Just when you thought you knew...

[Jaydumo20]

It's impossible to compare regular season wins because the conferences were not created equal. As you said the tourney is all that matters, it's the great equalizer. The modern college bball era began in 1975 when the tourney expanded to 32 teams, it was a joke before then. In the modern era Gtown is a top 15 program, by definition that's not ancient history. Below, the values for each round are based on the Fibonacci sequence where each number is the sum of the previous two. A school needs to have made it to the finals to qualify.

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Rank 1975+	Team	Bids	x1	Sweet 16	x2	Elite 8	x3	Final 4	x5	Finals	x8	Champ	x13	Total
1	Duke	42	42	30	60	21	63	15	77	10	80	5	65	387
2	UNC	46	46	31	62	22	66	15	75	9	72	5	65	386
3	Kentucky	42	42	30	60	22	56	11	55	7	56	4	52	321
4	Kansas	43	43	24	48	16	48	10	50	6	48	3	39	276
5	UConn	27	27	17	34	12	36	7	35	6	48	6	78	258
6	Louisville	36	36	21	42	12	36	8	40	3	24	3	39	217
7	UCLA	38	38	23	46	11	33	8	40	4	32	2	26	215
8	MSU	36	36	20	40	13	39	9	45	3	24	2	26	210
9	Indiana	39	39	18	36	8	24	5	25	4	32	3	39	195
10	Florida	25	25	12	24	10	30	6	30	4	32	3	39	180
11	Michigan	27	27	15	30	10	30	6	30	6	48	1	13	178
12	Villanova	31	31	13	26	10	30	5	25	3	24	3	39	175
13	Syracuse	37	37	21	42	8	24	6	30	3	24	1	13	170
14	Arizona	38	38	21	42	11	33	4	20	2	16	1	13	162
15	Georgetown	30	30	11	22	8	24	4	20	3	24	1	13	133
15	Arkansas	32	32	14	28	8	24	4	20	2	16	1	13	133
17	Virginia	26	26	10	20	7	21	4	20	1	8	1	13	108
18	Houston	16	16	9	18	6	18	5	25	3	24	0	0	101
19	Gonzaga	27	27	14	28	6	18	2	10	2	16	0	0	99
20	Maryland	30	30	14	28	3	9	2	10	1	8	1	13	98
21	Marquette	28	28	9	18	4	12	2	10	2	16	1	13	97
22	UNLV	20	20	10	20	5	15	4	20	1	8	1	13	96
23	NC

That's a good list. Its weird to me how Indiana somehow looks out of place in that top ten. That blue blood is thinning by the minute. Gtowns inclusion definitely adds to your and @superjohn argument.


It's just that they've been so bad for so long. Whether or not we agree on the term historic (which is as wide as the sargasso sea) i certainly can't tell the story of my 45 year cbb fanaticism without a chapter on GTown, unlv and Indiana.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

That's a good list. Its weird to me how Indiana somehow looks out of place in that top ten. That blue blood is thinning by the minute. Gtowns inclusion definitely adds to your and @superjohn argument.


It's just that they've been so bad for so long. Whether or not we agree on the term historic (which is as wide as the sargasso sea) i certainly can't tell the story of my 45 year cbb fanaticism without a chapter on GTown, unlv and Indiana.

For the record, it isn't historic that I am in disagreement with, it's viewing them as an historic program.

The four year run with Ewing absolutely qualifies as historic teams. A program needs more than a run with one immensely impactful player.

About a decade and a half ago Butler did something that very few schools have done, play in consecutive national championship games. That accomplishment can be viewed as historic but there is no way they can be considered an historic program.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Kansas is #1 in all-time wins, UConn is #22. Kansas has won 3 NCAA tournaments in the past 72 tournaments, UConn won 6 in the past 26 tournaments. Temple is 6th in all-time wins, Cuse is 7th, Notre Dame is 8th, St. John's is 9th. Those 4 programs have won 1 NCAA tournament between them.

Winning NCAA tournaments is not the only thing that matters. Getting into the tournament regularly is more important. Would you say that Houston is not currently a very strong program? With history as well? They have never won. Alabama has never won. Many of the top programs in this era haven't won a title.

Georgetown had a miracle victory in the BET (from 8th seed) to get an invite in 2020-21. They were 13-13. The last time they legitimately earned a bid with a good team was 2014-15. They've had three coaches since then.

