Jim Fuller: Are there too many former UConn players on the U.S. women’s basketball team? | Page 2 | The Boneyard

Jim Fuller: Are there too many former UConn players on the U.S. women’s basketball team?

Justavisitor

Unpopular Opinions
Joined
Sep 13, 2011
Messages
541
Reaction Score
881
What will be said if the 2020 team consist of the following;Maya,Tina,Stewart,Taurasi,Jefferson,Hayes,Dolson KLS or possibly Stokes?I predict barring any serious injuries at least 5 ,possibly 6 from that list will be on that team. Taurasi will probably fit the role of Catchings.I might be bias ,but Hayes and Jefferson could have replaced Simone and Whalen. Both are definitely better defensive players.How good will KML be in four years?

2020 prediction - Maya, Tina, and Stewart (I would be surprised if Diana is still playing then, but if so, then add her). Possibly Jefferson, but the competition will be very heavy with Sims, Diggins, and Loyd in the mix.
 

Orangutan

South Bend Simian
Joined
Apr 17, 2014
Messages
5,868
Reaction Score
26,702
I don't think it's a stretch to think Parker, Nneka, Sims, January, Diggins, and Loyd are just as good, if not better than some already on the team.

For what it's worth, since I didn't include them in my previous post, the PERs for Diggins, January, and Sims:

January - 14.5
Sims - 12.4
Diggins - 13.9 (24.9 before knee injury last year)

Personally, no qualms about any of them missing out for me. If Diggins gets back to her pre-injury form, she should be in the mix. I still think she should have been on the Worlds team.
 

EricLA

Cronus
Joined
Aug 24, 2011
Messages
14,985
Reaction Score
81,486
I think all 3 guards are currently better than Bird, but I know that's not popular to say here. I would certainly look at more than simply points and assists. There defense is definitely alot better and if there is any area of concern for this team getting the gold, it would have to be defensive concerns.

As for individual talents, these same players are also great teammates.
Ask any expert who the best PG in the world is at this time. Bird is not a SG, she's THE PG. She leads the league in assists by a wide margin. She's #20 in the league in scoring on a team where she doesn't need to score much given the talent surrounding her. Her 3 point % is better, her TO's are lower, and she's another coach on the court. It has zero to do with what's popular on the board. It's an opinion held by pretty much every expert that she's the best.
 

Justavisitor

Unpopular Opinions
Joined
Sep 13, 2011
Messages
541
Reaction Score
881
You must not watch much basketball then. Ask any expert who the best PG in the world is at this time. Bird is not a SG, she's THE PG. She leads the league in assists by a wide margin. She's #20 in the league in scoring on a team where she doesn't need to score much given the talent surrounding her. Her 3 point % is better, her TO's are lower, and she's another coach on the court. It has zero to do with what's popular on the board. It's an opinion held by pretty much every expert that she's the best.

I disagree and yes, I do watch. Everyone doesn't agree that she's the best TODAY. That's an inaccurate statement. Her turnovers are lower, because due to her age and slower speed, she's keeping things very basic. She's still a very smart player and she knows not to take the same risks she did previously in her younger years. She doesn't break the defense down with her penetration any more and her defense just isn't there. This equates to the opponents out scoring them, thus having only 9 wins at this point of the season. With 2 Olympians on their team, if they are as good as advertised here, they'd have more wins.
 

Justavisitor

Unpopular Opinions
Joined
Sep 13, 2011
Messages
541
Reaction Score
881
And final comment, I know I won't change any one's mind here, but I do think it's good to see that there are varying perspectives and opinions across the landscape of women's basketball. Agreement isn't necessary!
 

wallman

UCLA Bruin
Joined
Oct 11, 2011
Messages
1,184
Reaction Score
2,376
Yes. It would be best to have more universities represented. Stanford was a main stay in the final 4 and then Notre Dame has been in the final 4 for many years. These teams don't have that type of success without having a player that is worthy of being on the Olympic team. Yes, Candace Parker should also be on the team. The more universities that are represented, the better it is for the growth of the game. They should have dwindled the list down and then named the final team after surveying their play in the WNBA this season. By doing this, they could have easily seen who the best performers are right now. More youth should be on the team and unless a player is still a superstar performing at the same level they did in their early years, they shouldn't be given an automatic bid. It should be earned.

Are you serious, is this like lets put a player from each rec league team just because each coach would vote for their own player and not who would make up the best TEAM and play together as a TEAM! The college representation should have NO bearing on this, or you are just like all those nuts who say that the Uconn players are on the team because Geno is the coach.

