Is Big East Expansion complacency costs its teams NCAA bids? | The Boneyard

Is Big East Expansion complacency costs its teams NCAA bids?

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JeffConn

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Reading Sunday Bracketology predictors, the Big East may only be getting 3 NCAA men's bids. Congrats to the teams (i.e., NC State, Oregon and Temple) that unexpectedly won their conference tournaments, but it is unfortunate for the league if none of St. Johns, Seton Hall and Providence gets invited to the Big Dance. St. Johns had a good late season run, Providence made some noise in the Big East Tournament and Seton Hall had a good regular season showing. Other than being members of more nationally favored conferences, why should teams like Oklahoma and Michigan State get invited ahead of these Big East teams? Oklahoma is 20-12 overall, but has a losing record at 8-10 in conference. At 19-14 overall (14 losses which are comparable to Villanova), Michigan State lost to James Madison at home and has no great out-of-conference wins, losing to Duke and Arizona. Those schools seem to benefit by being able to accumulate more regular season wins from conferences with more members.

Maybe the Big East should prioritize adding more schools? This might provide more in-conference games and allow for more opportunities for teams to separate themselves from the middle of the pack and lower teams in conference. While there aren't any no-brainer expansion candidates, schools like VCU, Dayton, Florida Atlantic and Loyola of Chicago (as a potential local rival for Depaul) might be able to improve their national standing from becoming part of the Big East, the way Creighton has done it. Or maybe something bold should be tried like merging some of the top West Coast Conference Schools (Gonzaga, St. Mary's, Univ. of San Francisco, etc.) into a new separate division with existing midwestern Big East schools? The University Presidents should consider pushing the Commissioner to expand now or starting to look for a new dynamic commissioner. This expansion might be leveraged in a way to create more conference revenue as well. Through aggressive expansion, Brett Yormark has rescued the Big 12 from a potential downward specter created by Texas and Oklahoma leaving.
 
UAB is beating temple right now so that's one spot still free
 
JeffConn said:
Reading Sunday Bracketology predictors, the Big East may only be getting 3 NCAA men's bids. Congrats to the teams (i.e., NC State, Oregon and Temple) that unexpectedly won their conference tournaments, but it is unfortunate for the league if none of St. Johns, Seton Hall and Providence gets invited to the Big Dance. St. Johns had a good late season run, Providence made some noise in the Big East Tournament and Seton Hall had a good regular season showing. Other than being members of more nationally favored conferences, why should teams like Oklahoma and Michigan State get invited ahead of these Big East teams? Oklahoma is 20-12 overall, but has a losing record at 8-10 in conference. At 19-14 overall (14 losses which are comparable to Villanova), Michigan State lost to James Madison at home and has no great out-of-conference wins, losing to Duke and Arizona. Those schools seem to benefit by being able to accumulate more regular season wins from conferences with more members.

Maybe the Big East should prioritize adding more schools? This might provide more in-conference games and allow for more opportunities for teams to separate themselves from the middle of the pack and lower teams in conference. While there aren't any no-brainer expansion candidates, schools like VCU, Dayton, Florida Atlantic and Loyola of Chicago (as a potential local rival for Depaul) might be able to improve their national standing from becoming part of the Big East, the way Creighton has done it. Or maybe something bold should be tried like merging some of the top West Coast Conference Schools (Gonzaga, St. Mary's, Univ. of San Francisco, etc.) into a new separate division with existing midwestern Big East schools? The University Presidents should consider pushing the Commissioner to expand now or starting to look for a new dynamic commissioner. This expansion might be leveraged in a way to create more conference revenue as well. Through aggressive expansion, Brett Yormark has rescued the Big 12 from a potential downward specter created by Texas and Oklahoma leaving.
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You can never count on supposedly good teams beating bad ones. That’s the main reason the BE has only 3 bids. There are 4 teams that are packed at that bubble line, and everytime a favorite loses, the bubble rises.
 
Sorry, but you're missing what actually helps a league. Expansion with the teams you reference would not help, and could hurt. The Big East needs to discuss scheduling at a league level, and the teams need to do better outside the conference. That's it.

That, and the NCAA should penalize leagues that have a bid stealer. Dayton should be out (they aren't particularly impressive), UVa should be out, lowest NET Mountain West team should be out. Looks pretty shady when all these crap conferences (yes, I'm including the ACC) have bid stealers.