For anyone bringing up Indiana, their results since 2014 are much better, including a Sweet 16 and multiple bids. They are down, for sure. But didn't fall completely off the radar like Georgetown. I mentioned Notre Dame because they were regulars in the tournament every decade back to the 60s until this decade. One appearance as a first four team in 2022. GT was runner up to us with two other final fours and was a very strong program until completely falling off the map with only one bid in the last 15 years.

Georgetown is more like GT than they are some historic program that has remained relevant.

 

[mussels]

Georgetowwn is more than just Patrick Ewing (or Mourning, Motumbo, Iverson) They’ve put more guys in the NBA than UConn (49 to 47). They rank #20 in weeks spent in th AP poll with 397. (UConn is #19 with 414). There is history here.

 

[bendm]

Winning NCAA tournaments is not the only thing that matters. Getting into the tournament regularly is more important. Would you say that Houston is not currently a very strong program? With history as well? They have never won. Alabama has never won. Many of the top programs in this era haven't won a title.

Georgetown had a miracle victory in the BET (from 8th seed) to get an invite in 2020-21. They were 13-13. The last time they legitimately earned a bid with a good team was 2014-15. They've had three coaches since then.

For anyone bringing up Indiana, their results since 2014 are much better, including a Sweet 16 and multiple bids. They are down, for sure. But didn't fall completely off the radar like Georgetown. I mentioned Notre Dame because they were regulars in the tournament every decade back to the 60s until this decade. One appearance as a first four team in 2022. GT was runner up to us with two other final fours and was a very strong program until completely falling off the map with only one bid in the last 15 years.

Georgetown is more like GT than they are some historic program that has remained relevant.

Did you get rejected from the Gtown law center or something and have a grudge now? Gtown has made the tourney more than UConn since 1975 when it expanded to 32. Houston has only made it 16x. Bama has never even made the finals.

 

[superjohn]

Winning NCAA tournaments is not the only thing that matters. Getting into the tournament regularly is more important.

This never gets old, it's the biggest tell ever that you're a Kansas fan. It's always good for a laugh.

 

[bendm]

This never gets old, it's the biggest tell ever that you're a Kansas fan. It's always good for a laugh.

Out of one side of his mouth he argues for the significance of the last 15 years of tourney results and out of the other side he argues for the significance of regular season wins since they were playing with peach baskets

 

[Lafayette]

When was the last time they issued any new material?

What are the odds that more than maybe three or four of the kids who played in the McDonald's AA game can name any of their songs or any members of the group.

Probably any that like Adidas, or just learned some history of rap. Y'all don't remember Run's House?

 

[Jaydumo20]

For the record, it isn't historic that I am in disagreement with, it's viewing them as an historic program.

The four year run with Ewing absolutely qualifies as historic teams. A program needs more than a run with one immensely impactful player.

About a decade and a half ago Butler did something that very few schools have done, play in consecutive national championship games. That accomplishment can be viewed as historic but there is no way they can be considered an historic program.

I agree with that distinction. And it's not like Georgetown didn't impact me. When I was an 11 year old, obsessed with college basketball, reading The National sports daily, I couldn't escape Gtown. They were front and center during my formative years. But I still can't put the program in the upper tiers, historically.
You, me and @HuskyHawk are definitely on the same side of the aisle on this one, but i think I may have a little more room in my heart for them than you both.

 

[Lafayette]

Maybe it's recency bias for us and we forget how much context matters.

Georgetown is a historic college and athletic program - that is a different context than are they a blue blood basketball school or are they competitive now.

St. John's had a disappointing season: They won the BE, beat a lot of good teams, went to the dance and lost in round 2 as a 2 seed. History will not remember the highs of their season but their exit. Do we remember how great 2018 Virginia was or that they lost to a 16 seed?

UConn had a down year - we are off 2 Natty's in a row, and huge talent exit - playing the "Mahaney miscue" or "Frosh didn't work out" cards are only in the deck because we did not exceed realistic expectations once the season got underway - we should have been a 6, made it to the Elite 8, etc. We did not, which is understandable, but history is only going to remember a down year after 2 amazing ones not the various reasons because who is discussing this about Duke or Florida's year after theirs anymore?

 

[Jaydumo20]

Winning NCAA tournaments is not the only thing that matters. Getting into the tournament regularly is more important. Would you say that Houston is not currently a very strong program? With history as well? They have never won. Alabama has never won. Many of the top programs in this era haven't won a title.

Georgetown had a miracle victory in the BET (from 8th seed) to get an invite in 2020-21. They were 13-13. The last time they legitimately earned a bid with a good team was 2014-15. They've had three coaches since then.

