Inside The Greatest Collapse In Baseball History

[60'sfan]

I agree with Danzz. As much as I like Tito and I think he did a great job for most of his tenure, he did lose control of the team. I think he coddled the players too much. Sending the starters ahead of the rest of the team so that they could rest, giving guys a day off during critical games never made much sense to me. And if there were players who were not in the dugout during the games, he should have stopped it. If he is really the manager that should have been within his authority. I cannot imagine that happening with Maddon or Ozzie Guillen.
I also place some of the fault with Adrian Gonzalez. When he was with the Padres, one of my friends who is a huge Padre's fan told me several times that Adrian was a "cancer" to the team. He never hustled or put any extra effort into anything. As I reflect back on this past season, I don't think I ever saw Adrian even attempt to go from first to third on a single to right or attempt to score from second on a single. Several times, I watched him jog to first on a ground ball. He is a great hitter and fielder but I was hoping to see some leadership from him too. I never did.

 

[Cheddie]

You are correct. Levine is a greasy slimey snake. Cashman is a clueless . They are both "close" to the Steinbrenner family. THAT is why they stay when people like Torre are run out of town. And I fear that Girardi will be the next scapegoat.

BTW, Gene Michaels and Bob Watson are the ones responsible for the Yankee success in the late 90s through 2000, no Cashman. Coin flips could have resulted in as many good and bad decisions as he has made. Money is what keeps them from being the Astros. Ironically, the Steinbrenners supply the money and also cause the fron office disasters.

I think you give Michaels too much credit and Cashman too little. "Clueless "? If he left NY, he'd have half a dozen teams bidding for him. I agree that the core of Jeter, Rivera, Posada, Pettitte that really lead to the championships pre-dated Cash. But he's done a good job in a tough position, being second guessed first by George's Tampa cronies, and then by Hank and Levine. A lot of contracts were pushed through over his objection - see ARod and Soriano. Has he had some poor signings? Hell, yeah - but so has every other GM. He's built the minor league system up from an abysmal disaster to one actually stocked with prospects. I'm not sure how "close" to the Steinbrenners he is. Seems to have a good relationship with Hal. But if Hank were still running the team, I'd doubt Cashman would be the GM. Levine was hired as Giuliani's inside guy to work the politics of a new stadium and has stayed on like a leech. Levine and Trost are definitely not Cashman's allies.

 

[Waquoit]

The Francona stuff was without question leaked to the Globe. Don't blame the Globe: what sports writer in the country wouldn't print that?

The sports editor should have squashed it unless the accuser was willing to go on the record. It was a scummy thing to print and the guy should be fired.

 

[Deadrody]

The smug satisfaction of NYY fans here is amusing given their short memories. Wasn't it just a few months ago that certain members of NY's front office was throwing their beloved el cap-i-tan under the bus. You don't get much skeevier than Randy Levine. And Cashman is no saint either.

That said, Sox ownership deserves the grief they are getting. And we'll see how Theo does with the Cubs. All I know is that his last 4-5 years with the Sox were marked by one bad decision after another. Can't say he has left with the cupboard stacked in terms of minor league talent.

Yes, shame on those Yankee owners for not wanting to give a guy that was barely replacement level for all of 2010 some ridiculous multi-year deal worth $50 million.

We'll all keep this in the back of our memories for the upcoming negotiations with Papelbon and Ortiz. I'm sure the Sox will just break the bank and dole out the millions.

 

[Deadrody]

Teams win. Teams lose. I know, profound. But after many, many, MANY years of following baseball, I have learned to accept that no matter how good, how much of a favorite your team is, they can and will lose.

So, no, I'm not surprised. I saw the weaknesses of this years team. I'm not even sure they were that much of a favorite. And they were ONE hit away from winning the series anyways.

Spending money gives you a great chance of making the playoffs but it doesn't guarentee anything. So, no, I'm not incredulous about them only winning 1 in the last several years.

Sorry, I know you want me to be more upset about it. Now, if Burnett, Sabathia, and Colon were drinking beer, eating fried chicken and playing video games DURING games as the Yanks were sinking, I'd be PISSED OFF.

