In there a pattern or trend among the abuse cases at Nebraska, Duke and Loyola?

[CocoHusky]

Mechelle Voepel takes a balanced view in this article.

"There are coaches who abuse their power, and have to be held accountable. But there are also players who blame coaches for their own failures and disappointments."

Series of allegations against coaches marks troubling trend

Is there a pattern or trend?

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

Mechelle Voepel takes a balanced view in this article.

"There are coaches who abuse their power, and have to be held accountable. But there are also players who blame coaches for their own failures and disappointments."

Series of allegations against coaches marks troubling trend

Is there a pattern or trend?

Thought that was a great article. And the answer probably isn't easy.

I was much impressed with the comment by the former Nebraska player, now coaching elsewhere, who had commented that Yori seemed to be the same coach she always was - but that she "never took it personally, she always assumed it was to help her and make her better" (paraphrased). What this says to me is that you "could" take it personally, even though it presumably was meant to help. How horrible is that? Don't know - I took a certain amount of "abuse" from gym teachers for years and lived through it. Of course, my happiness didn't depend on my success in gym class (I was more of a nerd). But determining the line between constructive criticism and "feels like" abusive criticism is probably incredibly difficult.

To the extent that there is a trend, perhaps it is (as Mechelle points out) that situations are escalating more due to influences of social media. And a certain amount of self-righteousness that underlies (in my opinion) some of the general problems we are seeing in our country.

 

[DaddyChoc]

some coaches are extremely hungry for results.... who know, some players can take it some cant, some coaches are too hard some arent hard enough.

if you're going to bring lawsuits just make sure your ducks are in a row

 

[UcMiami]

I though it was a well written article and the tie-in to social media is I think very valid - the immediacy of outsiders being available for feedback and the nature of that communication often being in short text length segments that allow for little subtly vs. at least phone communication where greater nuance is available probably doesn't help. I am copying some of what I posted on the Duke specific thread that went somewhat off the rails specific to coaching because I think it is very much along the lines of what Mechelle is writing:

When there are issues under review with coaches and players it is very seldom 'cut and dried' and you can seldom 'go to the video tape' as they could with the Rutgers basketball coach. In most instances there has been one group of players and former players that are making complaints and another group of players and former players staunchly defending a coach. Athletic excellence requires blood sweat and tears, and it usually involves pushing athletes beyond the limits of what they thought they could do - that is a very frequent statement by both current players and former players at Uconn and within most programs that achieve national success. And the process of breaking through those limits is a combination of players being committed and of coaches pushing hard - that gets to the border of 'mistreatment' and also to the border of masochistic and other mental disorder (see Shea Ralph story) in the athletes themselves. Being 'world class' in any pursuit generally requires a level of 'imbalance' in individuals that can be frightening to mere mortals - where is the line between genius and madness is a frequent discussion and you can look at people like Bobby Fisher, or a movie like 'A Beautiful Mind' for the mental edge, just as you can look at stories of athletes and musicians and scientists who have crossed those lines. And you can look at world class coaches in the same light - Bobby Knight crossing over to the dark side on occasions is well documented.

That is all to say that issues of coaching hard vs. mistreatment are very difficult to determine, especially for outsiders - pushing one player who wants to be pushed may be great coaching, pushing another who has reached breaking point may be terrible and judging the two situation is not easy. Having multiple coaches empowered to modulate and take the temperature I think is the easiest way to avoid most problems and something that Uconn seems to do very well - but they have a very stable staff that also helps, and they are in a position to be very selective in the players they recruit which also helps.

The changing nature of pre-college sports also plays a part - with the amount of time playing games and the very limited practice time HS kids get, many really are unprepared for the rigorous demands placed on them in competitive college sports environments and this is probably more true with women than with men. Society still expects boys to be 'tougher' and more stoic and girls, even gifted athletes, to be more 'fragile'. Add to the surprise of really hard and long practices, the additional frustration of not being better than everyone else on the team, and possibly getting special treatment from previous less than good coaches, and you can have some really hard adjustments.