Just because a player does such and such in the W should also not decide whether they make the TEAM. What that player does on their team may be due to the fact that they are a ball hog or have to jack up a ton of shots as others on the team have difficulty scoring. They also could be playing a position on their W team that they would not be able to play for USA. Whether fans like it or not, some of their favorite players are not great teammates, they don't read the game of basketball as they are so used to getting their own and they don't understand team defense. Unless you are in the room watching them practice, you do not know what they are really like i.e. ethic, IQ, chemistry etc.

There will always be a higher contingent of Uconn players as they play the best TEAM basketball PERIOD. They know how to play their role better than any other players in the country, obviously. If homer college fans cannot see that, then they don't know basketball and they are not a real fan of TEAM basketball.
 

EricLA

Cronus
Joined
Aug 24, 2011
Messages
14,985
Reaction Score
81,486
I disagree and yes, I do watch. Everyone doesn't agree that she's the best TODAY. That's an inaccurate statement. Her turnovers are lower, because due to her age and slower speed, she's keeping things very basic. She's still a very smart player and she knows not to take the same risks she did previously in her younger years. She doesn't break the defense down with her penetration any more and her defense just isn't there. This equates to the opponents out scoring them, thus having only 9 wins at this point of the season. With 2 Olympians on their team, if they are as good as advertised here, they'd have more wins.
Clearly there's no point in arguing with someone who has orange tinted glasses. Comparing her to how good she has been a decade ago has zero to do with her talents right now compared to the others you mentioned. Even a step slower, she's still the best in the world. There's much more to being a PG than breaking down the defense. Chicago and Phx also both have 2 Olympians on the team and they both have similar records to Seattle. Those arguments are silly. Just like the arguments that some had "take the top 10 scorers in the WNBA and they should be on the team". LOL.
 

EricLA

Cronus
Joined
Aug 24, 2011
Messages
14,985
Reaction Score
81,486
Are you serious, is this like lets put a player from each rec league team just because each coach would vote for their own player and not who would make up the best TEAM and play together as a TEAM! The college representation should have NO bearing on this, or you are just like all those nuts who say that the Uconn players are on the team because Geno is the coach.

Just because a player does such and such in the W should also not decide whether they make the TEAM. What that player does on their team may be due to the fact that they are a ball hog or have to jack up a ton of shots as others on the team have difficulty scoring. They also could be playing a position on their W team that they would not be able to play for USA. Whether fans like it or not, some of their favorite players are not great teammates, they don't read the game of basketball as they are so used to getting their own and they don't understand team defense. Unless you are in the room watching them practice, you do not know what they are really like i.e. ethic, IQ, chemistry etc.

There will always be a higher contingent of Uconn players as they play the best TEAM basketball PERIOD. They know how to play their role better than any other players in the country, obviously. If homer college fans cannot see that, then they don't know basketball and they are not a real fan of TEAM basketball.
If I could only hit "like" 100 times for this LOL
 

Orangutan

South Bend Simian
Joined
Apr 17, 2014
Messages
5,868
Reaction Score
26,702
Of course the best TEAM in the WNBA features Nneka Ogwumike who is scoring with historic efficiency. She's not on the TEAM.

Jacking up a ton of shots is Tina Charles (102 more than anyone else in the league). She is on the TEAM.

It makes me really uncomfortable that folks want to use "Maybe she's a bad teammate" to justify any top player being left off the team.
 

Gate81

'Gate Grad Likes Cardinal & UConn Best
Joined
Jun 17, 2014
Messages
365
Reaction Score
532
2020 prediction - Maya, Tina, and Stewart (I would be surprised if Diana is still playing then, but if so, then add her). Possibly Jefferson, but the competition will be very heavy with Sims, Diggins, and Loyd in the mix.
Of course the best TEAM in the WNBA features Nneka Ogwumike who is scoring with historic efficiency. She's not on the TEAM.

Jacking up a ton of shots is Tina Charles (102 more than anyone else in the league). She is on the TEAM.

It makes me really uncomfortable that folks want to use "Maybe she's a bad teammate" to justify any top player being left off the team.
Agreed, and I think the folks who argue that this currently is a meritocracy are missing that the argument is that it currently is NOT a meritocracy. Could be that all the UConn players belong there, but the issue is deeper. What about all the Lynx players given that their coach is an Asst Coach? Also, there seems to be too much sentimentality -- "letting" people go out after 2016 when their caliber of play NOW is not up to the level of the competition. If the Select team had included Nneka and Candace, don't you think they would have beaten the current Olympic team in that Exhibition game? Those are two very powerful players, and you combine that with young, fast and effective guards such as Sims, Diggins and Loyd and watch out!
 
