I enjoy Mike Aresco

[whaler11]

Sure. As long as kids are required to go classes, I'm willing to suspend disbelief to view them like full time students who just happen to play a sport. The reality is a little different but not enough to matter to me. If kids don't have to go classes, then they are de facto pros, and I identify with them or care about them as much. That's just my worldview though.

You are really suspending disbelief already.

 

[CL82]

You are really suspending disbelief already.

Yep, but everyone has a point of know return. No classes is it for me.

 

[whaler11]

I didn't think he did so hot. Went up there offering opinions basically. He did take one for the team by showing face to make ludicrous arguments.

Well they wanted his opinions because they wanted someone to say that the TV contracts would collapse if they paid the players.

Spoiler Alert: The man who gave us Tulsa and Tulane even blew that.

 

[noeynox]

Well they wanted his opinions because they wanted someone to say that the TV contracts would collapse if they paid the players.

Spoiler Alert: The man who gave us Tulsa and Tulane even blew that.

Was he effective in his response though? I thought they shot him down when they asked if there is provision in the contracts that changed them if the players were paid.

I hope your right, that he did them a favor and in turn they do him a favor and...make the P6 a reality!!!!

 

[noeynox]

 

[whaler11]

Was he effective in his response though? I thought they shot him down when they asked if there is provision in the contracts that changed them if the players were paid.

I hope your right, that he did them a favor and in turn they do him a favor and...make the P6 a reality!!!!

Any favor is Aresco’s not the AACs.

He answered there is no specific clauses in contracts around paying players impacting the payments. The NCAA lawyers came back with there are broad clauses that could apply.

 

[noeynox]

Any favor is Aresco’s not the AACs.

He answered there is no specific clauses in contracts around paying players impacting the payments. The NCAA lawyers came back with there are broad clauses that could apply.

True. Wouldn't be shocked if he moves up to the next P5 conference commissioner opening and burns the P6 trademark.

 

[champs99and04]

Sure. As long as kids are required to go classes, I'm willing to suspend disbelief to view them like full time students who just happen to play a sport. The reality is a little different but not enough to matter to me. If kids don't have to go classes, then they are de facto pros, and I identify with them or care about them as much. That's just my worldview though.

Has anyone proposed a model in which players would not attend classes? Serious question, because I tend to view things through a similar lens. The pretense of college sports is important to me, whether the actual student-athletes are rich, poor, or somewhere in between. If they're not a part of the campus and the community then it loses a lot of the appeal.

But holding them to a standard doesn't mean holding them to the same standard as other students. Pretending otherwise only puts athletes in a position to squander the educational opportunities they do have (which are important) and develop resentment towards the school once their eligibility expires. If that means extending the timeline for them to earn a degree because they can't manage a full course load while they're flying to Tulsa on a Wednesday night, then do so. The APR model in particular is incredibly flawed and will continue to hinder the value of their education.

Keep making money off of them, fine. Life is not fair and realistically there's no way to pay all of them market value without collapsing the business model and/or encroaching on Title IX. The administrators and NCAA officials will still get their beach houses if they can take a moment to not be idiots about the whole thing.

Just don't insult people by acting like grades and compliance are what makes the money, don't lecture kids who are making your school money because they're struggling academically or emotionally, and don't sell them down the river to appease pretentious academic types who don't get that not everyone's priorities are the same as theirs. In other words, do the opposite of everything UConn has done since Herbst took over.

 

[CL82]

Has anyone proposed a model in which players would not attend classes?

Yes. It is also the logical end point once they are paid, rather than receive a stipend.

 

[whaler11]

Yes. It is also the logical end point once they are paid, rather than receive a stipend.

Those are the exact same things.

Your line isn’t drawn at the reality of academics - it’s drawn at the lip service paid to academics. Which is probably the strangest place to draw the line.

 

[CL82]

Those are the exact same things.

Your line isn’t drawn at the reality of academics - it’s drawn at the lip service paid to academics. Which is probably the strangest place to draw the line.