 

[UcMiami]

I'll add one more thought in light of the lawsuit filed - we have a legal system and a society that believes in 'equal treatment' and has a hard time distinguishing between 'individualized treatment' and favoritism or discrimination - we laugh about the nickname 'Precious' that was given to Nykesha, and it is funny in retrospect, but I am sure there were days when her teammates really resented her 'free ride' when they were getting yelled at, and I am sure she hated the nickname as well. And the pushing and needling of Breanna, Moriah, and Morgan were I am sure very different from each other and from other team members. The coaching they and their teammates received, and Nykesha and her teammates received was very individualized, because though it is a team game, every member of the teams is an individual with differing needs and expectations, different pressure points. To treat them all identically would be a disservice to each of them, but from an outside view would be 'fair' and the fact that they were treated differently would be legally suspect.

In the specific case of Iowa State - Moody was perhaps the only player on the team with real potential for a professional career and a desire to pursue one - there were no Iowa St players drafted in 2014 or 2016 and only Moody in 2015. (There were two players drafted in 2013 and none in 2012.) That she would receive both the greatest playing time on the team and the hardest coaching could be a reflection of her potential and not of 'discrimination'. I have no idea of the merits of her case but I would be very surprised if she didn't receive greater pressure from her coach, both because she was a PG and the most talented player on the team.

 

[UcMiami]

Just FYI - the OTL video imbedded above references a 2010 NCAA study - I was curious enough to look for it and here is the link to the summary:
http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/DI_GOALS_FARA_final_0.pdf

Of note: it references 20K student athletes, but when you break it down by sport and division that works out to 341 DI women's basketball players - a decent sampling, but ...

 

[HuskyNan]

I'll throw another factor in there - parents. Today's helicopter parents think they're "standing up for" their children when they're really teaching them to be entitled and dependent on other people for their happiness. Anyone that stands between the child and whatever the child wants is loudly condemned.

About 10 years ago I worked part time in a middle school as an "office lady", keeping student attendance and sending out failure letters, etc. Parents, mostly moms, would call in and say their child was tired and needed a mental health day. After too many mental health days, I would inevitably have to send a letter to the parents saying their child was failing his classes. I would then get an irate phone call, demanding the teachers assign extra credit projects so the kid could catch up. Heaven forbid the child speak to the teacher and handle his own problems.

Another anecdotal story - my youngest was in the high school marching band. When the band members would get unruly, not pay attention, etc, the drum major would lead the entire band in laps, doing so until he or she got the desired behavior. The kids in the band never minded - they didn't know it but they were building a close, tight-knit team, the way a military unit might. However, in my son's senior year, a mother became outraged at seeing her son run laps but she didn't go to the drum major, the teacher, or the on-field instructors, oh no, she complained to the Board of Education that her son was being hazed. The drum major got written up for hazing and the laps were forbidden by the Board of Ed.

So, I expect these kids will go on to college and some professor or coach has to integrate the kid into their system. But the kid has grown up thinking that "it's all about them" and refuses to accept any form of correction or punishment. The kid isn't a bad person; he or she was just taught to think that way and it was reinforced over and over by the parents.

I'm not saying that that's what's happening at the schools where the complaints were filed because I have no inside knowledge whatsoever. But if a kid does feel that entitlement, it could mess with the team chemistry or make the coach's job more difficult. Just throwing it out there as another factor.

This is one of my hot buttons. I'm not a perfect parent, by any means, but I did try very hard not to hover. To see the young people that are incapable of speaking up for themselves, or who see correction as punishment instead of guidance, or who automatically reject anything that doesn't benefit them, it just breaks my heart. Those poor kids are destined to be unhappy in the long run.

 

[TFintheMix]

In the specific case of Iowa State - Moody was perhaps the only player on the team with real potential for a professional career and a desire to pursue one - there were no Iowa St players drafted in 2014 or 2016 and only Moody in 2015. (There were two players drafted in 2013 and none in 2012.) That she would receive both the greatest playing time on the team and the hardest coaching could be a reflection of her potential and not of 'discrimination'. I have no idea of the merits of her case but I would be very surprised if she didn't receive greater pressure from her coach, both because she was a PG and the most talented player on the team.