Indeed. The aberration is not the Yankees failing to win more than 1 world series between 2001 and 2011. The aberration was the Yankees going to the series in 6 of 8 years and winning 4 of them. We'd all like to think you can assemble the best team and set them about winning championships every year, but that simply isn't the case. Just ask the Phillies and their all-world pitching staff. Or ask the Eagles dream team about their 1-4 record.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

Indeed. The aberration is not the Yankees failing to win more than 1 world series between 2001 and 2011. The aberration was the Yankees going to the series in 6 of 8 years and winning 4 of them. We'd all like to think you can assemble the best team and set them about winning championships every year, but that simply isn't the case. Just ask the Phillies and their all-world pitching staff. Or ask the Eagles dream team about their 1-4 record.

One thing that most people seem to forget is that prior to signing Mike Mussina after winning the 2000 world series, the highest profile free agent the Yankees signed during their world series years was Mike Stanton. Signing Wells (free agent from Baltimore) was basically a trade after the 96 season as the O's signed Jimmy Key from the Yanks at basically the same time. The remainder of the Yanks were either home grown or acquired by intelligent trades.

I was a bit uncomfortable when they signed mussina and absolutely hated the idea of giambi the following offseason. Once the Yanks got back to adding high profile free agents the character of the team changed dramatically and all of a sudden they started losing in the playoffs regularly.

 

[Cheddie]

The sports editor should have squashed it unless the accuser was willing to go on the record. It was a scummy thing to print and the guy should be fired.

The news business would be gutted without unnamed "sources." Often it's the only way to get a story. But clearly there are instances like this where someone has an ax to grind and hides behind anonymity. I agree that it was pretty low to dump that garbage on Francona, who I've always liked as a classy guy. That said, newspapers are really struggling, and if a sports editor didn't run this story, which probably created the most buzz for the paper in a month, he'd be fired.

 

[bpo57]

Yes, shame on those Yankee owners for not wanting to give a guy that was barely replacement level for all of 2010 some ridiculous multi-year deal worth $50 million.

We'll all keep this in the back of our memories for the upcoming negotiations with Papelbon and Ortiz. I'm sure the Sox will just break the bank and dole out the millions.

No issue with their unwillingness to give Jeter a ridiculous deal. That's not the point. Their willingness to savage Jeter in the media is the point. Sorry you missed it.

 

[bpo57]

Indeed. The aberration is not the Yankees failing to win more than 1 world series between 2001 and 2011. The aberration was the Yankees going to the series in 6 of 8 years and winning 4 of them. We'd all like to think you can assemble the best team and set them about winning championships every year, but that simply isn't the case. Just ask the Phillies and their all-world pitching staff. Or ask the Eagles dream team about their 1-4 record.

Or ask your Cowboys about their futility over the last decade and a half.

Interesting that you are perfectly content with one title in 11 years. Wow, how the mighty have fallen. Comparing a MLB team that spends more money on their starting nine than just about every other team in baseball spends on their entire roster to NFL teams that must play by the salary cap is goofy.

 

[doggydaddy]

No issue with their unwillingness to give Jeter a ridiculous deal. That's not the point. Their willingness to savage Jeter in the media is the point. Sorry you missed it.

Savage?

If that was savage, what do you call what the Sox did to Francona?

 

[Deadrody]

No issue with their unwillingness to give Jeter a ridiculous deal. That's not the point. Their willingness to savage Jeter in the media is the point. Sorry you missed it.

Yes, one milquetoast comment is now defined as "savage". Good one.

 

[Deadrody]

Or ask your Cowboys about their futility over the last decade and a half.

Interesting that you are perfectly content with one title in 11 years. Wow, how the mighty have fallen. Comparing a MLB team that spends more money on their starting nine than just about every other team in baseball spends on their entire roster to NFL teams that must play by the salary cap is goofy.

Yes, I'm "perfectly content". That would be great if it were true. Too bad its not. Whether or not I am "content" with the outcome doesn't change the fact that I recognize even with the best team, you can't always win.

