Is There Anything to Discussing the Health of Women's College Basketball?

[MD#12Fan]

Without even mentioning this year's UConn team....can we discuss the health of the WCBB in general?
Is it stronger than ever?
State of the HS game? Internationally? Olympic basketball? (Team USA)
Is the WNBA getting better? Quality of play? Players? Popularity with fans? Is it growing financially?

I think it's stagnant. In 1982-1985, Louisiana Tech, ODU, and USC were the teams. Anne Donovan, Cheryl Miller. Then came Pat Head (Summit), Stanford, UNC, a couple of others and a guy named Geno came on the scene.
I'm not seeing any progress. About the same # of good players across the country, same # of good teams, etc. Not even sure the players are better now.
The men's game has spread across the landscape with arguably 60-70 competitive squads. Last year UMBC beat a #1 seed and Loyola-Chicago made the Final 4.
The women's game still has 8 or so good teams. Makes for a boring regular season, conference tournaments, and even early rounds of the NCAA. We've got a game with Louisville and maybe SC to occupy our psyches until spring. Maybe that's why we're at each other's throats all the time.
Football starts today at 3. Where's the college hoops to fill the docket?
I went to the Temple game yesterday. Had the schedule change. Lucky if there were 1000 people there. I moved down to the middle of the court about 12 rows from the court, 1st row of red seats.
It wasn't empty, but where were all the young lady basketball players? Philly is one of the nation's basketball hotbeds.
I want to see competition. January to March of weak league competition is crap!
Got a couple of hours to kill: greatest 30 for 30 in history (even better than Guru of Go) is "Requiem for the Big East". That's what college hoops can look like. Still IMO the most exciting sport there is. (sorry NFL'ers)

 

[HuskyNan]

Depends on the criteria, I think. If you look at attendance, it’s down for most sports, including some pros. I think the folder folks still go but the younger people want something different. My twenty-something sons, for example, would rather travel than sit in a stadium.

But to me, the improvement in so many teams around the country point to positive advancement of yhe sport. There are still bad coaches around but you don’t see them recycled to other schools by ADs that don’t really care about women’s sports. Colleges are paying more attention and putting more money into wcbb, too

The advancement is uneven, though, kind of fits and starts

 

[Jmsdawg]

Without even mentioning this year's UConn team....can we discuss the health of the WCBB in general?
Is it stronger than ever?
State of the HS game? Internationally? Olympic basketball? (Team USA)
Is the WNBA getting better? Quality of play? Players? Popularity with fans? Is it growing financially?

I think it's stagnant. In 1982-1985, Louisiana Tech, ODU, and USC were the teams. Anne Donovan, Cheryl Miller. Then came Pat Head (Summit), Stanford, UNC, a couple of others and a guy named Geno came on the scene.
I'm not seeing any progress. About the same # of good players across the country, same # of good teams, etc. Not even sure the players are better now.
The men's game has spread across the landscape with arguably 60-70 competitive squads. Last year UMBC beat a #1 seed and Loyola-Chicago made the Final 4.
The women's game still has 8 or so good teams. Makes for a boring regular season, conference tournaments, and even early rounds of the NCAA. We've got a game with Louisville and maybe SC to occupy our psyches until spring. Maybe that's why we're at each other's throats all the time.
Football starts today at 3. Where's the college hoops to fill the docket?
I went to the Temple game yesterday. Had the schedule change. Lucky if there were 1000 people there. I moved down to the middle of the court about 12 rows from the court, 1st row of red seats.
It wasn't empty, but where were all the young lady basketball players? Philly is one of the nation's basketball hotbeds.
I want to see competition. January to March of weak league competition is crap!
Got a couple of hours to kill: greatest 30 for 30 in history (even better than Guru of Go) is "Requiem for the Big East". That's what college hoops can look like. Still IMO the most exciting sport there is. (sorry NFL'ers)

Unfortunately, I agree with almost everything you said. Major disagreement is quality of playing, I think it has greatly improved especially for the upper level teams. Lack of fans is apparent, in my opinion that is mostly due to the lack of top level competition among the top level teams. Even competitive games between irrelevant teams just do not attract fans. At least some teams, in particular MSST, SC, UCONN, and Baylor have established a fan base that supports those teams. Seems to be associated with successful coaches. Hope WBB in general can find the answer!

 

[HuskyNan]

Here’s a link to the NCAA report on women’s basketball attendance. Seems to be holding steady.