"The lawsuit says Fennelly demeaned Cole, at the time the only black player on the team who was not a freshman, saying she “will end up prison, just like her mother,” and also called her a thug."
ISU, former players push back against Moody's allegations

 

[meyers7]

Wow on this question.

I am glad I made the choice to be at this school.

48% - Agree or Strongly Agree.


And men are extremely delusional

How likely do you think it is that you will become a professional and/or Olympic athlete in your sport?

Men's Basketball 76% - at least somewhat likely
(actually % of college MBB player who play in NBA, 1.2%. If you add in International up to 11.6%)

 

[TFintheMix]

I found the following statement from another blog. I edited a bit but it is pretty much as I found it since it reflects my opinion on this matter. Let me know what you folks think...

It seems to me that college basketball "belongs" to the players. It's their experience, their life, their 15 minutes on the big stage.

Nobody makes money off this except the coaches and to some extent the administrators, and the "glory" involved in having a winning program is pretty minimal, all in all for most teams (not UConn).

And it is 2016, after all, and abuse of power is thankfully being viewed more and more as what is: Bad moral behavior by those in power (in this case coaches) and a horrible role model/teaching mechanism for people (in this case young people).

If Bollant, McCallie, Swoopes, Tyler Summitt or whoever abuse that power, cross that moving line between coaching and intruding on the private lives of players -- becoming less a teacher/employer and more a wielder of power for its own sake -- then they should be restrained. And if they can't work within those restraints, they should find another profession.

The players are the sport, and the quality of the players' experience is the most important measure of success. Winning improves everyone's experience, and is a laudable and reasonable goal -- but the end does not justify the means in this situation, and to decry the fact that young people now stand up themselves in cases of abuse is, I think, the exact opposite of what we should be doing.

I would rather have a few coaches fired or driven out who didn't deserve to be than have a few coaches remain who abuse their position and regrettably, abuse it to the point that Tyler Summitt did.

 

[bags27]

the very long responses above demonstrate how important and how much of a hot-button issue this is. I agree that, on the student side, it likely links to the issue of helicopter parents & trigger-warning kids. And, on the coaching side, there is a fine line between getting one's team to win and helping provide student-athletes with a "quality experience." After all, few of the WCBB players will get to play pro ball, so for most of them, it's about the quality of the experience, not necessarily maximizing their (transient) talent or getting their team to the FF.

So, here's an uncomfortable thought. With Geno more mellow these days and Pat no longer coaching, probably the 3 most conspicuously "intense" actors on the sidelines in big-time WCBB are: Dawn, Kim and Brenda F. Do their antics contribute unnecessarily to a culture of intensity and even abuse? Or do the cameras exaggerate it? Over the past few years, TV directors are focusing more on the reactions of sideline coaches in all sports to create a visual narrative. They like animated coaches, because they seem to tell a story--sort of like animated audiences in afternoon game shows.

 

[UcMiami]

Nan - very good point, and I think it goes to more than just 'helicoptering'. In the good old days when I was in school, teachers were always right and failure was pretty well accepted as the students fault. It wasn't always true, and we used to complain amongst ourselves about 'unfair' teachers and try to avoid getting into their classes, but that was just a fact of life. We have as a society now gone to the opposite extreme where we blame everything on the teachers. School districts are so frightened of lawsuits that they bend to every pressure. Neither my experience nor the current environment are good - there are a few really bad teachers that need to be controlled or removed, but there are a lot more problem students that need discipline that they are not receiving.

And we have gone through the looking glass on another issue: the 'special needs' identification used to be a 'stigma' that was anathema to parents and kids alike - it was reserved for children that had very serious issues. Now parents seem to fight hard to get special treatment for their children by identifying any shortcoming as a 'special need' and expecting every community to pay for their individualized education, to say nothing of the pharmaceutical industries desire to develop pills and a new disease for every child born in this country.

