In light of OU's comments, Herbst/Pendergast better be on the ball with realignment

[Adios]

Penn State doesn't even have a hockey program right now. If UConn allocated resources to build a better hockey program, that would obviously benefit it. B1G schools take hockey very seriously. If hockey was so irrelevant to them, why would they be starting their own hockey conference?

 

[brasssbonanzaa]

Penn State got a huge donation to start their program, and fans of the other four power B1G schools aren't happy they have to play them either. Hockey is irrelevant to expansion. At those four schools though, especially MN, MI, and WI, it's a huge deal. They're starting their own conference more because they can make money off of it. Most of the fans don't like it, and college hockey fans in general are up in arms that the conference exists at all, because they're losing existing rivalries with former conference mates who are not b1g teams. PSU will take a while to get better, but they've got the financial backing for it. UConn has repeatedly shown they have no interest in improving their hockey program. If UConn were to join the B1G, I wouldn't be shocked if the other hockey members try to keep them out of the conference to keep from diluting the quality of play.

 

[brasssbonanzaa]

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/s...s-texas-longhorns-being-discussed-source-says

if this is true, we're back to where we were last summer, and hopefully the big east offices reopen their discussions with ku et al.

 

[noeynox]

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/s...s-texas-longhorns-being-discussed-source-says

if this is true, we're back to where we were last summer, and hopefully the big east offices reopen their discussions with ku et al.

Well, if thats true, it just shows how effed up Texas has been in this whole mess. Their reluctance to be an "equal" partner with their Big 12 Mates, is a big reason that conference is coming apart at the seams. I doubt that the Pac 12 schools are going to agree to Texas getting a larger piece of the pie or agree to their Longhorn Network. If they give that up and join the Pac 16 on equal terms, it is a slap in the face to their long term partners, and what they thought of them all along.

 

[noeynox]

http://newsok.com/ous-sole-focus-now-on-joining-pac-12/article/3601037?custom_click=lead_story_title

The Big 12's demise is looking like a formality. Oh boy, wonder if this sets off the chain of events of super conferences. Can't see how this is good for the Big East. Someone post something to make me feel better. I mean is there a chance UConn gets screwed here?

 

[upstater]

Penn State got a huge donation to start their program, and fans of the other four power B1G schools aren't happy they have to play them either. Hockey is irrelevant to expansion. At those four schools though, especially MN, MI, and WI, it's a huge deal. They're starting their own conference more because they can make money off of it. Most of the fans don't like it, and college hockey fans in general are up in arms that the conference exists at all, because they're losing existing rivalries with former conference mates who are not b1g teams. PSU will take a while to get better, but they've got the financial backing for it. UConn has repeatedly shown they have no interest in improving their hockey program. If UConn were to join the B1G, I wouldn't be shocked if the other hockey members try to keep them out of the conference to keep from diluting the quality of play.

Then Big10 shells out $25 million a year to members. You should take a quick look at Purdue's books. They're rolling in $$. I imagine UConn could have flexibility to do lots of different things with that much money.

 

[RS9999X]

Can't see how this is good for the Big East. Someone post something to make me feel better. I mean is there a chance UConn gets screwed here?

The SEC stops at 14. The BIG-10 and ACC are set at 12. Baylor and Kansas to the BE Baylor and TCU give the BE great positionng in the Dallas/Fort Worth market -- the #4 MSA.

A war erupts over Nova, K State and Iowa State as the 12th member. SMU, Houston and UCF scream foul.

 

[upstater]

The SEC stops at 14. The BIG-10 and ACC are set at 12. Baylor and Kansas to the BE Baylor and TCU give the BE great positionng in the Dallas/Fort Worth market -- the #4 MSA.

A war erupts over Nova, K State and Iowa State as the 12th member. SMU, Houston and UCF scream foul.

Who is SEC's 14th? Missouri? If it's ACC, then things go haywire. BE isn't inviting Baylor. Kansas St. would get in prior to them. Let's say SEC goes with Missouri. Then I can see the ACC and B10 staying pat. BE would add three, with the third being a big question mark.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

The SEC stops at 14. The BIG-10 and ACC are set at 12. Baylor and Kansas to the BE Baylor and TCU give the BE great positionng in the Dallas/Fort Worth market -- the #4 MSA.

A war erupts over Nova, K State and Iowa State as the 12th member. SMU, Houston and UCF scream foul.

Where does the SEC go for 14? The Big 12? Missouri?

