If UCONN/Notre Dame, UCONN/S.C. or UCONN/Maryland traded coaches for 1 game, would opponents win?
- Thread starter KevCav
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The team with Geno would win. The other two... not so sure...
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In game tactics are only part of the puzzle, I think that player development is the larger piece. If Geno had been developing the Baylor, SC, or MD teams over the past few years (and Mulkey, Dawn, or Frese had been developing our players), any of them would probably be a better team than UConn. Don't get me wrong, our players are fantastic, but A) they're facing massive size mismatches against any of those teams and B) player development is just that important. Gabby, Napheesa, and Katie Lou are all night and day from the time they started.
JoePgh
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Interesting question, but I think the premise is incorrect.
If you changed the hypothetical to say, "If Geno had the other school's roster since October 15, and the other coach had the UConn roster since October 15, would the other school's roster beat the UConn roster?", then I think the answer would be yes. Even Geno can't teach them all about offense and defense in a few days; it takes a full season. Not to mention practicing at breakneck speed, and drilling until you can't do it wrong. Of course, that might cause a palace revolt by the players on the other roster who didn't sign up for that and aren't into that. (I recall reading that such a thing actually happened in 1985 when the returning players experienced Geno and CD for the first time.)
But the other factor is the influence of the assistant coaches and the team culture, which is built up over a longer period of time. Along with this is the influence of UConn veterans on the younger players in passing down the culture, so that it isn't solely on the coaching staff to do that. So, really the proper hypothetical would be, "If the other school had Geno / Caroline Doty / Marisa / Shea, and the assistants had been working all summer with the other team's players on individual skills and good habits, and had Geno coaching them on offense and defense starting October 15, would the other team beat UConn's roster?" Then almost certainly the answer would be Yes.
And I would include Tennessee and Duke in the hypothetical as well. The answer in their case would more emphatically be the same.
If you changed the hypothetical to say, "If Geno had the other school's roster since October 15, and the other coach had the UConn roster since October 15, would the other school's roster beat the UConn roster?", then I think the answer would be yes. Even Geno can't teach them all about offense and defense in a few days; it takes a full season. Not to mention practicing at breakneck speed, and drilling until you can't do it wrong. Of course, that might cause a palace revolt by the players on the other roster who didn't sign up for that and aren't into that. (I recall reading that such a thing actually happened in 1985 when the returning players experienced Geno and CD for the first time.)
But the other factor is the influence of the assistant coaches and the team culture, which is built up over a longer period of time. Along with this is the influence of UConn veterans on the younger players in passing down the culture, so that it isn't solely on the coaching staff to do that. So, really the proper hypothetical would be, "If the other school had Geno / Caroline Doty / Marisa / Shea, and the assistants had been working all summer with the other team's players on individual skills and good habits, and had Geno coaching them on offense and defense starting October 15, would the other team beat UConn's roster?" Then almost certainly the answer would be Yes.
And I would include Tennessee and Duke in the hypothetical as well. The answer in their case would more emphatically be the same.
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I believe ND and MD might.
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Factors make this harder to determine: 1. how long does Geno have to get them ready or is this just game time?? 2. Will the players of the mentioned teams follow Geno's directions? 3. How well does Geno know of their limitations?
ND would win if Geno had a week prep and they bought into his schemes. Out of loyalty to the hard work Uc's starting 5 have put into this year---I can't select MD or USC with Geno as a coach.
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This post reminds me of something Bum Phillips, the HC of the Houston Oilers at the time, said in praising Don Shula after losing to him. Some may recall that Bum drawled, "you could take his'n and he could take your'n and he would still beat you".
This could be said of Geno as well, although I believe there are players on a number of the top teams who he would not necessarily want on his team regardless. However given enough time such as a full pre-season and daily practices once the season begins Geno could take any of these teams and beat his bunch. In spite of the fact that many of the coaches recruit the wrong mix of players, Geno is such a superior coach he could take any of those collections of talent and win games they lose.