 

[UcMiami]

TFintheMix - you seem to be bordering on the edge of one of Geno's criticisms of women's coaching - the 'it's OK dear, try to get it right next time' attitude. You carry that attitude out to the real world and you get the engineer who almost got the specifications right on the airbags in your car, but it was an honest mistake and he will try to do better next time. You can decry the amount of money coming into some universities from sport, but 90% of D1 athletic department lose money every year and their athletes still get free education room and board, training, medical, facilities, etc. - so it doesn't 'belong to the athletes' - intramural sports belong to the athletes, scholarship sports are a contract. DII and DIII sports belong more to the athlete, but they have a much simpler equation - switch to intramural and pick up because they have a limited 'contract' or none at all.

That there are a few coaches who are bad actors is in keeping with every other segment of our society. That life isn't perfect is a given, but to suggest that some fundamental change is necessary in the way coaches coach at D1 is crazy. For most of the D1 coaches involved in these issues even, I suspect that the vast majority of their players and former players strongly supported them and their style of coaching. We see that in the results of long investigations like those at Holy Cross and likely even in instances where the coach departs like Connie Yori.

Geno has the reputation of being one of the hardest task masters in WCBB - but ask Briana Polido if she found value in the experience of being pushed beyond her self imposed limits and she would probably say it was the best educational experience she received at Uconn as would the opposite end of the talent and prospect spectrum Breanna. Neither wanted soft and easy, they learned to love the challenge and the sense of accomplishment. But it is equally easy to imagine and we have seen players both on scholarship and off decide the Uconn program was't for them, or for the coaches to decide they weren't a fit for the program (happened at least once with a player dropped from the team.) And it isn't inconceivable to imagine someone in this modern environment filing complaints against the Uconn staff. I am pretty sure that there was at least one player who left the team in Geno's first year (might be wrong.)

Yes - Tyler abused his position and it took no time to remove him. Swoope's situation looks pretty dire, but lets wait to find out what happens. Iowa State - the lawsuit charges some pretty heinous things (most lawsuits do) but so far there does not appear to be any corroboration or other current/former players stepping forward, and similarly heinous accusations at Illinois while settled out of court have not resulted in that coach being fired. As for Connie at Nebraska who knows, and JPM at Duke ...

 

[UcMiami]

In the previously cited NCAA study I was interested to see the hours required by the student's athletic commitment - it works out as +/- 40 hours. To put some perspective on that - 40/wk job at $15/hour results in earnings of $30K per year for 50 weeks of work. At $20/hr it is $40K and those numbers are pre-tax and payroll deductions.

The cost of attendance at Uconn for an in-state student is estimated at $31,280 and for out-of-state at $53,572. (The out of state cost is not far off an average private school cost)

So scholarship athletes are not suffering through an experience that is significantly different from a student that is paying their own way with some significant financial assistance. To pay a complete out of state/private tuition a student working full time would need to be making close to $40 per hour taking into account taxes.

 

[CocoHusky]

Connie Yori & JPM are almost the identical age roughly 52, Cheryl is a few years younger at 46. I am of their age group. If there is a pattern or trend (I believe there is one) in this mess it is the continuation of one-not the start of something new. Nan and UC may have identified what I believe maybe one of root cause : Parents teaching them (players) to be feel entitled and dependent on other people for their happiness. One of the other not so subtle messages being taught by parents to this generation is “respect” must be earned by everyone. In my generation a great deal of respect did not have to be earned it came along with the position. Those respected positions included elders, coaches, the police, clergy, and teachers. This plays out in exactly what we are seeing, an inevitable generational conflict that results when a coach thinks: I am the coach and as such my authority and respect is not something that is up for earning or debate while this generation of players is thinking and behaving in exactly the opposite way. My daughter is just at the start of her coaching career, she will struggle with this mightily!

 

[CocoHusky]

Basketball is life: Coach’s Wife Annoyed with Women’s Basketball Culture | The Sport Digest

Copied from another Thread but this coaches wife might have summed it up better than all of us combined.

 

[TFintheMix]

TFintheMix - you seem to be bordering on the edge of one of Geno's criticisms of women's coaching - the 'it's OK dear, try to get it right next time' attitude. You carry that attitude out to the real world and you get the engineer who almost got the specifications right on the airbags in your car, but it was an honest mistake and he will try to do better next time. You can decry the amount of money coming into some universities from sport, but 90% of D1 athletic department lose money every year and their athletes still get free education room and board, training, medical, facilities, etc. - so it doesn't 'belong to the athletes' - intramural sports belong to the athletes, scholarship sports are a contract. DII and DIII sports belong more to the athlete, but they have a much simpler equation - switch to intramural and pick up because they have a limited 'contract' or none at all....