@xclamations, how does UAB winning bring a bid back? They weren't going to get a bid any more than Temple was.
 
I think part of the problem is that the B1G is perennially overrated, and they get a lot of credit for beating each other. There’s never a bad in-conference loss, and every win is a good one. Then they all get bounced early in the tournament. I’m watching the championship game now, and to my unpracticed eye, I think SJU could hold their own with either of these teams. Heck, Wisconsin lost 8 of their last 11 games, and somehow they’re not a bubble team.
 
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USNA90 said:
I think part of the problem is that the B1G is perennially overrated, and they get a lot of credit for beating each other. There’s never a bad in-conference loss, and every win is a good one. Then they all get bounced early in the tournament. I’m watching the championship game now, and to my unpracticed eye, I think SJU could hold their own with either of these teams. Heck, Wisconsin lost 8 of their last 11 games, and somehow they’re not a bubble team.
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This is definitely a problem. There should be some way to weight conferences based on past tournament performance, but the NCAA would never figure out a way to do it and if they did it would somehow help the Big 10 more than it hurts them. Nothing will be done to take $$ away from SEC, Big 10 or Big 12 teams regardless of performance. It’d be cool if they let the previous year’s champion’s conference get an at large selection if they have a team on the bubble.
 
uconngb said:
No it’s actually not. Neither of those teams was getting an at large bid.
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True, but we will have to see how many teams the American gets in. They were projected to get 2. Is UAB/Temple #3?
Or do they steal a bid from USF/FAU?
 
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Hurleyman216 said:
This is definitely a problem. There should be some way to weight conferences based on past tournament performance, but the NCAA would never figure out a way to do it and if they did it would somehow help the Big 10 more than it hurts them. Nothing will be done to take $$ away from SEC, Big 10 or Big 12 teams regardless of performance. It’d be cool if they let the previous year’s champion’s conference get an at large selection if they have a team on the bubble.
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Nah. Every year should be independent. B10 does really well OOC, that's why they get a ton of bids. If the BE wants more bids, they shouldn't have two sub-200 (one sub-300) teams, they should do better in the OOC, and they should probably not let their conference champion only lose twice. UConn-Marquette-Creighton as a trio at the top, and Georgetown-DePaul at the bottom, absolutely spit-roasted the bubble teams. That and they sharted all over themselves OOC. Nova lost to three terrible teams. St. John's lost to Michigan and Boston College. Seton Hall lost to USC, Iowa, and Rutgers.

You want to know why the B10 is likely to get more bids aside from size? Michigan stinks and beat a BE bubble team. Rutgers stinks and beat a BE bubble team. Iowa was barely on the bubble but beat Seton Hall. These games matter and give them earned built in advantages.
 
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slepers said:
I don’t understand the logic, they pla twenty in conference games now, the round robin would be gone. What would it accomplish?
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We need another DePaul or Rutgers to help the top half teams. However, we don’t want this via expansion.
 
Big East just needs to give DePaul a mandate. You have 3 years to improve you NET/kenpom, rank to be worthy of conference or your out… and then try to get Syracuse to come back and hope Syracuse can get back to what they were.
 
Hurleyman216 said:
This is definitely a problem. There should be some way to weight conferences based on past tournament performance, but the NCAA would never figure out a way to do it and if they did it would somehow help the Big 10 more than it hurts them. Nothing will be done to take $$ away from SEC, Big 10 or Big 12 teams regardless of performance. It’d be cool if they let the previous year’s champion’s conference get an at large selection if they have a team on the bubble.
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Interesting thought, but I think this would apply more for when rosters didn't change as much and the majority of players stayed all 4 years or at least longer than they do now. Today the rosters change so much using past NCAA tournaments to affect who gets in the NCAA Tournament of the current year might not be such a hot idea, but it is interesting.
 
USNA90 said:
I think part of the problem is that the B1G is perennially overrated, and they get a lot of credit for beating each other. There’s never a bad in-conference loss, and every win is a good one. Then they all get bounced early in the tournament. I’m watching the championship game now, and to my unpracticed eye, I think SJU could hold their own with either of these teams. Heck, Wisconsin lost 8 of their last 11 games, and somehow they’re not a bubble team.
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The B1G benefits from the fact that NCAA headquarters is in their footprint, the historical ancestry of basketball is in their footprint, so there's a lot of unearned benefit of the doubt when it comes to their programs.

