Just when you thought you knew...

[Jaydumo20]

In all candor, it is you who is missing points, but I believe that this is intentional.

Please elaborate on the number of reasons Georgetown is historic.

I recall there being a thread when Cooley was about to take the job and the merits of the Gtown program were discussed at length.
I wonder if we have enough of a big east bias which may make the program seem more meaningful.
I think Georgetown would only classify as historic because of the definition of the word. It was waaaay in the past. We wouldn't call Baylor bball historic simply because they have had their "80's georgetown-esque" success recently.

 

[REB1094]

St. John’s had a very successful year, one of the best years in the history of their program

Imagine in 2024 we lost to Northwestern in the second round. At the most surface level, the seasons would be pretty similar. High seed that ran through the BE and flamed out in a 2nd round upset

St John’s hadn’t made the 2nd round in 20 years. UConn won the title 1 year ago. For St John’s that is a historic season. For UConn it’d be a disappointment

Context matters

 

[ucp990411]

They won pretty big this past season.

For them yes.

 

[alexd]

And yet... Pitino said if they had just beaten Arkansas they would have won it all....

Rick Pitino says St. John's would have won National Championship with Arkansas win

The St. John's basketball season ended two weeks ago but Rick Pitino thinks his team would have won the National Championship with a win over Arkansas.

stormthepaint.com

 

[Hans Sprungfeld]

What did St. John's do? They ran away with the conference regular season title and blew everyone out in the conference tournament. They had a much better season than UConn did.

And lost to a 10th seeded Calipari team in the second round. A fair-minded observer would sooner regard this as an indictment on the 2024-25 Big East than anything more impressive. I'm surprised that you're framing it any other way, even if it's a harsh look for our own conference.

Up until the NCAA Tournament, SJU's 18-2 record and BET crown looked almost on par with last season's UConn team. Then the Big East got 5 teams into the tourney instead of the prior year's 3.

While it's true that 2023-24 crushed its way to a Natty, St. John's didn't just fall a little short. For a more recent experience of domination, you'd have to look at the WBB team for a truer perspective, even if we both saw SJU rise to and meet its challenges in an impressive way throughout the regular season & conference tourney.

 

[HuskyHawk]

This is the crux of the argument.

We got eliminated in the second round of the tournament and this board reacted as if we had a horrifically bad season.

St John's gets eliminated in the second round of the tournament and we're acting like they should have a parade.

Because for St. Johns, that is one of their great seasons.

 

[HuskyHawk]

I recall there being a thread when Cooley was about to take the job and the merits of the Gtown program were discussed at length.
I wonder if we have enough of a big east bias which may make the program seem more meaningful.
I think Georgetown would only classify as historic because of the definition of the word. It was waaaay in the past. We wouldn't call Baylor bball historic simply because they have had their "80's georgetown-esque" success recently.

I was an outlier. Georgetown is a truly special academic institution. The basketball program is a distant memory. U San Francisco was great once too. There's nothing special about Georgetown now. Honestly, the city doesn't really support them. PC gets better support.

 

[superjohn]

In all candor, it is you who is missing points, but I believe that this is intentional.

Please elaborate on the number of reasons Georgetown is historic.

Georgetown was the program for black America and black urban culture. John Thompson was iconic and they were the program/brand which instantly legitimized the Big East and made the Big East a national powerhouse. John Thompson was the first black coach to win a national championship. They ushered in a physical in your face brand of basketball people hadn't seen before and they were feared. Hoya Paranoia They were big man U. They had iconic players. They were hugely influential in the landscape of college basketball.

 

[Hans Sprungfeld]

Georgetown was the program for black America and black urban culture. John Thompson was iconic and they were the program/brand which instantly legitimized the Big East and made the Big East a national powerhouse. John Thompson was the first black coach to win a national championship. They ushered in a physical in your face brand of basketball people hadn't seen before and they were feared. Hoya Paranoia They were big man U. They had iconic players. They were hugely influential in the landscape of college basketball.