First, ideally athletic departments would love to make money but athletics at most schools more that make up for their expense in other ways. The amount of marketing, alumni participation and other intrinsic value garnered by sports more than makes up for the expense at many schools. Those who don't find them sustainable shut them down. Unfortunately, they tend to be sports like gymnastics. I recall when Butler made it to the Final 4 the school estimated that they got hundreds of millions of dollars in direct and indirect benefit.

Second, UConn/Geno is the worst possible example of the type of problems exhibited by the recent scandals. Geno has been successful because he is attracting the women who want to win at all cost. He has been able to translate his tough coaching style as part of his recruiting pitch so the women who come to the program will generally say that they want to play for Geno because he will be tough; he will push them and he will make them better. You have to love his honesty. It sets the proper expectations and it works. The problem is that other coaches are not as honest or they are not great communicators.

Third, I support coaches. It is a really tough job with sometimes absurd expectations. But, you have to be evenhanded in this issue. In the case of Swoope's, for example, when 10 of current 12 players want to leave your program, if you don't see this a major problem and more than a "look and see" than I think that you are devaluing the players all together and unfairly. These young women are not all lazy, malcontents. Most have worked really hard to get to this point in their life to get a D1 scholarship.

 

[UcMiami]

Basketball is life: Coach’s Wife Annoyed with Women’s Basketball Culture | The Sport Digest

Copied from another Thread but this coaches wife might have summed it up better than all of us combined.

Wbbfan1 posted this on the thread 'A coaches Wife ....'
I think the only issue I have is that she is limiting this to just women and just basketball - it is a much more wide-reaching problem than that. That the WCBB environment is seeing a greater outbreak of issues is perhaps because it is the most prominent women's sport, and because the idea of taking women's athletics seriously is still percolating through our society. Too many girls are still seen as their parents precious little flowers to be protected and nourished.

I remember a period of adjustment specific to men's football maybe 20 years ago, maybe longer, where there were a number of old school college coaches being investigated for mistreatment of their players - some of it caught on tape during games. This seems like a similar outbreak.

Coco - I think there is an important difference between Yori and JPM and Cheryl Swoopes. Yori and JM have 20+ years in the business and a solid track record at their current schools while Swoopes is in her third year as a coach at any level, and it hasn't been smooth from the start. While the complaints may be similar the Loyola situation appears to be a complete mutiny by most of her team.

 

[CocoHusky]

I think basketball is all that this wife knows and everything (including life itself) just revolves around and becomes a basketball metaphor. I still found the article very heartfelt.
Great point about the difference between Yori/JPM vs Swoopes, dangerous because it also got me thinking. Swoopes has played at the highest level on women's basketball. Very rarely (maybe never ???) do you see someone play at that level and then successfully coach at the same level.

 

[Orangutan]

To me it's concerning that some people hear of abuse allegations and the first thing they do is rush to support the coaches. Just saw there is a "Support Swoopes" twitter account now. Sample re-tweet:


Oh, they're being pushed all right. Pushed right out the door. 10 of 12 kids want to leave and you want to take the alleged abuser's side before the investigation is even over? Sorry, if 10 kids want out, you have a problem. Maybe it's not a fire-able situation. Maybe she just has really bad breath. But having 10 kids leave every year and the program be a revolving door is untenable.

Then again, that tweet comes from a lawyer who represents condo associations, so he's used to advocating for the scum of the earth. (Not saying that's what Swoopes is...yet)

 

[CocoHusky]

To me it's concerning that some people hear of abuse allegations and the first thing they do is rush to support the coaches. Just saw there is a "Support Swoopes" twitter account now. Sample re-tweet:


Oh, they're being pushed all right. Pushed right out the door. 10 of 12 kids want to leave and you want to take the alleged abuser's side before the investigation is even over? Sorry, if 10 kids want out, you have a problem. Maybe it's not a fire-able situation. Maybe she just has really bad breath. But having 10 kids leave every year and the program be a revolving door is untenable.