If you are right, and the the Big 10 and ACC stop at 12, that would be the best outcome. At this point, there is no reason to be proactive until we see what the Big 10 and SEC do. If it looks like the SEC and Big 10 are going to 16, begin negotiations with the ACC about a split from the hoops onlies and a merger, likely into the Big East.

If it looks like the Big 10 and SEC are holding tight, I think you just add Kansas for all sports, and Temple and BYU for football only. I don't want the rest of them for all sports, and I am not in favor of splitting from quality hoops programs in New York, Chicago, DC, Philly and Milwaukee so I can take a trip to Ames, IA or Manhattan, KS. The hoops-onlies will LOVE Kansas, and the Big East avoids getting locked into a bunch of long-term relationships that could become problematic if the sands shift again later.

As for those shouting "BE PROACTIVE, BE PROACTIVE", if the Big East had followed you advice and added ECU/Memphis/UCF/whoever, every semi-decent program would be racing for the door right now. The Big East football schools seem pretty happy with each other, which is critical in these situations.

 

[upstater]

As for those shouting "BE PROACTIVE, BE PROACTIVE", if the Big East had followed you advice and added ECU/Memphis/UCF/whoever, every semi-decent program would be racing for the door right now. The Big East football schools seem pretty happy with each other, which is critical in these situations.

The BE already discussed adding Kansas and Kansas St last year. There's a world of difference between adding Memphis and adding former Big12 schools. If those schools are available the BE should send an invite.

My only hesitation is that it might give Comcast or ESPN an exit from a big contract if Kansas or Kansas St ever leave for some reason.

 

[uconNYC]

I think ideal scenario for us and college football (in terms of rivalries) would be:

ACC North: BCU, UConn, Syracuse, Pitt, WVU, Maryland, VTech, UVA
ACC South: NCState, UNC, Duke, WF, GT, USF, FSU, Miami

Big 16 East: Rutgers, PSU, OSU, Indiana, Purdue, Notre Dame, Michigan, MSU
Big 16 West: Northwestern, Illinois, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa, Nebraska, Missourri, Kansas

SEC East: Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, Clemson, Tennessee, Vanderbilt, Kentucky, Louisville
SEC West: Alabama, Auburn, MSU, Mississippi, LSU, Arkansas, Texas A&M, Baylor/TCU/Houston

PAC 16 Southwest: Texas, Texas Tech, OU, OSU, Colorado, Utah, Arizona, ASU
PAC 16 Pacific: UCLA, USC, Cal, Stanford, Oregon, OSU, Washington, WSU

Unfortunately Cincy, KState, ISU and potentially Baylor and TCU get screwed in this alignment.

 

[kibblesnbits]

Penn State got a huge donation to start their program, and fans of the other four power B1G schools aren't happy they have to play them either. Hockey is irrelevant to expansion. At those four schools though, especially MN, MI, and WI, it's a huge deal. They're starting their own conference more because they can make money off of it. Most of the fans don't like it, and college hockey fans in general are up in arms that the conference exists at all, because they're losing existing rivalries with former conference mates who are not b1g teams. PSU will take a while to get better, but they've got the financial backing for it. UConn has repeatedly shown they have no interest in improving their hockey program. If UConn were to join the B1G, I wouldn't be shocked if the other hockey members try to keep them out of the conference to keep from diluting the quality of play.

I think you are way off base. The Big 10 schools currently play in conferences that include Lake Superior State, Ferris State, Northern Michigan, Michigan Tech, etc. Some of those schools have interesting hockey histories but they haven't been competitive in 20 years or more. Using your logic the power schools would have been campaigning to eject a significant percentage of their current leagues, but they didn't. Furthermore, they could have broken off years ago with a few other powers such as North Dakota, Denver and one or two others to form a super conference - but it was only when Penn State upgraded and forced their hand by Big 10 charter (all schools must play in the Big 10 if at least six members offer a sport) that they made the move. Even power schools want to play in a league with a range of talent. No coach wants to recruit a powerhouse team and lose his job because he finished .500 in a small conference where everyone else is similarly loaded.

Would UConn having a hockey team be a dominant consideration in possible admittance to the Big 10? Absolutely not. Would the university be expected to significantly upgrade both the program (i.e. a full load of 18 scholarships) and the rink if accepted? Of course. However, would the possibility of further expansion of a minimally sized Big 10 hockey league be a plus in the UConn column? Yes.