And please stop with the idiotic shots about other teams. Ask my Cowboys ? You mean the one that didn't have a quarterback of professional quality for nearly a decade (Hutchinson, Bledsoe, Carter, etc.) ? You're lumping them in with the teams with the highest payrolls and the best players (Phillies and Eagles) that failed to win ? Sorry, they don't qualify. And even with some of the more high profile players in the league, if you were paying attention to the 3 rookie / first year players on their offensive line, you'd know they STILL don't really qualify.

 

[Danzz]

Yes, I'm "perfectly content". That would be great if it were true. Too bad its not. Whether or not I am "content" with the outcome doesn't change the fact that I recognize even with the best team, you can't always win.

And please stop with the idiotic shots about other teams. Ask my Cowboys ? You mean the one that didn't have a quarterback of professional quality for nearly a decade (Hutchinson, Bledsoe, Carter, etc.) ? You're lumping them in with the teams with the highest payrolls and the best players (Phillies and Eagles) that failed to win ? Sorry, they don't qualify. And even with some of the more high profile players in the league, if you were paying attention to the 3 rookie / first year players on their offensive line, you'd know they STILL don't really qualify.

Savage?

If that was savage, what do you call what the Sox did to Francona?

They did beat up Jeter in the press. BTW, I predicted that Jeter would have a decent year and he did. Is he worth the money at this point in his career? Of course not and he will be worth a lot less in his final 2 contract years but he can still play altough not at an allstar level.
The problem with leaked info is that you never really know where it comes from. Teams have large staffs and anyone from a secretary to an owner can leak to the press. Mix in a little leaked information and a sportswriters opinion and you can end up with a story that is much more toxic than reality.
Tito deserved some of the bad press he received along with everyone else in the organization. The collapse had more to do with pitching failures at the top of the rotation and injuries than someone drinking a beer in the clubhouse. There may be some clubhouse problems but the bad press makes it easier for the next manager to fix it.

 

[Danzz]

Tito didn't lose control the players did. They're grown men, well most are, and should have a handle on what it takes to win. Managers are always blamed but this one is obvious. And it's also obvious this came from Lucchino - he's a major league a**hole. But hey I find it pretty funny watching this unfold. Quite a circus event!!

Mckeon had a similar problem and he locked the clubhouse door during games and fixed the situation. Tito could have done the same. You have to be loving this.

 

[bpo57]

Savage?

If that was savage, what do you call what the Sox did to Francona?

What the Sox did to Francona was despicable. Not here to defend it. But you look the other way when the NYY went after Jeter in the press last winter.

 

[bpo57]

Yes, one milquetoast comment is now defined as "savage". Good one.

Milquetoast? LOL. Jeter didn't think it was milquetoast.

 

[bpo57]

Yes, I'm "perfectly content". That would be great if it were true. Too bad its not. Whether or not I am "content" with the outcome doesn't change the fact that I recognize even with the best team, you can't always win.

And please stop with the idiotic shots about other teams. Ask my Cowboys ? You mean the one that didn't have a quarterback of professional quality for nearly a decade (Hutchinson, Bledsoe, Carter, etc.) ? You're lumping them in with the teams with the highest payrolls and the best players (Phillies and Eagles) that failed to win ? Sorry, they don't qualify. And even with some of the more high profile players in the league, if you were paying attention to the 3 rookie / first year players on their offensive line, you'd know they STILL don't really qualify.

The Cowboys have been incredibly mediocre for a long time despite having the biggest revenue pile of anybody in the NFL. Simply due to bad management, starting right at the top. Who else would you blame for not having a QB? You trying to say the Cowboys have had a small payroll? You're kidding, right?

 

[doggydaddy]

What the Sox did to Francona was despicable. Not here to defend it. But you look the other way when the NYY went after Jeter in the press last winter.

You really remember how I reacted to the "Yankees went after Jeter" story last winter? Really?

 

[bpo57]

You really remember how I reacted to the "Yankees went after Jeter" story last winter? Really?

That's exactly the point. I don't remember you complaining about it at all. Could be wrong on that but that's my recollection.

 

[doggydaddy]

That's exactly the point. I don't remember you complaining about it at all. Could be wrong on that but that's my recollection.

I don't know what was to complain about.

The FO reacted to Jeter's agent going to the press. So they did the same. It was not necessary, but much ado about nothing in my opinion.