Then again, that tweet comes from a lawyer who represents condo associations, so he's used to advocating for the scum of the earth. (Not saying that's what Swoopes is...yet)

Only in America! Serial killers routinely get marriage proposals, a former sex tape star is more respected than the First Lady- A Harvard graduate. Our next president might be.....

 

[RockyMTblue2]

some coaches are extremely hungry for results.... who know, some players can take it some cant, some coaches are too hard some arent hard enough.

if you're going to bring lawsuits just make sure your ducks are in a row

Unless you're the Big Duck, the view never changes. So make sure, when you're getting them in a row ... well, actually, being so big the Big Duck could still have a great view in the back and the little ducks... ah, nevermind. I've forgotten where I was going with this. Oh, oh, I remember. Sometimes coaches forget that "the Big Duck" isn't them. That's what Geno tells us, the faithful, every year. It isn't about him. It's the kids and seeing them realize their dreams.

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

To me it's concerning that some people hear of abuse allegations and the first thing they do is rush to support the coaches. Just saw there is a "Support Swoopes" twitter account now. Sample re-tweet:


Oh, they're being pushed all right. Pushed right out the door. 10 of 12 kids want to leave and you want to take the alleged abuser's side before the investigation is even over? Sorry, if 10 kids want out, you have a problem. Maybe it's not a fire-able situation. Maybe she just has really bad breath. But having 10 kids leave every year and the program be a revolving door is untenable.

Then again, that tweet comes from a lawyer who represents condo associations, so he's used to advocating for the scum of the earth. (Not saying that's what Swoopes is...yet)

Most likely, I think, it will turn out that Swoopes just isn't talented at the player relationship side of coaching. I could be wrong but that is what I think.

I think it is likely very hard for someone with lots of talent to coach a group of players who, to be honest, are much less talented. And a player that aspired to the F4, Olympics, WNBA greatness to coach players that don't realistically have those expectations.

 

[UcMiami]

I think basketball is all that this wife knows and everything (including life itself) just revolves around and becomes a basketball metaphor. I still found the article very heartfelt.
Great point about the difference between Yori/JPM vs Swoopes, dangerous because it also got me thinking. Swoopes has played at the highest level on women's basketball. Very rarely (maybe never ???) do you see someone play at that level and then successfully coach at the same level.

I think this gets over-used - Kim, Pat, Dawn, and quite a few others were both really good players and really good coaches. I think where it gets tricky is that many players who have had professional playing careers are unwilling to work their way into the profession, but apply for and are hired directly into prestigious HC positions. Tonya, CD, Jamelle, Shea have all taken a slower approach.

 

[BroadwayVa]

Thought that was a great article. And the answer probably isn't easy.

I was much impressed with the comment by the former Nebraska player, now coaching elsewhere, who had commented that Yori seemed to be the same coach she always was - but that she "never took it personally, she always assumed it was to help her and make her better" (paraphrased). What this says to me is that you "could" take it personally, even though it presumably was meant to help. How horrible is that? Don't know - I took a certain amount of "abuse" from gym teachers for years and lived through it. Of course, my happiness didn't depend on my success in gym class (I was more of a nerd). But determining the line between constructive criticism and "feels like" abusive criticism is probably incredibly difficult.

To the extent that there is a trend, perhaps it is (as Mechelle points out) that situations are escalating more due to influences of social media. And a certain amount of self-righteousness that underlies (in my opinion) some of the general problems we are seeing in our country.

I was abused EVERYWHERE!!! In first grade the made me clean up the floor when someone urinated in the class room (me). Told my Mom and she swatted by sit down.
In 8th grade I was expelled for a week--I told that girl not to tell-- told Dad, then Dad winked then swatted my sit down.
In Boot camp the D.I. picked on me relentlessly--yelled, used dirty words, said somethings I didn't understand about my heritage-lineage--etc. Told Dad and he said--yep, they did the same thing to me..
Why is I couldn't sue any of those abusers??
I guess abuse is in the way you see things--then as well as now. Just because you SAY abuse does not mean (in every case) that abuse occurred