OT: Is LeBron Still the Best?

[tzznandrew]

I know I'm asking for it, but the this threads comments about Kobe are really surprising. Why the hate? Seriously. I hear these comments and I seriously want to know what was it about Kobe's game and career that invalidates top 10 status.

Kobe was a great two-way player, dominant in many ways like Jordan, and unlike many star NBA two guards, he cared about the defensive side of the ball. Lebron is better, but that does not negate Kobe's greatness.

When compared to other greats, Kobe was an inefficient gunner whose defense was very good in 2000-2005ish and then was pretty bad afterwards, but he racked up All Defensive Team placements due to people loving him. His best defensive year, through defensive WAR, was 4.5. That would equal LeBron's 8th best year and be Jordan's 9th. Most of Kobe's defensive box +/- were actually in the negative, and his highest year (where it was +1.7) would be LeBron's 11th and equal Jordan's 4th (though Jordan's only negative year was the year he broke his leg; LeBron, his rookie year).

Kobe is an all-time great player. He's really good. But when we're talking greatest all time, he doesn't reach what these other guys did.

 

[intlzncster]

I know I'm asking for it, but the this threads comments about Kobe are really surprising. Why the hate? Seriously. I hear these comments and I seriously want to know what was it about Kobe's game and career that invalidates top 10 status.

Kobe was a great two-way player, dominant in many ways like Jordan, and unlike many star NBA two guards, he cared about the defensive side of the ball. Lebron is better, but that does not negate Kobe's greatness.

I just think there's better guys ahead. I've a really hard time putting him ahead of off the top of my head:

1. Jordan
2. Wilt
3. Russell
4. Shaq
5. LeBron
6. Duncan
7. Olajuwon
8. Oscar
9. Bird
10. Magic

There might be a few others. And I'm someone that puts a lot of weight on Championships.

I actually like Kobe, for some of the reasons others didn't. I loved that attitude, the sneer, the killer instinct. I loved that he wanted to rip your guts out Moral Kombat style. I love the fact he gave himself his own nickname which also happens to be one of the best I ever heard. And it's right in line with his personality on the court.

 

[Rocktheworld]

When compared to other greats, Kobe was an inefficient gunner whose defense was very good in 2000-2005ish and then was pretty bad afterwards, but he racked up All Defensive Team placements due to people loving him. His best defensive year, through defensive WAR, was 4.5. That would equal LeBron's 8th best year and be Jordan's 9th. Most of Kobe's defensive box +/- were actually in the negative, and his highest year (where it was +1.7) would be LeBron's 11th and equal Jordan's 4th (though Jordan's only negative year was the year he broke his leg; LeBron, his rookie year).

Kobe is an all-time great player. He's really good. But when we're talking greatest all time, he doesn't reach what these other guys did.

If you’re implying you think he isn’t top 10, who do you put in front of him?

I get that he didn’t do anything without Shaq or Pau or Phil but the championships, records, everything is way way way up there. Having done it in LA means more, too. Kobe was an absolute icon.

 

[tzznandrew]

He’s definitely top 10, however closer to the fringe and KD has a shot if he goes 4 straight in GS then goes to a Clippers or a Knicks and wins a ‘ship. I think right behind Kobe right now you have Bird, Jerry West, Shaq, Big O, and Hakeem in some order. Some of those are some serious names left for KD to pass, albeit he isn’t super far off

If we're talking career, I'd put:

Jordan
LeBron
Kareem
Wilt
Russell
Duncan
Magic

above Kobe without much thought. I'd probably put Hakeem above him as well (crazy underrated).

If we're thinking peak performance for a decade, keep those guys and add Bird to the list and Shaq. Kobe was never the best player in the league. All those guys were indisputably better at their peak. I'd probably add Oscar as well. I'd put him in a 10 year peak behind them and in serious discussion with Baylor, West, and some other greats.

 

[Rocktheworld]

I just think there's better guys ahead. I've a really hard time putting him ahead of off the top of my head:

1. Jordan
2. Wilt
3. Russell
4. Shaq
5. LeBron
6. Duncan
7. Olajuwon
8. Oscar
9. Bird
10. Magic

There might be a few others. And I'm someone that puts a lot of weight on Championships.

Then why is Hakeem even in your top 10? Lol there was this guy named Kareem too

Shaq was dominant, no doubt. But he was obviously extremely limited in his game. Your game matters. He’s top 15 but not top 10 and certainly not too 5

 

[intlzncster]

Has taken 1200+ fewer shots. And LeBron isn’t even a scorer.

It is a hell of a lot easier to score in today's game than in MJs time.

