense and Collier was playing against OSU's. But I would vote Collier as a first team AA. She is really smooth, smart and can flat out shoot the ball.

 

[easttexastrash]

If Mitchell is an AA based on the first 20 minutes, then she is not even all conference based on the last 20 minutes. She was shut down by Crystal Dangerfield, who face guarded her all over the court. All Americans don't get shut down by freshman, even good ones.

The second half shut-down was not because of Dangerfield, it was Geno's adjustments to prevent Mitchell from getting on the wing by bringing a double team. Dangerfield certainly played a part in the defense but it is not as if she shut her down all by herself. Had Geno continued to play Mitchell straight up she would have continued to score.

 

[Geew1992]

When I say this, I an not talking about one specific player. I believe an AA should be based mostly on what they do against the best teams. I don't care if it's Uconn Aouth Carolina or ND. If these players aren't playing their best against the best, why so they deserve to be an AA??

 

[UcMiami]

When I say this, I an not talking about one specific player. I believe an AA should be based mostly on what they do against the best teams. I don't care if it's Uconn Aouth Carolina or ND. If these players aren't playing their best against the best, why so they deserve to be an AA??

Because Uconn is coached like a pro team with solid scouting and a plan to take away your best player. Very few other teams play that kind of defense and all most posters on this board see is what happens when the player plays against uconn. I don't have a problem with you rating them against other top teams, but Uconn is different. And that theory also would make it impossible for a player like EDD playing on a bad Delaware team to ever be considered - had they ever played top ten teams they would have been slaughtered and EDD would have been left on an island playing against two or three AA quality defenders with no support.

 

[Carnac]

The second half shut-down was not because of Dangerfield, it was Geno's adjustments to prevent Mitchell from getting on the wing by bringing a double team. Dangerfield certainly played a part in the defense but it is not as if she shut her down all by herself. Had Geno continued to play Mitchell straight up she would have continued to score.

The same way he shut down Mitchell, is the same way he can shut down a Maryland player in the 2nd half if they are hot.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

I was almost amazed to see Kevin McGuff kiss his Holy Queen's arse - she was on his left - in the presser. Yes, Kevin, she scored 4 points in the second half, but she sure distributed the ball well, and that worked out just super. He, frankly, always has the excuse of his team being in transition. Geno likes him, why shouldn't he; he knows how to whoop his behind.