 

[Adios]

Thank you, knibblenbits. College hockey is also very popular in the Northeast, as well. I am sure the B1G schools would love to penetrate the college hockey market here.

If the B1G invites Rutgers and Syracuse too, we'll be just fine with rivalries.

 

[brasssbonanzaa]

I think you are way off base. The Big 10 schools currently play in conferences that include Lake Superior State, Ferris State, Northern Michigan, Michigan Tech, etc. Some of those schools have interesting hockey histories but they haven't been competitive in 20 years or more. Using your logic the power schools would have been campaigning to eject a significant percentage of their current leagues, but they didn't. Furthermore, they could have broken off years ago with a few other powers such as North Dakota, Denver and one or two others to form a super conference - but it was only when Penn State upgraded and forced their hand by Big 10 charter (all schools must play in the Big 10 if at least six members offer a sport) that they made the move. Even power schools want to play in a league with a range of talent. No coach wants to recruit a powerhouse team and lose his job because he finished .500 in a small conference where everyone else is similarly loaded.

Would UConn having a hockey team be a dominant consideration in possible admittance to the Big 10? Absolutely not. Would the university be expected to significantly upgrade both the program (i.e. a full load of 18 scholarships) and the rink if accepted? Of course. However, would the possibility of further expansion of a minimally sized Big 10 hockey league be a plus in the UConn column? Yes.

Your point makes sense, and it also doesn't. UConn has basically had a standing invitation to Hockey East for a long time, but (admittedly under the former AD) invested absolutely nothing in the program. In fact, in a somewhat recent review of the needs of each individual program's needs, the hockey program was listed as, in so many words, not needing anything more. Coach Marshall has been around forever and has one of the worst records in the nation. Freitas is a woeful D1 facility and does not satisfy HE's 5k capacity for all new members, instituted after UVM's admission.

You listed every bad team in the CCHA and WCHA that the B1G teams play. These interesting histories, Lake State has two national titles, NMU has a title, and Tech has three titles. Granted MTU's are from the 70's and before, and Lake State and Northern haven't won since the '90s, those were VERY legitimate programs when the CCHA was created, and back in the early days of the WCHA, Tech was a major player.

What you have to realize is that the rationale among hockey programs is not the same as in other sports, college hockey programs, coaches, and fans are very, very weird, and VERY much self-centered traditionalists. The B1G schools don't even want to be in the same conference as each other! So these somewhat has-been programs are long time opponents, so they like to keep that tradition. Secondly, the reason your super conference scenario never occurred in the past is it would've meant the demise of MANY college hockey programs. If the 5 B1G's paired off with DU, CC, NoDak, Duluth, and one or two others, maybe ND, the remaining schools likely would not be able to survive. As it stands now, many programs are on life support including former national champion Bowling Green. The creation of the B1G may end up causing the disbanding of a few more programs who can't make it without playing in a conference with the big boys to be able to recruit, sell tickets, and maintain the program.

So to loop back around to UConn, were we to join the B1G, yes, the other schools would not like that from a hockey perspective. UConn would have to pour LOTS of money into the program, build a new arena, get a new coach, and upgrade quickly in a conference where they'd be so overmatched, it'd be sad to watch on the ice. I 100% guarantee you fans of the other programs would hate the idea of UConn joining in hockey. As for the coaches, they all want to play the same regional teams they've been playing forever, not travel 1,500 miles to play someone who won't help their Pairwise ranking (how NCAA at-large bids are determined). They'd prefer to travel to Houghton or Marquette to pick up those supposedly easy wins.

There are no "markets" in hockey, TV revenue is more or less zero, and it's not based on markets. ESPN is basically forced to show the Frozen Four as part of their deal with the NCAA to get rights to other more high profile events such as football and basketball games. College hockey is all regional television, save for a few ESPNU and CBS College broadcasts. Though there is reportedly a minor deal with Versus in the works. Nonetheless, markets and TV revenue are almost entirely irrelevant to college hockey conference structure. So the B1G schools don't have any desire to crack the eastern markets. They know the east - meaning northern New England and parts of New York - are dominated by Hockey East, namely the Big Four, and some of the better ECAC schools. There is virtually no market here for anyone to watch a Minnesota-Ohio State hockey game. Hockey occurs mainly on Friday and Saturday nights, so the majority of people interested in flipping it on casually would be watching their own team play live or otherwise on TV. I'm one of those select few here who'd be interested in watching some random western college hockey game, but I'm a BU season ticket holder, so I'm either at Agganis or at the road venue, so I can't see that game. The other "select few" are in the same boat as me with their respective teams.