For anyone bringing up Indiana, their results since 2014 are much better, including a Sweet 16 and multiple bids. They are down, for sure. But didn't fall completely off the radar like Georgetown. I mentioned Notre Dame because they were regulars in the tournament every decade back to the 60s until this decade. One appearance as a first four team in 2022. GT was runner up to us with two other final fours and was a very strong program until completely falling off the map with only one bid in the last 15 years.

Georgetown is more like GT than they are some historic program that has remained relevant.

I think the GTech comparison is the most appropriate. If we lived in the greater Atlanta area, or grew up rooting for the ACC, we'd probably argue in favor of GaTech as an historic program.

Region matters too: I asked my father in law, from Indiana to name the best college bball coaches ever and he said Bobby knight, gene Keady and that guy from Duke.

 

[Lafayette]

It's impossible to compare regular season wins because the conferences were not created equal. As you said the tourney is all that matters, it's the great equalizer. The modern college bball era began in 1975 when the tourney expanded to 32 teams, it was a joke before then. In the modern era Gtown is a top 15 program, by definition that's not ancient history. Below, the values for each round are based on the Fibonacci sequence where each number is the sum of the previous two. A school needs to have made it to the finals to qualify.

Rank 1975+	Team	Bids	x1	Sweet 16	x2	Elite 8	x3	Final 4	x5	Finals	x8	Champ	x13	Total
1	Duke	42	42	30	60	21	63	15	77	10	80	5	65	387
2	UNC	46	46	31	62	22	66	15	75	9	72	5	65	386
3	Kentucky	42	42	30	60	22	56	11	55	7	56	4	52	321
4	Kansas	43	43	24	48	16	48	10	50	6	48	3	39	276
5	UConn	27	27	17	34	12	36	7	35	6	48	6	78	258
6	Louisville	36	36	21	42	12	36	8	40	3	24	3	39	217
7	UCLA	38	38	23	46	11	33	8	40	4	32	2	26	215
8	MSU	36	36	20	40	13	39	9	45	3	24	2	26	210
9	Indiana	39	39	18	36	8	24	5	25	4	32	3	39	195
10	Florida	25	25	12	24	10	30	6	30	4	32	3	39	180
11	Michigan	27	27	15	30	10	30	6	30	6	48	1	13	178
12	Villanova	31	31	13	26	10	30	5	25	3	24	3	39	175
13	Syracuse	37	37	21	42	8	24	6	30	3	24	1	13	170
14	Arizona	38	38	21	42	11	33	4	20	2	16	1	13	162
15	Georgetown	30	30	11	22	8	24	4	20	3	24	1	13	133
15	Arkansas	32	32	14	28	8	24	4	20	2	16	1	13	133
17	Virginia	26	26	10	20	7	21	4	20	1	8	1	13	108
18	Houston	16	16	9	18	6	18	5	25	3	24	0	0	101
19	Gonzaga	27	27	14	28	6	18	2	10	2	16	0	0	99
20	Maryland	30	30	14	28	3	9	2	10	1	8	1	13	98
21	Marquette	28	28	9	18	4	12	2	10	2	16	1	13	97
22	UNLV	20	20	10	20	5	15	4	20	1	8	1	13	96
23	NC State	21	21	8	16	4	12	2	10	1	8	1	13	80
24	Baylor	14	14	5	10	3	9	1	5	1	8	1	13	59

Why does Duke math make 15 x 5 = 77? 15 x 5 = 75, 2 pts lower so Duke is 385 and UNC is #1 now with 386

 

[Zonepress]

We are prone to overestimate what we think we know about our world and underestimate the role that chance plays in events. Overconfidence is fed by the illusory certainty of hindsight.

well said!!

 

[HuskyHawk]

This never gets old, it's the biggest tell ever that you're a Kansas fan. It's always good for a laugh.

It has nothing to do with that at all. It's simply true. Kansas has won several (and no the Helms do not count). Do you think that somehow winning one championship makes Cal a better program than Houston or Purdue? Or Oregon with their one win in 1939? Loyola-Chicago is a power program? It's ridiculous.

I am quite confident that no title programs Alabama, Houston, Auburn, Wisconsin & Texas, are considered as better programs than LaSalle, Loyola-Chicago and Cal. So is Creighton for that matter. Now if you want to argue that the 13 programs that both win consistently and win titles (every multi-title team except San Francisco and Cincinatti qualifies) are the top of the heap, I agree completely. But there's a lot of never won a title programs far ahead of some that have won one and those two that won two. Would you rather be a Texas or Auburn fan over your adult life or a San Francisco fan? Over the last 20 years it's been better to be a Purdue fan than an IU fan.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Did you get rejected from the Gtown law center or something and have a grudge now? Gtown has made the tourney more than UConn since 1975 when it expanded to 32. Houston has only made it 16x. Bama has never even made the finals.

