OT: Is LeBron Still the Best?

[intlzncster]

Then why is Hakeem even in your top 10? Lol there was this guy named Kareem too

Shaq was dominant, no doubt. But he was obviously extremely limited in his game. Your game matters. He’s top 15 but not top 10 and certainly not too 5

Yeah, Kareem was supposed to be in there. I said it was off the top of my head. He's Top 3 behing MJ, LeBron.

I have Hakeem in there, because he was better than Kobe. He was one of the most complete players in history.

If you're not gonna call Shaq Top 10, then we're never going to agree. The only real negative is free throws. It's not a skills competition. It's the best player. Physical dominance is part of it.

 

[tzznandrew]

I’d have to squint real hard to have Hakeem in the top 10. I think you could argue Bird ahead of Kobe on that list you made (which I actually totally agree with) but I wouldn’t

Hakeem won a title without a second all star. I mean, that never happens. In fact, there's never been a big that's done that.

He was a significantly better defensive player than Kobe. His advanced metrics are pretty much equal to, or better than, Kobe's. All of them, really.

 

[tzznandrew]

Yeah, Kareem was supposed to be in there. I said it was off the top of my head. He's Top 3 behing MJ, LeBron.

I have Hakeem in there, because he was better than Kobe. He was one of the most complete players in history.

If you're not gonna call Shaq Top 10, then we're never going to agree. The only real negative is free throws. It's not a skills competition. It's the best player. Physical dominance is part of it.

You give me peak Shaq and you take peak Kobe, and then we draft above average players. I slaughter your team ever time.

 

[Rocktheworld]

Yeah, Kareem was supposed to be in there. I said it was off the top of my head. He's Top 3 behing MJ, LeBron.

I have Hakeem in there, because he was better than Kobe. He was one of the most complete players in history.

If you're not gonna call Shaq Top 10, then we're never going to agree. The only real negative is free throws. It's not a skills competition. It's the best player. Physical dominance is part of it.

No it’s not a skills competition but what could Shaq do outside the 10% of half-court space he dominated? How many positions could he defend?

 

[superjohn]

I just think there's better guys ahead. I've a really hard time putting him ahead of off the top of my head:

1. Jordan
2. Wilt
3. Russell
4. Shaq
5. LeBron
6. Duncan
7. Olajuwon
8. Oscar
9. Bird
10. Magic

There might be a few others. And I'm someone that puts a lot of weight on Championships.

I actually like Kobe, for some of the reasons others didn't. I loved that attitude, the sneer, the killer instinct. I loved that he wanted to rip your guts out Moral Kombat style. I love the fact he gave himself his own nickname which also happens to be one of the best I ever heard. And it's right in line with his personality on the court.

Is that list in order? Why so low for Magic? Magic is the second best player I've ever seen.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

See my point above. If we're measuring peak, I'd put him probably behind the guys that @i

Durant's a better Kobe without the longevity. His peak defense is the same or better, his peak offense is significantly more efficient. If he plays 5 more years at roughly this level I'd put him ahead of Kobe easy, particularly if he wins a title this year and passes Kobe in Finals MVPs.

Durant could definitely end up above Kobe all time, i’d say he needs at least 1 chip on another team, but to say his peak defense is better than Kobe’s is a huge stretch. Kobe guarded the best perimeter player in his prime defensive years to the highest degree at that time. He was a legit stopper.

 

[intlzncster]

Is that list in order? Why so low for Magic? Magic is the second best player I've ever seen.

No, it's not in order. I was just naming guys who were in the top 10 who I thought were better than Kobe. And I forgot somebody!

 

[superjohn]

You give me peak Shaq and you take peak Kobe, and then we draft above average players. I slaughter your team ever time.

I don't get all the king of LA talk for Kobe, those title teams Shaq was the alpha, the most dominant force the game has seen since Wilt. It's a shame Shaq wasn't always that dialed in, he could have been in the running for best ever if he was obsessed with the game. And to be honest Kobe couldn't hold Magic's jock as a basketball player.

 

[intlzncster]

It may look “easier to score” today with fouls but you know that that doesn’t apply to LeBron. He’s been hacked his whole career but because he’s so big and strong, doesn’t get the calls he should

Then apply that rule to Shaq. I'd wager nobody in history has been fouled as much as that guy with no call. He's what you described x10.

Childhood anecdotal nostalgia is pretty much the worst part of these debates.

I mean, it's kinda important to have watched the guys you evaluating. Also helps in avoiding recency bias.

 

[superjohn]

Hakeem won a title without a second all star. I mean, that never happens. In fact, there's never been a big that's done that.

He was a significantly better defensive player than Kobe. His advanced metrics are pretty much equal to, or better than, Kobe's. All of them, really.

Dirk too.

 

[Rocktheworld]

I don't get all the king of LA talk for Kobe, those title teams Shaq was the alpha, the most dominant force the game has seen since Wilt.

Kobe was a lifer for 20 years who, after Shaq was pushed out by Kobe lol, went on to win two more championships. Beat Boston for one of them, too

 

[Rocktheworld]

post

Multi-quoting sucks on this site lol

I made that point in that mini MJ-LeBron tangent. Shaq wasn’t part of that argument at all

So I guess you have no prerogative to evaluate the greatness of Ted Williams

 

[tzznandrew]

I don't get all the king of LA talk for Kobe, those title teams Shaq was the alpha, the most dominant force the game has seen since Wilt. It's a shame Shaq wasn't always that dialed in, he could have been in the running for best ever if he was obsessed with the game. And to be honest Kobe couldn't hold Magic's jock as a basketball player.

