Just when you thought you knew... | Page 2 | The Boneyard

Just when you thought you knew...

FfldCntyFan said:
This is the crux of the argument.

We got eliminated in the second round of the tournament and this board reacted as if we had a horrifically bad season.

St John's gets eliminated in the second round of the tournament and we're acting like they should have a parade.
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Because for St. Johns, that is one of their great seasons.
 
Jaydumo20 said:
I recall there being a thread when Cooley was about to take the job and the merits of the Gtown program were discussed at length.
I wonder if we have enough of a big east bias which may make the program seem more meaningful.
I think Georgetown would only classify as historic because of the definition of the word. It was waaaay in the past. We wouldn't call Baylor bball historic simply because they have had their "80's georgetown-esque" success recently.
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I was an outlier. Georgetown is a truly special academic institution. The basketball program is a distant memory. U San Francisco was great once too. There's nothing special about Georgetown now. Honestly, the city doesn't really support them. PC gets better support.
 
FfldCntyFan said:
In all candor, it is you who is missing points, but I believe that this is intentional.

Please elaborate on the number of reasons Georgetown is historic.
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Georgetown was the program for black America and black urban culture. John Thompson was iconic and they were the program/brand which instantly legitimized the Big East and made the Big East a national powerhouse. John Thompson was the first black coach to win a national championship. They ushered in a physical in your face brand of basketball people hadn't seen before and they were feared. Hoya Paranoia They were big man U. They had iconic players. They were hugely influential in the landscape of college basketball.
 
superjohn said:
Georgetown was the program for black America and black urban culture. John Thompson was iconic and they were the program/brand which instantly legitimized the Big East and made the Big East a national powerhouse. John Thompson was the first black coach to win a national championship. They ushered in a physical in your face brand of basketball people hadn't seen before and they were feared. Hoya Paranoia They were big man U. They had iconic players. They were hugely influential in the landscape of college basketball.
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Not untrue, but too much in the past to widely resonate today UNLESS success on the court reinvigorates a narrative that major media will all too willingly run with...not unlike the framing of SJU's succes this season...until it came to an abrupt stop.

I remain personally in favor of Cooley continuing to not impress.

Ideally, I'd favor at least a season or two of sputtering even if he should start to show success in building a roster that offers hope that he's on his way to possibility.

His "one job" is to beat Syracuse each year. Incremental improvement against DePaul would be nice but more necessary for his backers than for the conference.
 
superjohn said:
Georgetown was the program for black America and black urban culture. John Thompson was iconic and they were the program/brand which instantly legitimized the Big East and made the Big East a national powerhouse. John Thompson was the first black coach to win a national championship. They ushered in a physical in your face brand of basketball people hadn't seen before and they were feared. Hoya Paranoia They were big man U. They had iconic players. They were hugely influential in the landscape of college basketball.
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That was how long ago?

Run DMC (to paraphrase Pitino) isn't walking through that door. Adidas superstars are now miles behind Air Jordans. The kids who embraced that look are all now in their 50's. We are now more than a decade further removed from those days than they were removed from Bill Russell's USF back to back titles.

That was an entirely different world. Making believe what mattered then will matter now is similar to believing Blockbuster Video will make a comeback.
 
FfldCntyFan said:
That was how long ago?

Run DMC (to paraphrase Pitino) isn't walking through that door. Adidas superstars are now miles behind Air Jordans. The kids who embraced that look are all now in their 50's. We are now more than a decade further removed from those days than they were removed from Bill Russell's USF back to back titles.

That was an entirely different world. Making believe what mattered then will matter now is similar to believing Blockbuster Video will make a comeback.
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Run DMC is a historic music group/rap group.
 
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superjohn said:
Run DMC is a historic music group/rap group.
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When was the last time they issued any new material?

What are the odds that more than maybe three or four of the kids who played in the McDonald's AA game can name any of their songs or any members of the group.
 
FfldCntyFan said:
When was the last time they issued any new material?