You didn't get to watch MJ much in his prime. It was like watching Tiger in his prime. Just utter, utter dominance, where you knew the opponent was beat before he even stepped on the floor.

Thanks for expressing your great interest in LeBron and the Lakers

I'm definitely interested in the Lakers...great theater for me!

 

[Rocktheworld]

If we're talking career, I'd put:

Jordan
LeBron
Kareem
Wilt
Russell
Duncan
Magic

above Kobe without much thought. I'd probably put Hakeem above him as well (crazy underrated).

If we're thinking peak performance for a decade, keep those guys and add Bird to the list and Shaq. Kobe was never the best player in the league. All those guys were indisputably better at their peak. I'd probably add Oscar as well. I'd put him in a 10 year peak behind them and in serious discussion with Baylor, West, and some other greats.

I’d have to squint real hard to have Hakeem in the top 10. I think you could argue Bird ahead of Kobe on that list you made (which I actually totally agree with) but I wouldn’t

 

[tzznandrew]

If you’re implying you think he isn’t top 10, who do you put in front of him?

I get that he didn’t do anything without Shaq or Pau or Phil but the championships, records, everything is way way way up there. Having done it in LA means more, too. Kobe was an absolute icon.

See my point above. If we're measuring peak, I'd put him probably behind the guys that @i

Some of those are some serious names left for KD to pass, albeit he isn’t super far off

Durant's a better Kobe without the longevity. His peak defense is the same or better, his peak offense is significantly more efficient. If he plays 5 more years at roughly this level I'd put him ahead of Kobe easy, particularly if he wins a title this year and passes Kobe in Finals MVPs.

 

[Rocktheworld]

It is a hell of a lot easier to score in today's game than in MJs time.

They’ve applied today’s statistical analyses to prior eras and really, from an offensive standpoint, only one or two GS teams have been up there with some of the Bulls and Showtime teams.

It may look “easier to score” today with fouls but you know that that doesn’t apply to LeBron. He’s been hacked his whole career but because he’s so big and strong, doesn’t get the calls he should

You didn't get to watch MJ much in his prime. It was like watching Tiger in his prime. Just utter, utter dominance, where you knew the opponent was beat before he even stepped on the floor.

Childhood anecdotal nostalgia is pretty much the worst part of these debates.

 

[superjohn]

I know I'm asking for it, but the this threads comments about Kobe are really surprising. Why the hate? Seriously. I hear these comments and I seriously want to know what was it about Kobe's game and career that invalidates top 10 status.

Kobe was a great two-way player, dominant in many ways like Jordan, and unlike many star NBA two guards, he cared about the defensive side of the ball. Lebron is better, but that does not negate Kobe's greatness.

Because there are a lot of amazing players who have played this game. He could sneak in the top 10 all-time for some but he's just not in the group with MJ, Magic, Kareem, Wilt, Lebron, Bird, Russell, and Oscar. I also have Hakeem, Shaq, and Duncan ahead of him but someone could argue he's ahead of them. Dr. J is also right there but seems to be forgotten all the time and Durant will probably move ahead of him on most peoples lists.

 

[intlzncster]

Then why is Hakeem even in your top 10? Lol there was this guy named Kareem too

Shaq was dominant, no doubt. But he was obviously extremely limited in his game. Your game matters. He’s top 15 but not top 10 and certainly not too 5

Yeah, Kareem was supposed to be in there. I said it was off the top of my head. He's Top 3 behing MJ, LeBron.

I have Hakeem in there, because he was better than Kobe. He was one of the most complete players in history.

If you're not gonna call Shaq Top 10, then we're never going to agree. The only real negative is free throws. It's not a skills competition. It's the best player. Physical dominance is part of it.

 

[tzznandrew]

I’d have to squint real hard to have Hakeem in the top 10. I think you could argue Bird ahead of Kobe on that list you made (which I actually totally agree with) but I wouldn’t

Hakeem won a title without a second all star. I mean, that never happens. In fact, there's never been a big that's done that.

He was a significantly better defensive player than Kobe. His advanced metrics are pretty much equal to, or better than, Kobe's. All of them, really.

 

[tzznandrew]

Yeah, Kareem was supposed to be in there. I said it was off the top of my head. He's Top 3 behing MJ, LeBron.

I have Hakeem in there, because he was better than Kobe. He was one of the most complete players in history.

If you're not gonna call Shaq Top 10, then we're never going to agree. The only real negative is free throws. It's not a skills competition. It's the best player. Physical dominance is part of it.

You give me peak Shaq and you take peak Kobe, and then we draft above average players. I slaughter your team ever time.

 

[Rocktheworld]

Yeah, Kareem was supposed to be in there. I said it was off the top of my head. He's Top 3 behing MJ, LeBron.