Not untrue, but too much in the past to widely resonate today UNLESS success on the court reinvigorates a narrative that major media will all too willingly run with...not unlike the framing of SJU's succes this season...until it came to an abrupt stop.

I remain personally in favor of Cooley continuing to not impress.

Ideally, I'd favor at least a season or two of sputtering even if he should start to show success in building a roster that offers hope that he's on his way to possibility.

His "one job" is to beat Syracuse each year. Incremental improvement against DePaul would be nice but more necessary for his backers than for the conference.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

Georgetown was the program for black America and black urban culture. John Thompson was iconic and they were the program/brand which instantly legitimized the Big East and made the Big East a national powerhouse. John Thompson was the first black coach to win a national championship. They ushered in a physical in your face brand of basketball people hadn't seen before and they were feared. Hoya Paranoia They were big man U. They had iconic players. They were hugely influential in the landscape of college basketball.

That was how long ago?

Run DMC (to paraphrase Pitino) isn't walking through that door. Adidas superstars are now miles behind Air Jordans. The kids who embraced that look are all now in their 50's. We are now more than a decade further removed from those days than they were removed from Bill Russell's USF back to back titles.

That was an entirely different world. Making believe what mattered then will matter now is similar to believing Blockbuster Video will make a comeback.

 

[superjohn]

That was how long ago?

Run DMC (to paraphrase Pitino) isn't walking through that door. Adidas superstars are now miles behind Air Jordans. The kids who embraced that look are all now in their 50's. We are now more than a decade further removed from those days than they were removed from Bill Russell's USF back to back titles.

That was an entirely different world. Making believe what mattered then will matter now is similar to believing Blockbuster Video will make a comeback.

Run DMC is a historic music group/rap group.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

Run DMC is a historic music group/rap group.

When was the last time they issued any new material?

What are the odds that more than maybe three or four of the kids who played in the McDonald's AA game can name any of their songs or any members of the group.

 

[superjohn]

When was the last time they issued any new material?

What are the odds that more than maybe three or four of the kids who played in the McDonald's AA game can name any of their songs or any members of the group.

You're now arguing Georgetown isn't good currently and Run DMC isn't coming out with any current hits. Duh, we all know that.

Your original argument was the few people who think Georgetown is a historic program are delusional. Georgetown is a historic college basketball program and Run DMC is a historic music group/rap group.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

Run DMC is a historic music group/rap group.

And I get what it is that you are trying to do. You're making believe that other members of our conference are far more substantial programs than they really are. Nothing good is going to come from keeping your head in the sand.

This past tournament we had zero teams make it beyond the first weekend. The BE currently has UConn, whatever Pitino has left for St John's, Creighton (until McDermott's early retirement kicks in) a flawed but pretty good Marquette and the hope of some real results with Georgetown and Nova. I'm not wishing any harm on any program but I am also not about to claim that a pile of average to below average programs are something very good.

 

[superjohn]

And I get what it is that you are trying to do. You're making believe that other members of our conference are far more substantial programs than they really are. Nothing good is going to come from keeping your head in the sand.

This past tournament we had zero teams make it beyond the first weekend. The BE currently has UConn, whatever Pitino has left for St John's, Creighton (until McDermott's early retirement kicks in) a flawed but pretty good Marquette and the hope of some real results with Georgetown and Nova. I'm not wishing any harm on any program but I am also not about to claim that a pile of average to below average programs are something very good.

You're trying to redefine "historic." I have no idea what your motivations for doing this are.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

You're now arguing Georgetown isn't good currently and Run DMC isn't coming out with any current hits. Duh, we all know that.

Your original argument was the few people who think Georgetown is a historic program are delusional. Georgetown is a historic college basketball program and Run DMC is a historic music group/rap group.

Bill Russell's USF teams were part of a historic program (they also had KC Jones) that had a few very good runs up through the early 1980's.

I don't believe anyone views that program as having much gravitas today.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

You're trying to redefine "historic." I have no idea what your motivations for doing this are.