What are the odds that more than maybe three or four of the kids who played in the McDonald's AA game can name any of their songs or any members of the group.
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You're now arguing Georgetown isn't good currently and Run DMC isn't coming out with any current hits. Duh, we all know that.

Your original argument was the few people who think Georgetown is a historic program are delusional. Georgetown is a historic college basketball program and Run DMC is a historic music group/rap group.
 
superjohn said:
Run DMC is a historic music group/rap group.
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And I get what it is that you are trying to do. You're making believe that other members of our conference are far more substantial programs than they really are. Nothing good is going to come from keeping your head in the sand.

This past tournament we had zero teams make it beyond the first weekend. The BE currently has UConn, whatever Pitino has left for St John's, Creighton (until McDermott's early retirement kicks in) a flawed but pretty good Marquette and the hope of some real results with Georgetown and Nova. I'm not wishing any harm on any program but I am also not about to claim that a pile of average to below average programs are something very good.
 
FfldCntyFan said:
And I get what it is that you are trying to do. You're making believe that other members of our conference are far more substantial programs than they really are. Nothing good is going to come from keeping your head in the sand.

This past tournament we had zero teams make it beyond the first weekend. The BE currently has UConn, whatever Pitino has left for St John's, Creighton (until McDermott's early retirement kicks in) a flawed but pretty good Marquette and the hope of some real results with Georgetown and Nova. I'm not wishing any harm on any program but I am also not about to claim that a pile of average to below average programs are something very good.
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You're trying to redefine "historic." I have no idea what your motivations for doing this are.
 
superjohn said:
You're now arguing Georgetown isn't good currently and Run DMC isn't coming out with any current hits. Duh, we all know that.

Your original argument was the few people who think Georgetown is a historic program are delusional. Georgetown is a historic college basketball program and Run DMC is a historic music group/rap group.
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Bill Russell's USF teams were part of a historic program (they also had KC Jones) that had a few very good runs up through the early 1980's.

I don't believe anyone views that program as having much gravitas today.
 
superjohn said:
You're trying to redefine "historic." I have no idea what your motivations for doing this are.
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I'm pretty sure I know what you are trying to do. I personally don't want someone to hand me a bucket of piss and try to tell me it's rain water.
 
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FfldCntyFan said:
I'm pretty sure I know what you are trying to do. I personally don't want someone to hand me a bucket of piss and try to tell me it's rain water.
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Georgetown basketball is significant in college basketball history, I already gave you a bunch of reasons why. They're a historic college basketball program.

Buzz Aldrin isn't currently travelling to space. Buzz Aldrin is a historic astronaut.

You're now talking about buckets of piss instead of just admitting you made a mistake or admitting you don't know what the word historic means.
 
superjohn said:
Of course not, nobody in the country this season could match up with UConn's team last season.

I think it's weird people can't just admit St. John's had a great season.

Reading comprehension brother. You completely missed the point on Jay Wright and Rollie.

Georgetown is a historic program for a # of reasons.
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Hard to deny:


Google Search

www.google.com
 
superjohn said:
Georgetown basketball is significant in college basketball history, I already gave you a bunch of reasons why. They're a historic college basketball program.

Buzz Aldrin isn't currently travelling to space. Buzz Aldrin is a historic astronaut.

You're now talking about buckets of piss instead of just admitting you made a mistake or admitting you don't know what the word historic means.
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I have a slightly different definition, or more precisely, I hold terms like that to a higher standard than you do.

The run that Georgetown had when Ewing was there was historic (few schools made it to three championship games in four years), the program however, which needs to be viewed through an immensely broader scope, is not historic.

If we hold it to your standards, Oklahoma State, San Francisco, Ohio State, Cincinnati at a minimum are also historic programs and the door likely needs to be held open for Houston, LaSalle, perhaps Bradley, Davidson and Dayton as well.

At some point a line needs to be drawn or there is no way to distinguish standard bearers from also rans.
 