They're also 0 for the last 23 championships. They claim to be a top 2 conference, but there are 5 programs that have won multiple championships in that span.
 
Absolutely not. It's doing the opposite. By playing true round robin in the 2nd best conference in the country, it significantly helps our teams' SOS. Big East teams just need to win in the non conference and the committee (we don't actually know yet) needs to stop overrating bad teams from mediocre-to-poor "power" conferences
 
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Stinger92860 said:
We need another DePaul or Rutgers to help the top half teams. However, we don’t want this via expansion.
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A program like DePaul absolutely killed our bubble schools because they lost everything OOC and then made any game against them essentially no-win. Close wins hurt the metrics.

We need DePaul to be frisky. You want your last place team to be like 6-14 with no bad OOC losses.
 
Chuck said:
That, and the NCAA should penalize leagues that have a bid stealer.
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This. Absolutely, because they already do this with the minor leagues. USF will be passed over because of its own league "bid stealer". All the minor leagues suffer the same fate. Unfortunately there are the haves and have-nots.
 
UConn-Marquette-Creighton had a total of 9 losses to other BE teams. That's...not a lot.

UConn had only on outside of that group.
Marquette had 3.
Creighton was most generous, with 6, but they also had the least impressive OOC.
 
navery12 said:
USF isn't getting in, don't think they're even close to the bubble either
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I think you are right. I misunderstood what I was looking at. The question is whether or not the American gets 1 or 2 bids, not 3.
 
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JeffConn said:
Reading Sunday Bracketology predictors, the Big East may only be getting 3 NCAA men's bids. Congrats to the teams (i.e., NC State, Oregon and Temple) that unexpectedly won their conference tournaments, but it is unfortunate for the league if none of St. Johns, Seton Hall and Providence gets invited to the Big Dance. St. Johns had a good late season run, Providence made some noise in the Big East Tournament and Seton Hall had a good regular season showing. Other than being members of more nationally favored conferences, why should teams like Oklahoma and Michigan State get invited ahead of these Big East teams? Oklahoma is 20-12 overall, but has a losing record at 8-10 in conference. At 19-14 overall (14 losses which are comparable to Villanova), Michigan State lost to James Madison at home and has no great out-of-conference wins, losing to Duke and Arizona. Those schools seem to benefit by being able to accumulate more regular season wins from conferences with more members.

Maybe the Big East should prioritize adding more schools? This might provide more in-conference games and allow for more opportunities for teams to separate themselves from the middle of the pack and lower teams in conference. While there aren't any no-brainer expansion candidates, schools like VCU, Dayton, Florida Atlantic and Loyola of Chicago (as a potential local rival for Depaul) might be able to improve their national standing from becoming part of the Big East, the way Creighton has done it. Or maybe something bold should be tried like merging some of the top West Coast Conference Schools (Gonzaga, St. Mary's, Univ. of San Francisco, etc.) into a new separate division with existing midwestern Big East schools? The University Presidents should consider pushing the Commissioner to expand now or starting to look for a new dynamic commissioner. This expansion might be leveraged in a way to create more conference revenue as well. Through aggressive expansion, Brett Yormark has rescued the Big 12 from a potential downward specter created by Texas and Oklahoma leaving.
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20 conference games is a lot
 
JeffConn said:
CU, Dayton, Florida Atlantic and Loyola of Chicago
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BE has one school per state and theyre all in big cities except for UConn. the only expansion candidate i'd consider is VCU. virginia borders our existing footpring and richmond is relatively big. yet they didnt make the tourney anyways.

furthermore, VCU is not bringing in their fair share of revenue. gonzaga is the only team that would do that in the next tv deal, so the existing teams would end up losing money if we had to split it up 12 ways instead of 11.
 
The irony for St John's is that Rick Pitino's son will be "kinda" responsible for keeping his dad's team out. New Mexico in, SJ's out.
 
I think having DePaul and Georgetown hurts as does teams like Butler and Xavier who looked good early collapsing in the second half of the season. The league is top heavy right now.
 
bendm said:
BE has one school per state and theyre all in big cities except for UConn. the only expansion candidate i'd consider is VCU and they didnt make the tourney anyways.
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Saint Louis could make sense to better balance East-West. But my strong preference would be to keep it as it is rather than add anyone.

Creighton
Saint Louis
Marquette
DePaul
Xavier
Butler

PC
UConn
Seton Hall
St. John's
Villanova
Georgetown
 
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