Were UConn to make a miraculous upgrade, the others would likely be indifferent, and only concerned that the program didn't hold them back or dilute the conference. Ohio State already sucks, Penn State won't be good for a long time, so it's basically the big four and their two annoying little brothers right now. I'm not sure they're looking for a third, even more annoying, little brother who's a 4 hour plane ride away. And I guarantee you, if given the opportunity, the hockey coaches and fans from Minnesota and Wisconsin would rather be playing their longtime rivals North Dakota, Denver, and Colorado College every year than Penn State, Ohio State, and UConn. When Wisconsin held their outdoor hockey game, their fans complained that the game was against Michigan and not Minnesota or North Dakota. You can't approach college hockey in the same way you do football. Hockey fans and guys around the programs are stubborn traditionalists.

 

[Vowelguy]

Your point makes sense, and it also doesn't.

I like hockey, but it's irrelevant to the discussion here. And if it were, CT would be a more attractive option than some others since it puts the league in hockey-rich New England.

And by the way, the reason the B1G formed a hockey conference is to add more product for its TV network. Increasing conference membership adds more games for TV and fewer non-conference opponents that the teams have to find, which will probably be their biggest difficulty in the next few years since their conference size shrinks from 11/12 to 6.

 

[kibblesnbits]

Your point makes sense, and it also doesn't. UConn has basically had a standing invitation to Hockey East for a long time, but (admittedly under the former AD) invested absolutely nothing in the program. In fact, in a somewhat recent review of the needs of each individual program's needs, the hockey program was listed as, in so many words, not needing anything more. Coach Marshall has been around forever and has one of the worst records in the nation. Freitas is a woeful D1 facility and does not satisfy HE's 5k capacity for all new members, instituted after UVM's admission.

You listed every bad team in the CCHA and WCHA that the B1G teams play. These interesting histories, Lake State has two national titles, NMU has a title, and Tech has three titles. Granted MTU's are from the 70's and before, and Lake State and Northern haven't won since the '90s, those were VERY legitimate programs when the CCHA was created, and back in the early days of the WCHA, Tech was a major player.

What you have to realize is that the rationale among hockey programs is not the same as in other sports, college hockey programs, coaches, and fans are very, very weird, and VERY much self-centered traditionalists. The B1G schools don't even want to be in the same conference as each other! So these somewhat has-been programs are long time opponents, so they like to keep that tradition. Secondly, the reason your super conference scenario never occurred in the past is it would've meant the demise of MANY college hockey programs. If the 5 B1G's paired off with DU, CC, NoDak, Duluth, and one or two others, maybe ND, the remaining schools likely would not be able to survive. As it stands now, many programs are on life support including former national champion Bowling Green. The creation of the B1G may end up causing the disbanding of a few more programs who can't make it without playing in a conference with the big boys to be able to recruit, sell tickets, and maintain the program.

So to loop back around to UConn, were we to join the B1G, yes, the other schools would not like that from a hockey perspective. UConn would have to pour LOTS of money into the program, build a new arena, get a new coach, and upgrade quickly in a conference where they'd be so overmatched, it'd be sad to watch on the ice. I 100% guarantee you fans of the other programs would hate the idea of UConn joining in hockey. As for the coaches, they all want to play the same regional teams they've been playing forever, not travel 1,500 miles to play someone who won't help their Pairwise ranking (how NCAA at-large bids are determined). They'd prefer to travel to Houghton or Marquette to pick up those supposedly easy wins.

There are no "markets" in hockey, TV revenue is more or less zero, and it's not based on markets. ESPN is basically forced to show the Frozen Four as part of their deal with the NCAA to get rights to other more high profile events such as football and basketball games. College hockey is all regional television, save for a few ESPNU and CBS College broadcasts. Though there is reportedly a minor deal with Versus in the works. Nonetheless, markets and TV revenue are almost entirely irrelevant to college hockey conference structure. So the B1G schools don't have any desire to crack the eastern markets. They know the east - meaning northern New England and parts of New York - are dominated by Hockey East, namely the Big Four, and some of the better ECAC schools. There is virtually no market here for anyone to watch a Minnesota-Ohio State hockey game. Hockey occurs mainly on Friday and Saturday nights, so the majority of people interested in flipping it on casually would be watching their own team play live or otherwise on TV. I'm one of those select few here who'd be interested in watching some random western college hockey game, but I'm a BU season ticket holder, so I'm either at Agganis or at the road venue, so I can't see that game. The other "select few" are in the same boat as me with their respective teams.