Joined
Feb 18, 2016
Messages
3,628
Reaction Score
11,973
Has been said before, but this is an unusual confluence of UConn generations. Sue Bird and Diana are still playing at a very advanced age. Then you have the newbie Breanna. And the mid-career greats Tina and Maya.

But come 2020, Sue and D won't be there. Will Moriah be able to win a place? Probably, but not guaranteed. Lloyd is a great one, as is Sims. Nneka will have to be put on the team. And Aja Jones certainly looks like a can't-miss as well.

So this team is part of UConn's Golden Age. We should savor it while we can. No guarantees that we will see the like ever again.
 

Jmpenn

LVFan; Equitable Visitor
Joined
Sep 13, 2011
Messages
165
Reaction Score
330
I actually think that's a HUGE stretch. Sims, January, Diggins, and Loyd are not as good as any player chosen ahead of them on the team for their positions. Sims and January are not better than Bird, and it's a stretch to say they are better than Whalen. Diggins is not even on the map at this time and Loyd is not better than Taurasi or McCaughtry. MAYBE you can make the argument she's better than Augustus. Individually. But this is a TEAM.

And this team was selected before the WNBA season had a chance to really get rolling. They had tryouts. The team was selected. If you wanted to argue that Parker should have been on at the expense of Catch, that's about the only spot she could have taken, and no way was a player who has given so much to team USA over the years going to be left off the team.

Bottom line, the US National Team has always been about the team. It's about selecting the best team, not selecting players with the best individual talents. Any player not selected needs to look inside and see what she can do differently/better to have a shot at the WC team in 2018...
I as a TN fan would of course pick Parker over multiple players but will just make the case for one. Why not over Augustus? Yes Augustus is a guard but I see Parker bring the ball up much more than Augustus. Parker is also second in the league in assists. Beating all the guards out there except Bird. For LA she does a lot of running of the offense from the forward position. She is also shooting better from the 3 point line. Her versatility allows so many options. Also many were talking about her defense of Cambage at the last Olympics as a negative but the game last week showed once again that it is pretty hard to stop Cambage.
 

wallman

UCLA Bruin
Joined
Oct 11, 2011
Messages
1,184
Reaction Score
2,376
Tell that to Carol Callan ;)

So out of that whole post, thats all you got? You are the one whining, why don't you call Callan and personally whine to her. Of course not to mention that you avoided the fact that I was not talking about Nneka, where do I mention Nneka. If you want to be snarky, then call Callan and argue your case for Nneka and who she should replace but again is that because you want Stanford represented or are you personally representing Nneka? Have you watched Nneka in practice and at trials? If so please enlighten us to who she is a better player, teammate than and what her role would be on the TEAM.
 

wallman

UCLA Bruin
Joined
Oct 11, 2011
Messages
1,184
Reaction Score
2,376
Agreed, and I think the folks who argue that this currently is a meritocracy are missing that the argument is that it currently is NOT a meritocracy. Could be that all the UConn players belong there, but the issue is deeper. What about all the Lynx players given that their coach is an Asst Coach? Also, there seems to be too much sentimentality -- "letting" people go out after 2016 when their caliber of play NOW is not up to the level of the competition. If the Select team had included Nneka and Candace, don't you think they would have beaten the current Olympic team in that Exhibition game? Those are two very powerful players, and you combine that with young, fast and effective guards such as Sims, Diggins and Loyd and watch out!

So what is the deeper issue? Yes all the Lynx players could be the team, but there would still be some nuts saying they shouldn't be!
 

UcMiami

How it is
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
14,101
Reaction Score
46,584
I don't think it's a stretch to think Parker, Nneka, Sims, January, Diggins, and Loyd are just as good, if not better than some already on the team. I also don't think it should be an issue with anyone to grow the game. Everyone benefits when the game grows. I believe if you simply pick the best, the rest will work itself out.

My point about university success goes back to the excuse that many use when they say UConn players have so much college success that it stands to reason they would be on the team. So why does this same excuse not work for others that have had college success? If it matters for UConn players, it should matter for them.

I've also heard many say, including the committee, that UConn players get the advantage because they know Geno's system and it improves the preparation time, so there again, UConn players are getting an advantage due to college affiliation.

Bottom line: it should either matter for all or matter for none. Equal opportunity.
The problem with ND players:
Achonwa is actually at the Olympics, just playing for Canada (and probably would not be considered for the US team at this time anyway), Diggins was injured this past year and was still recovering through the first half of the WNBA season, and she last played international rules basketball since 2011 and has only played two age specific competitions (2011 and 2008) so she has limited experience and has chosen so far not to play internationally as a pro. Loyd is the same age as Stewart and likely gets her chance soon. McBride is in the pool but has yet to break through and is now injured. None of these players has done enough yet to displace anyone of the current guards/wings - and I cannot think of another player from ND in the pros that is under serious consideration - from 2001 till Diggins arrival, ND was not that good a team - there run is recent and the players above are all still young.