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See Bum Philips' comments about Don Shula.
"He could take his'n and beat your'n or he could take your'n and beat his'n."
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A lot of folks already said it above: need to think of a longer term involvement, from recruitment to early practices to ass't coaches.
What I chuckle over is the potential irony: Geno would end up with players he might otherwise have liked but didn't recruit because he didn't think they would take to his coaching or who themselves shied away from UConn because they didn't want the intensity. Suddenly, on Oct. 15 they report to practice and find a guy in sweats sipping his coffee who is their worst nightmare!
What I chuckle over is the potential irony: Geno would end up with players he might otherwise have liked but didn't recruit because he didn't think they would take to his coaching or who themselves shied away from UConn because they didn't want the intensity. Suddenly, on Oct. 15 they report to practice and find a guy in sweats sipping his coffee who is their worst nightmare!
I know the wording of my question left a lot to be desired, but I worded it that way because I knew if Geno and CD, etc. had the other team for months, SC, ND, MD and possibly Stanford might edge out UCONN. Physically, ND matched up well, in fact ND might edge out UCONN a few matchups. I think the tiebreaker is that Geno DEMANDS team play. The old, "if you have a shot, but your teammate has a better shot, pass it" I saw ND players taking a fairly good open shot at the expense of another teammate clearly having a higher percentage shot. UCONN players "Pass it Forward" and they know the next time or two, their teammate will help them shine. Katie Lou and Napheesa are roommates as well as teammates and they are music to see on the court.
In addition to getting players he did not recruit because he was not that impressed with them, he might also get the chance to coach players he really wanted, i.e. Lauren Cox, A'Ja Wilson, Asia Durr,
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On a side note, I believe ND players would probably be more accommodating with the coaching switch because they know it might be one of the few times they stood a chance to beat UCONN. ;-)
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So, since Geno and these other players would be playing against "our" UConn players, how would our "thoroughbreds" do being coached and developed by the other coaches?
Muffet?
Brenda?
Dawn?
Jeff?
Holly?
I think our players might do pretty good because they're smart. I pretty much agree GA would find a way to win with most of these other teams, but I do think he intentionally recruits "smart" players. Development time might need to be extended in some cases.
Muffet?
Brenda?
Dawn?
Jeff?
Holly?
I think our players might do pretty good because they're smart. I pretty much agree GA would find a way to win with most of these other teams, but I do think he intentionally recruits "smart" players. Development time might need to be extended in some cases.
Your great comments go against all those naysayers that UCONN only wins because they recruit better players than anyone else. Some of the All-American greats that graduated from UCONN might have not developed as well elsewhere. Coach McCauly of Duke says that Geno should not be able to accept transfers in because UCONN is head and shoulders above everyone else. That is sour grapes. Numerous players have left UCONN and did quite well elsewhere. It has to work both ways! On a related note, Butler is coming along. I believe if she was a little less insecure when she nabs the ball in the paint, going up and scoring might become natural for her. I do like, however, that she finds an open player that scores.
I agree completely.... that is why I think Kyla and Molly are going to get their chance to shine as the season progresses.So, since Geno and these other players would be playing against "our" UConn players, how would our "thoroughbreds" do being coached and developed by the other coaches?
Muffet?
Brenda?
Dawn?
Jeff?
Holly?
I think our players might do pretty good because they're smart. I pretty much agree GA would find a way to win with most of these other teams, but I do think he intentionally recruits "smart" players. Development time might need to be extended in some cases.
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If JPM didn't want Azura to transfer then she should have made her want to stay. And this does mean she supports disqualifying Lexie Brown too, right? Don't get me started...
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That might be a challenge - Deshields marches to her own drummer. Great talent - not so great attitude. She would transfer again if Geno showed up.
I also think Baylor, ND, South Carolina and maybe Stanford would keep Tennessee from breaking into the top 5.