Your ranking requiring an appearance in a final is thus worthless. Remove that and run it again.

 

[bendm]

There’s only one reason why Georgetown is a historic program, and that is because Georgetown is where Patrick Ewing decided to go to play college basketball. If he had gone to UNC or UCLA things would’ve been very different.

Ifs and butts. Same can be said for Kareem and ucla or IU and Isaiah or MSU and magic. If they never won their first chips with those players who knows what they would’ve accomplished.

 

[bendm]

Your ranking requiring an appearance in a final is thus worthless. Remove that and run it again.

Worthless? It’s a bare minimum. The tourney is what matters so If you haven’t won it or appeared in the final multiple times you haven’t accomplished anything. Bama has been good for a couple years, a blip in time. If Oats leaves and they fall off Bamas bball accomplishments (1 final four?) will not be remembered. All I’ll remember is Brandon miller.

 

[bendm]

It has nothing to do with that at all. It's simply true. Kansas has won several (and no the Helms do not count). Do you think that somehow winning one championship makes Cal a better program than Houston or Purdue? Or Oregon with their one win in 1939? Loyola-Chicago is a power program? It's ridiculous.

I am quite confident that no title programs Alabama, Houston, Auburn, Wisconsin & Texas, are considered as better programs than LaSalle, Loyola-Chicago and Cal. So is Creighton for that matter. Now if you want to argue that the 13 programs that both win consistently and win titles (every multi-title team except San Francisco and Cincinatti qualifies) are the top of the heap, I agree completely. But there's a lot of never won a title programs far ahead of some that have won one and those two that won two. Would you rather be a Texas or Auburn fan over your adult life or a San Francisco fan? Over the last 20 years it's been better to be a Purdue fan than an IU fan.

No, no one is saying you should care about Cal and San Fran winning a chip or 2 when only 16 teams made the tourney and it was seeded based on geography.

Hell we should only really care about post-1984 tourney success when the field expanded to 64 but post-1975 is still an accurate reflection of modern success while throwing the traditionalists a bone. Just look at the list it speaks for itself. KU is #4 right ahead UConn how can you argue with that.

 

[superjohn]

It has nothing to do with that at all. It's simply true. Kansas has won several (and no the Helms do not count). Do you think that somehow winning one championship makes Cal a better program than Houston or Purdue? Or Oregon with their one win in 1939? Loyola-Chicago is a power program? It's ridiculous.

I am quite confident that no title programs Alabama, Houston, Auburn, Wisconsin & Texas, are considered as better programs than LaSalle, Loyola-Chicago and Cal. So is Creighton for that matter. Now if you want to argue that the 13 programs that both win consistently and win titles (every multi-title team except San Francisco and Cincinatti qualifies) are the top of the heap, I agree completely. But there's a lot of never won a title programs far ahead of some that have won one and those two that won two. Would you rather be a Texas or Auburn fan over your adult life or a San Francisco fan? Over the last 20 years it's been better to be a Purdue fan than an IU fan.

I think it's hilarious you think all-time wins are more important than NCAA national championships. Temple is 6th in all-time wins, UConn is 22nd. Tell us about how great Temple is.

 

[Tyler2Rings]

There’s only one reason why Georgetown is a historic program, and that is because Georgetown is where Patrick Ewing decided to go to play college basketball. If he had gone to UNC or UCLA things would’ve been very different.

There's only one reason why UConn is a historic program, and that is because Jim Calhoun decided to coach there. If he had gone to another school UConn would have never made a final four let alone won six championships. Hurley wouldn't have gone there either and they would be the same as UMass

But history happened and here we are

 

[Waquoit]

Pitino is doing his job. The NY Post is all-in on SJU and it must be more than hype. Most of the Johnnies articles are behind a paywall now.

 

[HuskyHawk]

I think it's hilarious you think all-time wins are more important than NCAA national championships. Temple is 6th in all-time wins, UConn is 22nd. Tell us about how great Temple is.

I don't think it's more important. I think it's a factor. If had to pick one metric it would probably NCAA tournament games played. That reflects consistent excellence in getting in (which matters a lot) and deep runs. Conference championships matter as well (regular season > tournament).

No, no one is saying you should care about Cal and San Fran winning a chip or 2 when only 16 teams made the tourney and it was seeded based on geography.