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/w_basketball_RB/2019/Attendance.pdf

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

A lot of teams just don't have fan bases. Of course, a lot of those schools with average attendance under 1000 obviously don't pack any sport the way the P5's do.

I don't think a lot of "game attending" fans are being attracted, just enough to balance the ones that, well, die off to be blunt. As Nan says, the current generation of teens / 20 somethings are not really interested in attending games (although that isn't the main fan base for women's basketball in any case).

As others have said, quality of play is good in college. And varied enough to please the folks that like the smooth style of UConn, the defensive style of a Rutgers or the high octane offense that is so common these days.

The truth is, there just may not be a lot of ways to "grow" the sport. I like the focus of getting more fans in for the NCAA's, that has been variously discussed.

 

[HuskyNan]

I have seasons tickets for UCF. Yesterday they had the women play their game right after the men’s. The AD implored the fans to stay for the women, talked up the team, offered discounts on concessions and other incentives. This happened-

Men’s game

 

[HuskyNan]

Women’s game, 30 minutes later

UCF is like 15-2 and second in the AAC. Still, it’s a no go at UCF

 

[uconnfan68]

Without even mentioning this year's UConn team....can we discuss the health of the WCBB in general?
Is it stronger than ever?
State of the HS game? Internationally? Olympic basketball? (Team USA)
Is the WNBA getting better? Quality of play? Players? Popularity with fans? Is it growing financially?

I think it's stagnant. In 1982-1985, Louisiana Tech, ODU, and USC were the teams. Anne Donovan, Cheryl Miller. Then came Pat Head (Summit), Stanford, UNC, a couple of others and a guy named Geno came on the scene.
I'm not seeing any progress. About the same # of good players across the country, same # of good teams, etc. Not even sure the players are better now.
The men's game has spread across the landscape with arguably 60-70 competitive squads. Last year UMBC beat a #1 seed and Loyola-Chicago made the Final 4.
The women's game still has 8 or so good teams. Makes for a boring regular season, conference tournaments, and even early rounds of the NCAA. We've got a game with Louisville and maybe SC to occupy our psyches until spring. Maybe that's why we're at each other's throats all the time.
Football starts today at 3. Where's the college hoops to fill the docket?
I went to the Temple game yesterday. Had the schedule change. Lucky if there were 1000 people there. I moved down to the middle of the court about 12 rows from the court, 1st row of red seats.
It wasn't empty, but where were all the young lady basketball players? Philly is one of the nation's basketball hotbeds.
I want to see competition. January to March of weak league competition is crap!
Got a couple of hours to kill: greatest 30 for 30 in history (even better than Guru of Go) is "Requiem for the Big East". That's what college hoops can look like. Still IMO the most exciting sport there is. (sorry NFL'ers)

The “Requiem for the Big East” seems to have missed the fact the UConn was it’s most successful team. The 80s were only part of it.

 

[MD#12Fan]

Women’s game, 30 minutes later

UCF is like 15-2 and second in the AAC. Still, it’s a no go at UCF

View attachment 38510

Creative idea! Makes you realize more creativity is necessary.
Still, I know I’m biased, but basketball is the most fun sport there is. Why aren’t young ladies participating and it then only seems natural to go see the best players live. Cheaper and easier than men.
One thing about your UCF scenario and the Temple game yesterday- IMO the venue has to be a match. Liacorous was too big for yesterday. (Rescheduling contributed). Most bigger schools have older, smaller venues which would be more appropriate for the women’s games. Temple has McGonigle Hall, which is where they played last year. One year I went to the men’s D3 Final Four in Salem VA. Perfect venue- about 5000 seats perfect for the event.

 

[MD#12Fan]

The “Requiem for the Big East” seems to have missed the fact the UConn was it’s most successful team. The 80s were only part of it.

Interesting critique! I guess Calhoun didn’t have the charisma of the others- Big John, Boeheim, and Louie.
Don’t forget with a little luck (good luck I mean), Georgetown wins 3 titles and Big John’s name is in there with the greats of the game. Nova plays a perfect game and UNC with Michael and Brown’s pass to James Worthy.

 

[MD#12Fan]

The Dream Team spearheaded huge growth in hoops internationally for the men but I don’t see the growth in the women’s game. I’ve always enjoyed watching the Olympic women’s competition. Doesn’t make sense to me. I could see it now-Geno with an international big that can shoot, pass, rebound, and set screens.