I'm pretty sure I know what you are trying to do. I personally don't want someone to hand me a bucket of piss and try to tell me it's rain water.

 

[UConnTrumbull]

Bill Russell's USF teams were part of a historic program (they also had KC Jones) that had a few very good runs up through the early 1980's.

I don't believe anyone views that program as having much gravitas today.

Texas El Paso historic as well

 

[superjohn]

I'm pretty sure I know what you are trying to do. I personally don't want someone to hand me a bucket of piss and try to tell me it's rain water.

Georgetown basketball is significant in college basketball history, I already gave you a bunch of reasons why. They're a historic college basketball program.

Buzz Aldrin isn't currently travelling to space. Buzz Aldrin is a historic astronaut.

You're now talking about buckets of piss instead of just admitting you made a mistake or admitting you don't know what the word historic means.

 

[dennismenace]

Of course not, nobody in the country this season could match up with UConn's team last season.

I think it's weird people can't just admit St. John's had a great season.

Reading comprehension brother. You completely missed the point on Jay Wright and Rollie.

Georgetown is a historic program for a # of reasons.

Hard to deny:

Google Search

 

[FfldCntyFan]

Georgetown basketball is significant in college basketball history, I already gave you a bunch of reasons why. They're a historic college basketball program.

Buzz Aldrin isn't currently travelling to space. Buzz Aldrin is a historic astronaut.

You're now talking about buckets of piss instead of just admitting you made a mistake or admitting you don't know what the word historic means.

I have a slightly different definition, or more precisely, I hold terms like that to a higher standard than you do.

The run that Georgetown had when Ewing was there was historic (few schools made it to three championship games in four years), the program however, which needs to be viewed through an immensely broader scope, is not historic.

If we hold it to your standards, Oklahoma State, San Francisco, Ohio State, Cincinnati at a minimum are also historic programs and the door likely needs to be held open for Houston, LaSalle, perhaps Bradley, Davidson and Dayton as well.

At some point a line needs to be drawn or there is no way to distinguish standard bearers from also rans.

 

[dennismenace]

You're trying to redefine "historic." I have no idea what your motivations for doing this are.

From a long term perspective (Historical):

Google Search

 

[HuskyHawk]

I don't care if Georgetown is "historic". It's a small school and gets minimal support in the DC metro. It has rich alumni so maybe a few years of success can change that. But as a current basketball "power" it's vastly below not very historic programs like Iowa State. Being historic is only useful if you can maintain the fanbase, which usually requires some level of success. A lot of former power programs are finding they can't trade on that reputation anymore. When was Georgia Tech last relevant? DePaul? Notre Dame? Oklahoma State? Utah? Yes, Syracuse too.

Georgetown is #45 on the all time wins list. Just above Utah State.

 

[CL82]

We got eliminated in the second round of the tournament and this board reacted as if we had a horrifically bad season.

Eliminated by two points, to the eventual national champions. Just saying.

 

[CONN78SEJ]

.I don't know how to break this to you but Rollie won big in the tournament (biggest prize possible) in far less time than Jay Wright. In fact, he won a title at Villanova a couple of years quicker than Jim Calhoun won one at UConn. Only a fool would give someone credit prior to his deserving it.

Nova has a great basketball history. They'll be good when they are good again, not when you decide to deem them as being good. And for the record, Willard is closer to being another Lappas than being another Massimino or Wright. If he demonstrates that he can be more than that, I'll give him credit. Until then, he's merely Ralph Willard's kid.



Out of curiosity, is North Carolina State an historic program? What about Michigan? In all candor, Georgetown is no more of an historic program than Arkansas (I'd also like to know how you feel about their qualifications as historic). Georgetown had a (very brief) great run with Ewing (the senior John Thompson's only three final four appearances) with one title and a bit of a decent run (one additional final four) with his son. The schools I mentioned all accomplished a lot more over a far longer period of time.

Rollie knew how to make good players great players better than any coach I’ve ever seen, possibly with the exception of Geno or Al McGuire.