I have Hakeem in there, because he was better than Kobe. He was one of the most complete players in history.

If you're not gonna call Shaq Top 10, then we're never going to agree. The only real negative is free throws. It's not a skills competition. It's the best player. Physical dominance is part of it.

No it’s not a skills competition but what could Shaq do outside the 10% of half-court space he dominated? How many positions could he defend?

 

[superjohn]

I just think there's better guys ahead. I've a really hard time putting him ahead of off the top of my head:

1. Jordan
2. Wilt
3. Russell
4. Shaq
5. LeBron
6. Duncan
7. Olajuwon
8. Oscar
9. Bird
10. Magic

There might be a few others. And I'm someone that puts a lot of weight on Championships.

I actually like Kobe, for some of the reasons others didn't. I loved that attitude, the sneer, the killer instinct. I loved that he wanted to rip your guts out Moral Kombat style. I love the fact he gave himself his own nickname which also happens to be one of the best I ever heard. And it's right in line with his personality on the court.

Is that list in order? Why so low for Magic? Magic is the second best player I've ever seen.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

See my point above. If we're measuring peak, I'd put him probably behind the guys that @i

Durant's a better Kobe without the longevity. His peak defense is the same or better, his peak offense is significantly more efficient. If he plays 5 more years at roughly this level I'd put him ahead of Kobe easy, particularly if he wins a title this year and passes Kobe in Finals MVPs.

Durant could definitely end up above Kobe all time, i’d say he needs at least 1 chip on another team, but to say his peak defense is better than Kobe’s is a huge stretch. Kobe guarded the best perimeter player in his prime defensive years to the highest degree at that time. He was a legit stopper.

 

[intlzncster]

Is that list in order? Why so low for Magic? Magic is the second best player I've ever seen.

No, it's not in order. I was just naming guys who were in the top 10 who I thought were better than Kobe. And I forgot somebody!

 

[superjohn]

You give me peak Shaq and you take peak Kobe, and then we draft above average players. I slaughter your team ever time.

I don't get all the king of LA talk for Kobe, those title teams Shaq was the alpha, the most dominant force the game has seen since Wilt. It's a shame Shaq wasn't always that dialed in, he could have been in the running for best ever if he was obsessed with the game. And to be honest Kobe couldn't hold Magic's jock as a basketball player.

 

[intlzncster]

It may look “easier to score” today with fouls but you know that that doesn’t apply to LeBron. He’s been hacked his whole career but because he’s so big and strong, doesn’t get the calls he should

Then apply that rule to Shaq. I'd wager nobody in history has been fouled as much as that guy with no call. He's what you described x10.

Childhood anecdotal nostalgia is pretty much the worst part of these debates.

I mean, it's kinda important to have watched the guys you evaluating. Also helps in avoiding recency bias.

 

[superjohn]

Hakeem won a title without a second all star. I mean, that never happens. In fact, there's never been a big that's done that.

He was a significantly better defensive player than Kobe. His advanced metrics are pretty much equal to, or better than, Kobe's. All of them, really.

Dirk too.

 

[Rocktheworld]

I don't get all the king of LA talk for Kobe, those title teams Shaq was the alpha, the most dominant force the game has seen since Wilt.

Kobe was a lifer for 20 years who, after Shaq was pushed out by Kobe lol, went on to win two more championships. Beat Boston for one of them, too

 

[Rocktheworld]

post

Multi-quoting sucks on this site lol

I made that point in that mini MJ-LeBron tangent. Shaq wasn’t part of that argument at all

So I guess you have no prerogative to evaluate the greatness of Ted Williams

 

[tzznandrew]

I don't get all the king of LA talk for Kobe, those title teams Shaq was the alpha, the most dominant force the game has seen since Wilt. It's a shame Shaq wasn't always that dialed in, he could have been in the running for best ever if he was obsessed with the game. And to be honest Kobe couldn't hold Magic's jock as a basketball player.

People like and still like Kobe because he loves basketball. There's something endearing about that. Everyone wants their star players to be as dedicated and competitive as Kobe.

 

[intlzncster]

No it’s not a skills competition but what could Shaq do outside the 10% of half-court space he dominated? How many positions could he defend?

Why does that matter? You could say the same thing about Russell or most bigs?
How good would LeBron be if he was in Chris Paul's body? Are you gonna account for his advantage that way?

I've not problem putting Oscar Robertson in my top 10, and I've only seen tape. But he couldn't guard the 4 or the 5 that's for sure.

 

[tzznandrew]

You could say the same thing about Russell or most bigs?

Russell is the wrong example. He was a 6'9" athletic freak who could a number of positions if need be.

But he's the exception, hardly the rule.