Were UConn to make a miraculous upgrade, the others would likely be indifferent, and only concerned that the program didn't hold them back or dilute the conference. Ohio State already sucks, Penn State won't be good for a long time, so it's basically the big four and their two annoying little brothers right now. I'm not sure they're looking for a third, even more annoying, little brother who's a 4 hour plane ride away. And I guarantee you, if given the opportunity, the hockey coaches and fans from Minnesota and Wisconsin would rather be playing their longtime rivals North Dakota, Denver, and Colorado College every year than Penn State, Ohio State, and UConn. When Wisconsin held their outdoor hockey game, their fans complained that the game was against Michigan and not Minnesota or North Dakota. You can't approach college hockey in the same way you do football. Hockey fans and guys around the programs are stubborn traditionalists.

The Hockey East invitation has no relevance when contemplating entry into the Big 10. Certainly the quality of play in HE is high and there would be attractive new games on the schedule against BC and BU, but there is no league payout to justify an upgrade. On the other hand, if the Big 10 made as one of its requirements an upgrade to UConn hockey, the dramatic increase in league payout would make it something to be seriously considered.

As for the Big 10 HL, I think you'll be surprised how quickly Penn State comes up to speed. They are going to have a new gorgeous hockey specific arena (as opposed to tOSU which plays in a massive basketball arena) and an endowment to ensure the program is well funded. It's also not a "basketball school" so winter competition is manageable. It will be interesting as there is really no model for a major university making such a well-funded 0-60 upgrade.

Lastly, the schools I mentioned may be the most obvious examples of "bad teams", but they are far from the only examples of marginally attractive league opponents. Do you really think the Wisconsin fans that weren't excited about playing Michigan outdoors are excited about SCSU, Bemidji, Mankato or Anchorage or that Michigan fans are excited about UN-O, Fairbanks or even Western? There's no great tradition or marketing value with playing those teams. However, they do provide regularly scheduled opposition and, quite frankly, a steady diet of wins for the big boys (at most 1 or 2 will have a good season in any given year). Those are the reasons, not "tradition", that the powerhouses were perfectly happy having them in the same conference "diluting the quality of play." Since none will be eligible to join the Big 10, UMn, UW, UM, et al will have to find someone else they think will play that role. Ideally they'd balance the powerhouses with an equal number of non-powerhouse members.

P.S. There is not a single Big 10 hockey school that is anywhere near 1,500 miles from UConn.

 

[RS9999X]

Howard Baldwin's in the house!

The B1G's next expansion will be driven by hockey! Hockey finally trumps football and basketball to lead to a new era of expansion! Who cares about the AAU credentials. Do they have some Handsome (Hansen) Brothers!

 

[upstater]

Penn State will probably draw lots of fans for hockey.

 

[Waquoit]

The Big 12's demise is looking like a formality. Oh boy, wonder if this sets off the chain of events of super conferences. Can't see how this is good for the Big East. Someone post something to make me feel better. I mean is there a chance UConn gets screwed here?

Not a problem. Sue's got this.

 

[Excalibur]

Waq's sarcasm aside, now is not a good time to be in transition.

 

[Rumrunner]

Who would have thunk that not quite two years later UConn would be in the position that it is today.

 

[Adios]

http://www.cleveland.com/livingston/index.ssf/2010/01/if_the_big_ten_does_expand_it.html According to Ohioans, UConn delivers the Northeast television market better than any other school. But the B1G also is creating a hockey conference that will need members. Out of all the schools available, we give them the best shot at adding another hockey program.

I can see the B1G adding three out of the following four schools: Rutgers, UConn, Syracuse, and Maryland. If the SEC adds Mizzou, the B1G can take all four.

More on UConn to the B1G:

http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/6270202/21083956

"Rating the Big Ten expansion candidates" - Chriss Dodd.

At least I was 66.6% correct. Somewhere around there. Not bad. Maybe I should open a twitter account.

 

[husky210]

I thought Easter Sunday was the day for resurrections

 

[noeynox]

I started reading this thread from page one and thought it was breaking news about Oklahoma and the PAC.

 

[CL82]

At least I was 66.6% correct. Somewhere around there. Not bad. Maybe I should open a twitter account.

Yeah, well you'd have to get that number down to @ 20% to be a viable candidate.