UcMiami
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I think the question diminishes the selection process involved by both players and coaches in choosing to commit to Uconn and in being recruited by Uconn. Uconn recruited some but not all of the players on these teams which defines them as unselfish team oriented players who know how to pass. And the players who chose Uconn identified being subjected to tough love coaching as being the top priority by making their selection. (Storrs, while beautiful really isn't a draw, and Uconn while academically sound is not at the same level as some of the other options.)
I am not saying that both of those qualities do not exist in every one of the players on the other teams, but I suspect it is a lot less universal than it is with Uconn.
The other thing is for all her faults and failures, Chong has stuck it out through three years at Uconn and learned from the coaches, Gabby has made it through two years with a burning desire to prove to the coaches she deserves to get off the bench (see Stanford loss), and earn a few minutes more each week until she plays 40 at ND and is called magnificent. Napheesa and Lou failed numerous times in their first year to impress the coaches and took that as a challenge until they too earned the coaches trust. This team also had all the graduated players who had gone through the same trials and failures to teach them Uconn basketball. And the freshman are beginning to learn those same lessons not just from coaches but from their teammates.
So plugging Geno and staff into another program for a game, for a whole preseason, or even for a year and a preseason does not duplicate what they create at Uconn - the raw material and the environment and the tradition could never be dropped into another team. What happens on one night is the result of 30 years of creation.
The parallel you hear is from the Olympic team - Sue Bird in 2016 is the product of sitting through her first couple of NT experiences behind Dawn and others learning what being a NT team member means. The coaches for those teams change but there is a lot of continuity in the players and a lot of experience they bring to help each new coach. DT telling Geno to stop with the BS and tell the players where to go and what to do - he was just confusing them, is a prefect example.
I am not saying that both of those qualities do not exist in every one of the players on the other teams, but I suspect it is a lot less universal than it is with Uconn.
The other thing is for all her faults and failures, Chong has stuck it out through three years at Uconn and learned from the coaches, Gabby has made it through two years with a burning desire to prove to the coaches she deserves to get off the bench (see Stanford loss), and earn a few minutes more each week until she plays 40 at ND and is called magnificent. Napheesa and Lou failed numerous times in their first year to impress the coaches and took that as a challenge until they too earned the coaches trust. This team also had all the graduated players who had gone through the same trials and failures to teach them Uconn basketball. And the freshman are beginning to learn those same lessons not just from coaches but from their teammates.
So plugging Geno and staff into another program for a game, for a whole preseason, or even for a year and a preseason does not duplicate what they create at Uconn - the raw material and the environment and the tradition could never be dropped into another team. What happens on one night is the result of 30 years of creation.
The parallel you hear is from the Olympic team - Sue Bird in 2016 is the product of sitting through her first couple of NT experiences behind Dawn and others learning what being a NT team member means. The coaches for those teams change but there is a lot of continuity in the players and a lot of experience they bring to help each new coach. DT telling Geno to stop with the BS and tell the players where to go and what to do - he was just confusing them, is a prefect example.
My originally reply went missing. Oh, well. Can't put a finger on it, but I think SC, Maryland, ND, and Stanford (along with UCONN under a "CD" might keep Tennessee out of the top 3 - even with Geno.
By the way, I think highly of Tennessee's Middleton, Nared and Russell, with Russell at my top Tennessee player. Deshields is a distant fourth.
I agree, my friend, Geno is unmatched in basketball coaching at any level.
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I agree with your well thought out commentary... My initial question was ridiculous - I wanted to know if Geno, on the day of the UCONN - ND matchup, could inspire ND to adopt his style of the game enough to beat the Irish led by Muffit for one game. Maybe a little Irish on Irish scrimmage, a little sermon on the Mount, and a little tough love before hitting the floor. Geno would be starting with a core team that only is rivaled by UCONN itself, so he will not be coaching a group of ladies on training wheels. ND does pass but they are not as unselfish as UCONN players across the board. I am from Springfield, MA and have been a UCONN fan for decades, even though I was in the for decades and moved around. Now in Texas, I am NOT a fan of Baylor, UT, or even A&M. My daughter living in CT is not a fan of KLS because she considers her one dimensional, which I disagree. KLS has expanded her game just like KML did. KLS now drives to the basket for layups and is rebounding better. My personal mantra for UCONN is that they "Pass it forward" - which implies they play unselfish ball - no gunners. That's all. Thanks for commenting to my scenarios.