I don't care if Georgetown is "historic". It's a small school and gets minimal support in the DC metro. It has rich alumni so maybe a few years of success can change that. But as a current basketball "power" it's vastly below not very historic programs like Iowa State. Being historic is only useful if you can maintain the fanbase, which usually requires some level of success. A lot of former power programs are finding they can't trade on that reputation anymore. When was Georgia Tech last relevant? DePaul? Notre Dame? Oklahoma State? Utah? Yes, Syracuse too.

Georgetown is #45 on the all time wins list. Just above Utah State.
 
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FfldCntyFan said:
We got eliminated in the second round of the tournament and this board reacted as if we had a horrifically bad season.
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Eliminated by two points, to the eventual national champions. Just saying.
 
FfldCntyFan said:
.I don't know how to break this to you but Rollie won big in the tournament (biggest prize possible) in far less time than Jay Wright. In fact, he won a title at Villanova a couple of years quicker than Jim Calhoun won one at UConn. Only a fool would give someone credit prior to his deserving it.

Nova has a great basketball history. They'll be good when they are good again, not when you decide to deem them as being good. And for the record, Willard is closer to being another Lappas than being another Massimino or Wright. If he demonstrates that he can be more than that, I'll give him credit. Until then, he's merely Ralph Willard's kid.



Out of curiosity, is North Carolina State an historic program? What about Michigan? In all candor, Georgetown is no more of an historic program than Arkansas (I'd also like to know how you feel about their qualifications as historic). Georgetown had a (very brief) great run with Ewing (the senior John Thompson's only three final four appearances) with one title and a bit of a decent run (one additional final four) with his son. The schools I mentioned all accomplished a lot more over a far longer period of time.
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Rollie knew how to make good players great players better than any coach I’ve ever seen, possibly with the exception of Geno or Al McGuire.
 
FfldCntyFan said:
I have a slightly different definition, or more precisely, I hold terms like that to a higher standard than you do.

The run that Georgetown had when Ewing was there was historic (few schools made it to three championship games in four years), the program however, which needs to be viewed through an immensely broader scope, is not historic.

If we hold it to your standards, Oklahoma State, San Francisco, Ohio State, Cincinnati at a minimum are also historic programs and the door likely needs to be held open for Houston, LaSalle, perhaps Bradley, Davidson and Dayton as well.

At some point a line needs to be drawn or there is no way to distinguish standard bearers from also rans.
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This is a bunch of claptrap. You challenged superjohn to cite reasons why Georgetown was in fact a historic program. He gave you several reasons (all of which are valid). You then moved the goalposts, as if there’s a freakin expiration date on history.

What are you on about here, anyway?
 
EnochRoot said:
This is a bunch of claptrap. You challenged superjohn to cite reasons why Georgetown was in fact a historic program. He gave you several reasons (all of which are valid). You then moved the goalposts, as if there’s a freakin expiration date on history.

What are you on about here, anyway?
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Not moving any goalposts, merely using what I believe is a far more valid definition of historic. If you want to call the team that had Ewing and played in three national title games historic, I wont disagree. If you want to call the Georgetown program historic, i recommend setting your standards a bit higher.
 
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HuskyHawk said:
I don't care if Georgetown is "historic". It's a small school and gets minimal support in the DC metro. It has rich alumni so maybe a few years of success can change that. But as a current basketball "power" it's vastly below not very historic programs like Iowa State. Being historic is only useful if you can maintain the fanbase, which usually requires some level of success. A lot of former power programs are finding they can't trade on that reputation anymore. When was Georgia Tech last relevant? DePaul? Notre Dame? Oklahoma State? Utah? Yes, Syracuse too.