People like and still like Kobe because he loves basketball. There's something endearing about that. Everyone wants their star players to be as dedicated and competitive as Kobe.

 

[intlzncster]

No it’s not a skills competition but what could Shaq do outside the 10% of half-court space he dominated? How many positions could he defend?

Why does that matter? You could say the same thing about Russell or most bigs?
How good would LeBron be if he was in Chris Paul's body? Are you gonna account for his advantage that way?

I've not problem putting Oscar Robertson in my top 10, and I've only seen tape. But he couldn't guard the 4 or the 5 that's for sure.

 

[tzznandrew]

You could say the same thing about Russell or most bigs?

Russell is the wrong example. He was a 6'9" athletic freak who could a number of positions if need be.

But he's the exception, hardly the rule.

 

[superjohn]

Kobe was a lifer for 20 years who, after Shaq was pushed out by Kobe lol, went on to win two more championships. Beat Boston for one of them, too

I get the lifer thing but Shaq was the dominant force for those 3 LA championships they were together. Kobe was awesome and an all-time scorer but nobody has him over Magic and Kareem as a player.

 

[superjohn]

Why does that matter? You could say the same thing about Russell or most bigs?
How good would LeBron be if he was in Chris Paul's body? Are you gonna account for his advantage that way?

I've not problem putting Oscar Robertson in my top 10, and I've only seen tape. But he couldn't guard the 4 or the 5 that's for sure.

Yeah that seems like a really weird argument, like the argument that all this guy does is dunk. Good, I want a player who dunks every single trip, it's by far the easiest and most effective shot in the sport.

 

[Rocktheworld]

I get the lifer thing but Shaq was the dominant force for those 3 LA championships they were together. Kobe was awesome and an all-time scorer but nobody has him over Magic and Kareem as a player.

You’re talking like Lakers fans are rational

 

[intlzncster]

Multi-quoting sucks on this site lol
I made that point in that mini MJ-LeBron tangent. Shaq wasn’t part of that argument at all

I've no idea how I did that. Hopefully it made some sense.

So I guess you have no prerogative to evaluate the greatness of Ted Williams

I'm not saying it's everything, but I wouldn't dismiss what people are saying about watching MJ live. People who haven't sneer about the MJ 'Myth'. But it is/was a 'myth' because he was that good. If you watched Pele, or prime Tiger, you'd say the same thing. You can see it with your eyes.

The most amazing part of MJ's game was the mental aspect. And that can't be measured. It can't be put on a stat sheet. Which is why people today scoff. It's also the thing that separates players at the highest level, where everyone is preternaturally skilled.

MJ's without a doubt, in my mind, the most mentally dominant team sport athlete I've ever personally witnessed. But you can't measure it. I watch LeBron, and I don't see that same thing. (and yes, I'm talking about the probably 2nd best player to ever live so that's not scorn).

Vis a vis Ted Williams: Look, there's always problems when you are trying to evaluate between eras. All sports. I get that. But I do think baseball is unique with regards to statistics and player evaluation. In baseball, you are your stats. It's almost like 9 guys playing an individual game, but together. You can evaluate standalone easier that way (against each other in their era). The stats 'fit' if you will.

 

[Rocktheworld]

Yeah that seems like a really weird argument, like the argument that all this guy does is dunk. Good, I want a player who dunks every single trip, it's by far the easiest and most effective shot in the sport.

I guess when you’re down to the top 10, for me, it matters to discuss completeness of your game; your ability to flourish in multiple aspects of the game; the different ways by which you can be a weapon for your team and affect the outcomes of games.

Maybe it’s not a great argument. Like I said, unquestionably top 15

 

[intlzncster]

You give me peak Shaq and you take peak Kobe, and then we draft above average players. I slaughter your team ever time.

But I want peak Shaq...

 

[intlzncster]

Russell is the wrong example. He was a 6'9" athletic freak who could a number of positions if need be.

But he's the exception, hardly the rule.

I just picked one of the few centers on the list. Shoulda gone with Duncan. I think he'd struggle to D PGs with consistency.

 

[intlzncster]

I guess when you’re down to the top 10, for me, it matters to discuss completeness of your game; your ability to flourish in multiple aspects of the game; the different ways by which you can be a weapon for your team and affect the outcomes of games.

Maybe it’s not a great argument. Like I said, unquestionably top 15

Then you should love Hakeem Olajuwon!

 

[tzznandrew]

But I want peak Shaq...

Then you should have come up with the hypothetical.

 

[JimHurley]

Easily the best. He has nothing to work with and his morale is down.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

I know I'm asking for it, but the this threads comments about Kobe are really surprising. Why the hate? Seriously. I hear these comments and I seriously want to know what was it about Kobe's game and career that invalidates top 10 status.

Kobe was a great two-way player, dominant in many ways like Jordan, and unlike many star NBA two guards, he cared about the defensive side of the ball. Lebron is better, but that does not negate Kobe's greatness.

Kobe was far too inefficient to be top 10. His greatest attribute was scoring, but he shot less than 45%. MJ, LbJ, Bird, Dr. J, hell Durant all shot close to 50%. That is even worse when you consider he drew single coverage during the years he played behind Shaq. The mark of great players is making those around you better. No one ever accused Kobe of that. He was a top 5 talent, but maybe the most selfish ever.