Stanford - Jane Appel got serious consideration but her star has waned a bit. Wiggins as well I believe got some consideration. The O sisters are the ones that stand out currently but they fall into that area of the USA team that is really strong - they are not big and strong enough to play post defensively in international competition and they are not that great in the mid range to the arc. Nneka this year is tearing up the WNBA and has developed her mid-range game, and I suspect that she will be selected in the future, but I am not sure that her sister will get further than the NT pool.

Baylor has Griner on the team and Sims in the pool, and I see Sims as a competing with Loyd for the DT type position on the NT. I don't see another player likely to be added to the pool from the current seniors, juniors, or graduates.

College success is very different from pro success and what is different about Uconn is that in the last 15 years the great players at Uconn have gone on to great pro careers as well - the same has not been true in anything like the numbers from any other of the really good college teams. Some of that specifically has to do with the coaching - and the echo of that coaching is something that USA basketball even when Geno is not the coach looks for in players at all levels. I think Tara and Muffet run their teams in very similar ways, but they have not generally had the iconic recruits that Geno has gotten so the talent even with their tutelage that has gone into the pros for most of the last decade is just not quite good enough. If you look at the players: Sue, DT, Maya, Tina, Stewart - with the exception of Sue and Stewart, they were all #1 in HS, #1 for most of their college careers, and #1 at their positions in the pros. (Stewart has yet to prove it in the pros, and Bird came out of HS lower down, but quickly proved it at the college level and in the pros.) We will see what happens as Sue and DT retire - I do not see a Uconn player replacing DT, but I would not bet against Moriah replacing Sue. Maya and Tina are not slowing down, and Stewart is only just growing into her pro game.
 

HGN

Joined
Aug 30, 2011
Messages
3,160
Reaction Score
6,826
I disagree that all deserve to be there, but I do agree that most do. As for championship accusations, win all you can. It's up to the others to recruit in better talent and keep up.
You may disagree, but the Olympic Selection Committee and I seem to agree.
 
Joined
Sep 6, 2011
Messages
2,335
Reaction Score
5,596
I disagree and yes, I do watch. Everyone doesn't agree that she's the best TODAY. That's an inaccurate statement. Her turnovers are lower, because due to her age and slower speed, she's keeping things very basic. She's still a very smart player and she knows not to take the same risks she did previously in her younger years. She doesn't break the defense down with her penetration any more and her defense just isn't there. This equates to the opponents out scoring them, thus having only 9 wins at this point of the season. With 2 Olympians on their team, if they are as good as advertised here, they'd have more wins.
Seattle has 2 people starting who should be bench players, and would be on any other team. Stewie is the second leading rebounder in the league, and Seattle gets out rebounded by 10 a game. Langhorne, and Clark play almost 52 minutes a game combined, and have less rebounds then Stewie. They along with the bench are the reason Seattle is so bad. Right now Stewie, Sue, and Jewell are the only players who are actually playing well.
 
Last edited:

EricLA

Cronus
Joined
Aug 24, 2011
Messages
14,985
Reaction Score
81,486
Seattle has 2 people starting who should be bench players, and would be on any other team. Stewie is the second leading rebounder in the league, and Seattle gets out rebounded by 10 a game. Langhorne, and Clark play almost 52 minutes a game combined, and have less rebounds then Stewie. They along with the bench are the reason Seattle is so bad. Right now Stewie, Sue, and Jewell are the only players who are actually playing well.
I still disagree. You think Team USA runs better with Whalen at the helm?
 

Orangutan

South Bend Simian
Joined
Apr 17, 2014
Messages
5,868
Reaction Score
26,702
So out of that whole post, thats all you got? You are the one whining, why don't you call Callan and personally whine to her. Of course not to mention that you avoided the fact that I was not talking about Nneka, where do I mention Nneka. If you want to be snarky, then call Callan and argue your case for Nneka and who she should replace but again is that because you want Stanford represented or are you personally representing Nneka? Have you watched Nneka in practice and at trials? If so please enlighten us to who she is a better player, teammate than and what her role would be on the TEAM.

The bit about Callan was just a joke, hence the winking face. I was referencing her quotes where she discussed how the UConn players' familiarity with Geno made it easier for them to acclimate to USAB.