Jeter Story

It is so far from how poorly they treated Francona, I'm not sure how you can compare the two situations.

 

[bpo57]

I don't know what was to complain about.

The FO reacted to Jeter's agent going to the press. So they did the same. It was not necessary, but much ado about nothing in my opinion.

Jeter Story

It is so far from how poorly they treated Francona, I'm not sure how you can compare the two situations.

They had one thing in common. The FO of both teams went to the press to try to diminish their employee to make them look bad.

 

[Dogdeacon]

The stuff about Tito was just lower than low. Unbelievable, yet totally to be expected from you people. Good Lord, is there anyone you won't run over on the way out of town? Do you people have ANY shame? I guess we have the answer that's always been there: no. You do not. I am enjoying this not because it's the Red Sox, rather, because it is a commupance your fanbase has deserved for a long, long time.

There is nothing similar between Randy Levine making a general statement about players building mansions and MANAGEMENT CLAIMING THE MANAGER HAS A DRUG PROBLEM.

Ask anyone in baseball who has a better future, Red Sox or Yankees. No question. One has a farm system. One made the same stupid mistakes the Yankees did earlier this decade.

Lavarnway-lite, my ass.

Who is you people? Somehow the writings of the Boston Globe are interpreted as being the voice of Red Sox fans, or altertnatively when it serves your purpose the management/ownership is a flawed reflection of fans that deserve a reckoning?! YOU must believe the fans run the Red Sox via democracy and elect the ownership? Maybe Red Sox fans serve as CHB's editor in chief?

Fans support their team thru thick and thin but have no say in matters. If an idiot on a team we root for like say Marcus Williams decides to steal a laptop that doesn't make UConn fans thieves any moreso than any of this crap says a thing about people that root for a baseball team.

Also the Yankees and their fans are not destined for shrines because their biggest rivals had a September.

 

[bpo57]

Who is you people? Somehow the writings of the Boston Globe are interpreted as being the voice of Red Sox fans, or altertnatively when it serves your purpose the management/ownership is a flawed reflection of fans that deserve a reckoning?! YOU must believe the fans run the Red Sox via democracy and elect the ownership? Maybe Red Sox fans serve as CHB's editor in chief?

Fans support their team thru thick and thin but have no say in matters. If an idiot on a team we root for like say Marcus Williams decides to steal a laptop that doesn't make UConn fans thieves any moreso than any of this crap says a thing about people that root for a baseball team.

Also the Yankees and their fans are not destined for shrines because their biggest rivals had a September.

C'mon Deac, what's wrong with you. Like zls always says, you must own your failure.

 

[Deadrody]

What the Sox did to Francona was despicable. Not here to defend it. But you look the other way when the NYY went after Jeter in the press last winter.

Went after him ? They answered questions truthfully. There was never more than 1 or 2 comments from the Yankees about Jeter and they were both on the record and related to matters on the field, i.e. Jeter's value at this age.

The Francona situation had absolutely NONE of that and was nothing more than a smear campaign committed anonymously, after-the-fact.

 

[Deadrody]

The Cowboys have been incredibly mediocre for a long time despite having the biggest revenue pile of anybody in the NFL. Simply due to bad management, starting right at the top. Who else would you blame for not having a QB? You trying to say the Cowboys have had a small payroll? You're kidding, right?

They have a hard cap in the NFL, you know that, right ? Whether or not they have the most revenue is no relevant to the total player salaries. And you'll note I listed both salary AND talent. Just because they gave too much money to players past their prime in some cases does not even put them in the conversation for "best" team. By that measure, we should be talking about how the Isaiah Thomas Knicks and their massive payroll as one of the best teams in the NBA, which they clearly were not. We're talking about the on-field failures of teams with the most accumulated talent. Lumping a mediocre team with losing records in with the 2011 Red Sox is idiotic.

And for the record, the Cowboys are often at teh top of the list in salary, if only because of their available revenues. But according to USA Today, for the 2009-10 season, as one example, they come in at #29. I was able to find data back in 2002, as well, when the average team was at $59 Million. Dallas was #4 in the league at $71 Million, so you seem to be confusing the wide disparity in team payrolls in MLB with the NFL where no such disparity exists.