 

['nuff sed]

Women’s game, 30 minutes later

UCF is like 15-2 and second in the AAC. Still, it’s a no go at UCF

View attachment 38510

UCF screwed up ..... they should have scheduled the women’s game first ....get the men’s crowd walking into the women’s game with a double header ticket priced correctly.

There are other issues though with UCF though that makes marketing an uphill battle. They are in a highly competitive market for entertainment dollars, and of course it’s SEC territory and they’re saddled with an AAC schedule too.

The best thing UConn did was the CPTV contract....don’t know why more teams don’t copy that. Big Bang for the buck.

The demographics for the audience I would think would be pretty consistent across the board.....but I don’t know.

 

[MD#12Fan]

UCF screwed up ..... they should have scheduled the women’s game first ....get the men’s crowd walking into the women’s game with a double header ticket priced correctly.

There are other issues though with UCF though that makes marketing an uphill battle. They are in a highly competitive market for entertainment dollars, and of course it’s SEC territory and they’re saddled with an AAC schedule too.

The best thing UConn did was the CPTV contract....don’t know why more teams don’t copy that. Big Bang for the buck.

The demographics for the audience I would think would be pretty consistent across the board.....but I don’t know.

Like when my MS boys team played after the girls.
The Temple tickets are priced at $10. Maybe not a money issue. BTW Navy Mens tickets are $10. Great value. Gotta get young people out.

 

[HoopsHoppy]

Personal observation but may capture a changing and evolving viewing thought - and point to a longer term decline. At present, there is a big difference and distinction between men’s and women’s basketball. And there is a dying off men’s attraction to the game as they played it within the quality women’s programs. Younger males, perhaps as a generalization, feel the athleticism is needed in the sport - and don’t appreciate a game built more on great ball movement and team play than playing above the rims.

It may be totally a personal perception of someone who learned in the ‘30’s, played through the 40’s and then watched and finally found the expression of excellence seen in what Geno started and built at UConn.

 

[HuskyNan]

UCF screwed up ..... they should have scheduled the women’s game first ....get the men’s crowd walking into the women’s game with a double header ticket priced correctly.

There are other issues though with UCF though that makes marketing an uphill battle. They are in a highly competitive market for entertainment dollars, and of course it’s SEC territory and they’re saddled with an AAC schedule too.

The best thing UConn did was the CPTV contract....don’t know why more teams don’t copy that. Big Bang for the buck.

The demographics for the audience I would think would be pretty consistent across the board.....but I don’t know.

The local paper showed That more people in Florida got UCF license plates than Florida or Florida State and the % was even higher in Orange County. What this is, is football country. The state is crazy for UCF, the states best team.

Florida is interesting. I’ve met a LOT of people from Ohio and New Jersey here. In the neighborhood where I live, there’s a UMass fan (yes, UMass has fans!) and I work with a woman from New Hampshire. My hairdresser is from New York City. Most people I’ve met are from somewhere else.

 

['nuff sed]

The local paper showed That more people in Florida got UCF license plates than Florida or Florida State and the % was even higher in Orange County. What this is, is football country. The state is crazy for UCF, the states best team.

Florida is interesting. I’ve met a LOT of people from Ohio and New Jersey here. In the neighborhood where I live, there’s a UMass fan (yes, UMass has fans!) and I work with a woman from New Hampshire. My hairdresser is from New York City. Most people I’ve met are from somewhere else.

Yeah, That’s what I thought.

In Connecticut we don’t have football, oops, I mean we only have bills from football —— but to keep it on BB —- where are the rivalries in the AAC — the lack hurts the gate.

Football killed the Big East and the AAC won’t generate non football gates for women without rivalries, there’s nothing to market.

UCF can call Florida a rivalry even if they never play against each other.

UConn and Lady Vols are actual brands, beyond that there’s not much, not even ND women. Maybe Kim, but it’s not national.

The game NEEDS Dawn, Vic, Rueck etc to build brands, identities, not just teams. The game NEEDS Tennessee back in the game.

 

[cockhrnleghrn]

Women’s game, 30 minutes later

UCF is like 15-2 and second in the AAC. Still, it’s a no go at UCF

View attachment 38510

That's awful and it isn't a very large arena, either.