Earlier in the thread I wrote " they more or less got it right". I don't know how that's whining. When they picked the team, they didn't know Nneka was going to explode like this and PF is such a stacked position for the US. Plus, Charles, Stewart, and Delle Donne offer more positional flexibility. So I get why she's not on the team. I don't know why they picked the team so early but that's a different discussion.

I'm just saying that Nneka is an example of a player that could easily be on this team and given her efficiency (she's not jacking up a ton of shots) and her team's success (if she's a bad teammate it sure isn't hurting the Sparks), I find it difficult to believe that selfishness or lack of team play is what's keeping her off the team.

I bristle at this idea (paraphrasing) "If your favorite player didn't make it, maybe she doesn't know how to play team basketball and you can't argue that she does know how because you weren't at the practices".
 
Joined
Jul 19, 2014
Messages
6,312
Reaction Score
10,011
No. The whole point is to send your very best athletes to the Games. It just so happens that right now most of the best women's basketball players attended UConn. I'm sure if anyone who took the time to look it up would find that other schools dominated previous Olympic WBB teams. It is only since the women's game has achieved national attention that this has become an issue- before, nobody gave a damn.
 

KnightBridgeAZ

Grand Canyon Knight
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
5,265
Reaction Score
8,835
What a thread of nonsense. I'm sorry.

While there are points about individual players that could be discussed, is there really anyone that thinks, all things considered, that anyone on the team doesn't deserve to be there?

I would agree that both Catchings and Bird's abilities are waning, but they both seem to maximize what they have left by playing smart. Many of the other players on the team are in mid-career and indeed are questionable for the next Olympic team, especially if the committee does want to look to the future.

I would argue that the politics in play are less about what school you went to than loyalty to the USA (program) and proven abilities to be contributors.
 

UcMiami

How it is
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
14,101
Reaction Score
46,584
The bit about Callan was just a joke, hence the winking face. I was referencing her quotes where she discussed how the UConn players' familiarity with Geno made it easier for them to acclimate to USAB.

Earlier in the thread I wrote " they more or less got it right". I don't know how that's whining. When they picked the team, they didn't know Nneka was going to explode like this and PF is such a stacked position for the US. Plus, Charles, Stewart, and Delle Donne offer more positional flexibility. So I get why she's not on the team. I don't know why they picked the team so early but that's a different discussion.

I'm just saying that Nneka is an example of a player that could easily be on this team and given her efficiency (she's not jacking up a ton of shots) and her team's success (if she's a bad teammate it sure isn't hurting the Sparks), I find it difficult to believe that selfishness or lack of team play is what's keeping her off the team.

I bristle at this idea (paraphrasing) "If your favorite player didn't make it, maybe she doesn't know how to play team basketball and you can't argue that she does know how because you weren't at the practices".
I agree about Nneka's game, and I think her issue up until really this year has been her versatility on offense and defense, which appears to be something she is seriously addressing in her game. That she is competing for a position where her competitors are: Tina who is stronger and can play post against most international competition; Maya and EDD who are more proficient outside shooters, and Tamika who is a demon on defense and is also a better player in space. Tamika's space is opening up after this year and I think Nneka is probably the first choice to replace her.
 

EricLA

Cronus
Joined
Aug 24, 2011
Messages
14,985
Reaction Score
81,486
I'm just saying that Nneka is an example of a player that could easily be on this team and given her efficiency (she's not jacking up a ton of shots) and her team's success (if she's a bad teammate it sure isn't hurting the Sparks), I find it difficult to believe that selfishness or lack of team play is what's keeping her off the team.
I've never read anything about Nneka not being a good teammate. I know I"ve never thought that i've never seen anyone say that either. :)
 

BigBird

Et In Hoc Signo Vinces
Joined
Nov 13, 2013
Messages
3,849
Reaction Score
10,566
Frankly, arguing that any of these players aren't deserving of their spot on the team is mostly folly. This is a really (really, really) good team. It was assembled by people who know their basketball, certainly better than some or all of posters I've seen here. It's not only folly, but it is also rather insulting. This IS our team. That's a done deal.

I was disappointed that former WNBA star-turned-commentator Lisa Leslie chose to go off on the NBA channel about the Parker non-selection. Yes, we'd guess they are friends. So? Several of my friends weren't selected either. It's almost that silly for Leslie to chide USA basketball for not picking Parker, but failing to give a reason other than "I like her game."

Let's face it. The elephant sitting on the folding chair is that at times Parker can be a difficult teammate and a diva. She IS a supreme talent. But on this team, attitude matters.
 

Online statistics

Members online
113
Guests online
1,799
Total visitors
1,912

Forum statistics

Threads
156,871
Messages
4,068,455
Members
9,950
Latest member
Woody69


Top Bottom