Georgetown is #45 on the all time wins list. Just above Utah State.
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Kansas is #1 in all-time wins, UConn is #22. Kansas has won 3 NCAA tournaments in the past 72 tournaments, UConn won 6 in the past 26 tournaments. Temple is 6th in all-time wins, Cuse is 7th, Notre Dame is 8th, St. John's is 9th. Those 4 programs have won 1 NCAA tournament between them.
 
superjohn said:
Georgetown was the program for black America and black urban culture. John Thompson was iconic and they were the program/brand which instantly legitimized the Big East and made the Big East a national powerhouse. John Thompson was the first black coach to win a national championship. They ushered in a physical in your face brand of basketball people hadn't seen before and they were feared. Hoya Paranoia They were big man U. They had iconic players. They were hugely influential in the landscape of college basketball.
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This is one reason why people dislike Pitino and St. John’s.
“If we beat them, we will win the National Championship,” Pitino told his team the night before its matchup with the Razorbacks. “This is the most athletic team we will face, there’s a lot of great teams, but if we beat them, we will win it all.”

He doesn’t need to prove it on the court, just take his word for it, the POS chimed!
And after winning that imaginary National Championship his high and mighty team would not be shaking hands with their imaginary beaten opponents. Hail hail St. John’s.
 
Hans Sprungfeld said:
Is UConn a historic or historical basketball program, you know, like St John's and Georgetown are?
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18 National Championships, and with more to come, in the sport of basketball over a 30 year period seems pretty historic to me. Throw in Field Hockey and soccer and it’s like 26 National Championships.
 
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superjohn said:
Kansas is #1 in all-time wins, UConn is #22. Kansas has won 3 NCAA tournaments in the past 72 tournaments, UConn won 6 in the past 26 tournaments. Temple is 6th in all-time wins, Cuse is 7th, Notre Dame is 8th, St. John's is 9th. Those 4 programs have won 1 NCAA tournament between them.
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Maybe this discussion should categorize schools into 3 buckets: historic program, relevant program and Blue Blood program.

For the sake of this argument, I would classify Georgetown as historic but not relevant or a blue blood. UConn would be historic. relevant and blue blood program and Duke would be the same. St. John’s would be historic, not relevant at this time and not a blue blood.
 
Jaydumo20 said:
I recall there being a thread when Cooley was about to take the job and the merits of the Gtown program were discussed at length.
I wonder if we have enough of a big east bias which may make the program seem more meaningful.
I think Georgetown would only classify as historic because of the definition of the word. It was waaaay in the past. We wouldn't call Baylor bball historic simply because they have had their "80's georgetown-esque" success recently.
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It's impossible to compare regular season wins because the conferences were not created equal. As you said the tourney is all that matters, it's the great equalizer. The modern college bball era began in 1975 when the tourney expanded to 32 teams, it was a joke before then. In the modern era Gtown is a top 15 program, by definition that's not ancient history. Below, the values for each round are based on the Fibonacci sequence where each number is the sum of the previous two. A school needs to have won the chip or made it to at least 2 finals to qualify.

Rank 1975+TeamBidsx1Sweet 16x2Elite 8x3Final 4x5Finalsx8Champx13Total
1Duke42423060216315771080565387
2UNC4646316222661575972565386
3Kentucky4242306022561155756452321
4Kansas4343244816481050648339276
5UConn272717341236735648678258
6Louisville363621421236840324339217
7UCLA383823461133840432226215
8MSU363620401339945324226210
9Indiana39391836824525432339195
10Florida252512241030630432339180
11Michigan272715301030630648113178
12Villanova313113261030525324339175
13Syracuse37372142824630324113170
14Arizona383821421133420216113162
15Georgetown30301122824420324113133
15Arkansas32321428824420216113133
17Virginia2626102072142018113108
18Houston161691861852532400101
19Gonzaga272714286182102160099
20Maryland30301428392101811398
21Marquette282891841221021611397
22UNLV202010205154201811396
23NC State21218164122101811380
24Baylor141451039151811359
 
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EnochRoot said:
This is a bunch of claptrap. You challenged superjohn to cite reasons why Georgetown was in fact a historic program. He gave you several reasons (all of which are valid). You then moved the goalposts, as if there’s a freakin expiration date on history.

What are you on about here, anyway?
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There’s only one reason why Georgetown is a historic program, and that is because Georgetown is where Patrick Ewing decided to go to play college basketball. If he had gone to UNC or UCLA things would’ve been very different.
 
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