I think the biggest issue is depth of talent; if there were more good WBB players, the sport would be more popular. I honestly think sexism is a lot of the attendance problem, too.

 

[MD#12Fan]

Yeah, That’s what I thought.

In Connecticut we don’t have football, oops, I mean we only have bills from football —— but to keep it on BB —- where are the rivalries in the AAC — the lack hurts the gate.

Football killed the Big East and the AAC won’t generate non football gates for women without rivalries, there’s nothing to market.

UCF can call Florida a rivalry even if they never play against each other.

UConn and Lady Vols are actual brands, beyond that there’s not much, not even ND women. Maybe Kim, but it’s not national.

The game NEEDS Dawn, Vic, Rueck etc to build brands, identities, not just teams. The game NEEDS Tennessee back in the game.

Same problem Gonzaga men have in the WCC. A yawn-fest. A couple of decent games every year with St Mary’s.
Too bad they can’t be in different conferences for different sports. Geographically the old Big East was the best and the old ACC down here. Syracuse in the ACC, BC? Xavier, Creighton in the Big East?
Maybe it’ll correct itself when they realize it actually hurts college sports.

 

[HuskyNan]

Same problem Gonzaga men have in the WCC. A yawn-fest. A couple of decent games every year with St Mary’s.
Too bad they can’t be in different conferences for different sports. Geographically the old Big East was the best and the old ACC down here. Syracuse in the ACC, BC? Xavier, Creighton in the Big East?
Maybe it’ll correct itself when they realize it actually hurts college sports.

“They” are the TV networks and they don’t care who gets hurt as long as they make money. Sad but true

 

[brownale]

That's awful and it isn't a very large arena, either.

I think the biggest issue is depth of talent; if there were more good WBB players, the sport would be more popular. I honestly think sexism is a lot of the attendance problem, too.

Sexism???
There are 163.2 million females in the USA. I don't think anyone is preventing them from going to a basketball game.

 

[HuskyNan]

Sexism???
There are 163.2 million females in the USA. I don't think anyone is preventing them from going to a basketball game.

I think he was referring to the men’s team fans leaving when the women’s game started

 

[bballnut90]

Without even mentioning this year's UConn team....can we discuss the health of the WCBB in general?
Is it stronger than ever?
State of the HS game? Internationally? Olympic basketball? (Team USA)
Is the WNBA getting better? Quality of play? Players? Popularity with fans? Is it growing financially?

I think it's stagnant. In 1982-1985, Louisiana Tech, ODU, and USC were the teams. Anne Donovan, Cheryl Miller. Then came Pat Head (Summit), Stanford, UNC, a couple of others and a guy named Geno came on the scene.
I'm not seeing any progress. About the same # of good players across the country, same # of good teams, etc. Not even sure the players are better now.
The men's game has spread across the landscape with arguably 60-70 competitive squads. Last year UMBC beat a #1 seed and Loyola-Chicago made the Final 4.
The women's game still has 8 or so good teams. Makes for a boring regular season, conference tournaments, and even early rounds of the NCAA. We've got a game with Louisville and maybe SC to occupy our psyches until spring. Maybe that's why we're at each other's throats all the time.
Football starts today at 3. Where's the college hoops to fill the docket?
I went to the Temple game yesterday. Had the schedule change. Lucky if there were 1000 people there. I moved down to the middle of the court about 12 rows from the court, 1st row of red seats.
It wasn't empty, but where were all the young lady basketball players? Philly is one of the nation's basketball hotbeds.
I want to see competition. January to March of weak league competition is crap!
Got a couple of hours to kill: greatest 30 for 30 in history (even better than Guru of Go) is "Requiem for the Big East". That's what college hoops can look like. Still IMO the most exciting sport there is. (sorry NFL'ers)

Quality of play: is improving at a very solid rate. Try watching a WNBA game from the 00s vs now and there's no comparison. Everyone has a good perimeter shot now in the pros and you see much better A/TO ratios than you used to. Athletes are better and develop into very good players where that wasn't always the case in the past.

I think the number of good players is up too. You look at the SEC for example, and there's no question it's a down year, but individually there are some very good and dynamic players in McCowan, Howard, Cooper, Morris, R. Howard, Cunningham and Westbrook (among others). Lots of very skilled players around the country.