UcMiami
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I always enjoyed that quote as a very good line talking about a very good coach, but the reality in basketball is that coaches don't tend to make a huge difference in games - yes they can make adjustments and Geno is good at that, but he is good at that because of the time he spends drilling his players individually and as a team to be capable of doing multiple things well and to be smart enough to understand the sometimes quite small adjustments and execute them, and compensate elsewhere because of those adjustments. He doesn't call many plays and his PG is likely to call most of the same plays without prompting. In a game like football, where every play has two teams executing designated plays called by the coaches, the coaching is much more impactful, thought the practice part of the process is similarly important.
Geno has I think mentioned that he feels basketball coaches tend to lose more games with in game coaching than they win - and at times has talked of trying not to screw it up and get in the way. (A younger Geno thought differently and coached differently, but he is so much wiser now.
)That is why the 'game day' replacement would actually be a disaster for both teams, unless the coaches basically said - you're on your own, tell me when you are tired and I'll get a sub in. And in that situation, I put my money on the uconn women beating the _____ women led by Geno.
CL82
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Assuming facts not in evidence as to a 'game day' switch. I agree with your point, though.I always enjoyed that quote as a very good line talking about a very good coach, but the reality in basketball is that coaches don't tend to make a huge difference in games - yes they can make adjustments and Geno is good at that, but he is good at that because of the time he spends drilling his players individually and as a team to be capable of doing multiple things well and to be smart enough to understand the sometimes quite small adjustments and execute them, and compensate elsewhere because of those adjustments. He doesn't call many plays and his PG is likely to call most of the same plays without prompting. In a game like football, where every play has two teams executing designated plays called by the coaches, the coaching is much more impactful, thought the practice part of the process is similarly important.
Geno has I think mentioned that he feels basketball coaches tend to lose more games with in game coaching than they win - and at times has talked of trying not to screw it up and get in the way. (A younger Geno thought differently and coached differently, but he is so much wiser now.
That is why the 'game day' replacement would actually be a disaster for both teams, unless the coaches basically said - you're on your own, tell me when you are tired and I'll get a sub in. And in that situation, I put my money on the uconn women beating the _____ women led by Geno.
Great observations. I agree that if Geno and Muffit or coach Staley or Bruno got on planes and switched at game time, the UCONN ladies are more disciplined and have more synergy and would beat any temp Geno team. My gut, however, is that if Geno had a day or two to instill value of unselfish play, it would be a different story.
I remember Brian Hartley in an interview explaining why UCONN excels:
She said our difference is that most teams practice until they get it right.... coach has us ractice until we get it wrong. I.e. the start out doing it wrong, work and repeatedly get it right, then when they finally get it wrong again - wrap it up, 'cuz, you got it!
I remember Brian Hartley in an interview explaining why UCONN excels:
She said our difference is that most teams practice until they get it right.... coach has us ractice until we get it wrong. I.e. the start out doing it wrong, work and repeatedly get it right, then when they finally get it wrong again - wrap it up, 'cuz, you got it!
Tonyc
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When you look at some of the great players in WCBB and then you watch UConn game after game and see how players are developed and how good they become well just isnt any comparison. Even AA's. Listening to many of the WNBA and Olympic players talk about Geno well it doesnt get any better then that. I learned a long time ago that when your good you dont have to tell anybody how good you are, you keep your mouth shut and they will tell everybody how good you are and they will tell it beyond your most wildess dreams.
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