Hell we should only really care about post-1984 tourney success when the field expanded to 64 but post-1975 is still an accurate reflection of modern success while throwing the traditionalists a bone. Just look at the list it speaks for itself. KU is #4 right ahead UConn how can you argue with that.

I agree the era that matters most is the 64 team era. But reaching a final isn't critical to be a good program. Bama still hasn't done it. Texas and Notre Dame haven't done it yet have each played in over 80 NCAA tournament games and won 40. Is San Diego State more successful (26 games, 11 wins)?

I wish I could sort this by games played and eliminate at least everything pre 1975 and see what the results are. Guarantee UConn would be quite high.

 

[bendm]

I don't think it's more important. I think it's a factor. If had to pick one metric it would probably NCAA tournament games played. That reflects consistent excellence in getting in (which matters a lot) and deep runs. Conference championships matter as well (regular season > tournament).

I agree the era that matters most is the 64 team era. But reaching a final isn't critical to be a good program. Bama still hasn't done it. Texas and Notre Dame haven't done it yet have each played in over 80 NCAA tournament games and won 40. Is San Diego State more successful (26 games, 11 wins)?

I wish I could sort this by games played and eliminate at least everything pre 1975 and see what the results are. Guarantee UConn would be quite high.

Sure, my rankings could be more inclusive but it wouldn’t change the top ~20 given that winning in the latter rounds and especially winning the chip should be accorded more weight than just getting a bid. That’s why I made the cut off either winning a chip or appearing in 2 finals (because I had to include Zags and Houston). The next tier of schools would be Purdue, Georgia Tech, OSU, Texas Tech, Memphis, Illinois, Wisconsin etc but they aren’t legitimized historically until they actually win the whole thing.

 

[Cheddie]

There's only one reason why UConn is a historic program, and that is because Jim Calhoun decided to coach there. If he had gone to another school UConn would have never made a final four let alone won six championships. Hurley wouldn't have gone there either and they would be the same as UMass

But history happened and here we are

UConn had a regionally illustrious program in the 60's until the administration led it wither on the vine.

Per Wiki - Fred Shabel's teams won four Yankee Conference championships in four years, leading to three NCAA tournament berths. By the mid-1960s, UConn had appeared in the NCAA tournament 11 times, second most in the country.

Two great players: Toby Kimball played in the NBA nine years, averaging a double-double one year. Wes Bialosuknia still holds UConn scoring records. He was 2nd in the ABA in 3-point shooting %.

After the 1966–67 season, Shabel stepped down as head coach to become the athletic director at Penn. He later attributed the move to the school's ambivalence about committing greater financial resources to athletics, including the administration's decision to decline an invitation to the NIT in 1966 without consulting him.

 

[jibsey]

Pitino is doing his job. The NY Post is all-in on SJU and it must be more than hype. Most of the Johnnies articles are behind a paywall now.

NY Post? A real news and sports icon. 3/4 of what they print is innuendo, rumors and lies. And I’m being generous.

 

[superjohn]

NY Post? A real news and sports icon. 3/4 of what they print is innuendo, rumors and lies. And I’m being generous.

The Post has always had a great sports section and they've always been the best place for NY sports teams coverage.

 

[Jbirdp5]

Georgetown is a historic program with big John and Ewing for one generation and then iverson in the next generation. I was a kid during the iverson generation and he made them nationally relevant. Since that point they don’t have any great history to write home about but to the two generations of people who were cbb fans in the 80s and 90s I’d call them a historic program.

 

[Waquoit]

NY Post? A real news and sports icon. 3/4 of what they print is innuendo, rumors and lies. And I’m being generous.

I hate the Post. But the sports page is a bellweather for what's hot on the NY sports scene.

 

[NJHusky]

This is the crux of the argument.

We got eliminated in the second round of the tournament and this board reacted as if we had a horrifically bad season.

St John's gets eliminated in the second round of the tournament and we're acting like they should have a parade.

But their fans are acting like they won the whole thing

 

[NJHusky]

I recall there being a thread when Cooley was about to take the job and the merits of the Gtown program were discussed at length.
I wonder if we have enough of a big east bias which may make the program seem more meaningful.
I think Georgetown would only classify as historic because of the definition of the word. It was waaaay in the past. We wouldn't call Baylor bball historic simply because they have had their "80's georgetown-esque" success recently.

I think a big part of Georgetown being a historic program is that Big John was the first African American coach to win a title. Plus they made the FF4 3 times with a player like Ewing. After that they had some moderate success with Iverson, Motumbo and Mourning that ended in the early 90s

They were really relevant for a 10 year run….after that how are they different than St. John’s?