As far as spreading out talent and parity, it is still far behind men's basketball. The men's game has a wider spread of talent because the best players always leave for the draft which balances the playing field. Teams like Wisconsin for example keep players 3-4 years and players steadily improve and are experienced even if they are not as talented as the 1 and dones. They have a big advantage in experience and understanding the ebbs and flows of college basketball over the new guys, but the new guys obviously have a raw talent and athletic advantage so it typically evens out.

On the women's side, the best players consistently go to the best schools and stay there all 4 years. That's the biggest reason why we've seen teams like UCONN, Notre Dame, Stanford, Baylor, etc. stay around the top of polls because they almost always have the best players and usually they're usually somewhat experienced too. I don't see parity changing unless top players stop choosing powerhouse programs.

Coaching health is improving, big time. There are a lot of really strong coaches in women's basketball right now who have made their mark in the last decade including Muffet, Rueck, Schaefer, Staley, Mulkey, etc. I think aside from maybe Pat/Geno/Barmore/Tara, most of these "newly successful" coaches are stronger than the other previous "greats" likes Jody Conradt, Sue Gunter, Marsha Sharp, Kay Yow, Andy Landers, Jim Foster, etc. By and large the newer coaches benefit from better players, but they also run more complex offenses and their teams are just more enjoyable to watch. I also don't think there's any question that Geno, Muffet, and Tara are all much better coaches than they were 15 years ago.

The Olympic team is still so far ahead of anyone else in the world, so the health there is good other than that tournaments are pretty dull to most fans since the USA is so dominant. Traditionally strong countries like Australia, Russia and Brazil lack star power compared to previous decades.

Health of women's college basketball-attendance isn't great but coverage of games is much improved. You can see almost every game for any P5 program now via streaming or conference affiliated TV channels. I think it balances out. There also seems to be more coverage on major networks compared to in the past. Health overall is about the same IMO.

Health of the WNBA is poor IMO. Attendance is inflated due to freebies handed out, stands are consistently empty and the players overall seem displeased with pay and conditions. There seems to be a new president every couple of years, no new franchises in years and a few teams seem to be on the verge of folding (ex. the Liberty). The quality of play is by far the best it has ever been, but the league needs a drastic switch to make it another 10-15 years IMO.


Also, a lot of the complaints made above are very UCONN specific since UCONN plays in an awful conference. The competition is dreadful and it isn't exciting to watch a home team get slaughtered by the Huskies year in year out. When UCONN plays on the road against a team that has a chance of beating them, fans come out. For non-UCONN games, head over to the SEC and you'll see close game and more fans in seats. Head over to the Pac-12 and the quality of play is a lot higher. Same with the ACC.

Overall the health is strong in some areas, weak in others. More rivalries, upsets, and great moments in the Final Four like we had last year will help grow the sport.

 

[the Q]

The local paper showed That more people in Florida got UCF license plates than Florida or Florida State and the % was even higher in Orange County. What this is, is football country. The state is crazy for UCF, the states best team.

Florida is interesting. I’ve met a LOT of people from Ohio and New Jersey here. In the neighborhood where I live, there’s a UMass fan (yes, UMass has fans!) and I work with a woman from New Hampshire. My hairdresser is from New York City. Most people I’ve met are from somewhere else.

Yes. It’s not like people go to the two professional baseball teams either. Even when the rays went to the World Series it didn’t end up with a huge statistical jump for them financially in the coming years.

 

['nuff sed]

Sexism???
There are 163.2 million females in the USA. I don't think anyone is preventing them from going to a basketball game.

I coached girls soccer for about a dozen years.

I saw more mothers stopping their daughters from playing in HS, never a dad. Some very very good talent too. And they were very blunt in their reasons. Track and tennis -okay. Team sports no.

Sexism is insidious, institutionalized, but there are other stigma’s attached. Totally unnecessary, but they exist. And an in your face response to those attitudes backfires badly.

Lisa Leslie or Rebecca could do commercial work ....others would have a problem.

That’s why branding is important, and image is important.

The moms seem to know that, the dads are oblivious.

Women players need moms, and women’s sports just need dads to buy tickets.

More women watch NASCAR and baseball then will ever watch WBB.
Its not that they’re not sports fans...

 

[Undercovervol]

Last year’s final four was the best I’ve ever seen. Players are more athletic than ever and there are more players that can dunk now than ever before. Scoring is better and defense has adapted to the new rules.
The WNBA is getting better even with poor management and advertising.
I think women’s basketball is trending upwards slowly but surely!