Nope. A stipend is money that helps with living expenses while going to school. A wage is money you get paid as a full time employee who doesn't have to attend class or maintain a cumulative GPA.

On this issue people will fall on different points on the continuum between DIII and outside employee. I've outlined how I feel about it but it's fine if you feel differently. Wait, you never said what your position is, did you?

 

[whaler11]

Nope. A stipend is money that helps with living expenses while going to school. A wage is money you get paid as a full time employee who doesn't have to attend class or maintain a cumulative GPA.

On this issue people will fall on different points on the continuum between DIII and outside employee. I've outlined how I feel about it but it's fine if you feel differently. Wait, you never said what your position is, did you?

So you don’t care how much the payment is - you just care they pretend to go to class. To anyone who wants to deal with reality that is a bizarre place to draw the line. The strawman you’ve built is eligible for immediate enshrinement in the Boneyard Strawman Hall of Fame.

I honestly don’t care. I’d prefer the players get more of the money than the worthless administrators and useless athletic departments and Mike Arescos but as long as the games are entertaining I’ll watch.

It’s actually sort of entertaining watching people try and defend the status quo because it’s so ridiculous. Free tats gets you suspended in a national scandal while the ‘finest’ Universities in the country siphon off tens of millions of dollars their brands create to Jim Delany because the media pretends he is special.

Posters here will go to the wall defending Mike Aresco - there has to be an ICD-10 code for that disease.

 

[UConnNick]

Nope. A stipend is money that helps with living expenses while going to school. A wage is money you get paid as a full time employee who doesn't have to attend class or maintain a cumulative GPA.

On this issue people will fall on different points on the continuum between DIII and outside employee. I've outlined how I feel about it but it's fine if you feel differently. Wait, you never said what your position is, did you?

I don't get why you think paying the players automatically means they don't have to attend classes and remain academically eligible? Those rules can remain in place as they are now. If you don't, you lose the scholarship and any money being paid.

 

[CL82]

So you don’t care how much the payment is - you just care they pretend to go to class. To anyone who wants to deal with reality that is a bizarre place to draw the line. The strawman you’ve built is eligible for immediate enshrinement in the Boneyard Strawman Hall of Fame.

I honestly don’t care. I’d prefer the players get more of the money than the worthless administrators and useless athletic departments and Mike Arescos but as long as the games are entertaining I’ll watch.

It’s actually sort of entertaining watching people try and defend the status quo because it’s so ridiculous. Free tats gets you suspended in a national scandal while the ‘finest’ Universities in the country siphon off tens of millions of dollars their brands create to Jim Delany because the media pretends he is special.

Posters here will go to the wall defending Mike Aresco - there has to be an ICD-10 code for that disease.

Nah, it is just your selective reading comprehension issue Whaler. (By the way you might want to look up strawman arguments. I don't think that you actually understand what the term means.)

So let me restate my position again for you. I'm okay with kids getting some aid while they attend as full time students as long as they attend class and maintain a passing GPA. Hopefully that isn't still confusing to you. I doubt that I can make it any clearer.

Now where we can find agreement is that much of the NCAA regulation is byzantine and pedantic. I have less issue with not allowing free perks than I do with a bagel being a snack, but a bagel and cream cheese being a meal.

I don't have a problem with administrator earning a salary. It is inescapable even in Olympic sports. The notion that the players should keep most of the money is so contrary to college athletics, it seems inconsistent with you being a fan. I guess if you just view as something to bet on, then it would matter whether the kids are a de facto semi-pro team or not.

 

[CL82]

I don't get why you think paying the players automatically means they don't have to attend classes and remain academically eligible? Those rules can remain in place as they are now. If you don't, you lose the scholarship and any money being paid.

I don't Nick. I just picked out a place on the continuum of possibilities where I'd lose interest. The more players look like outside employees, the less I'm interested. That's just me though.

Here the thing though. Once you pay players a salary, the inevitable argument is going to be "I'm doing my job, why do I have to attend classes." Likewise, the haves will push to pay they player a higher salary than the havenots can afford. It's a slippery slope that will be the death of college athletics, in my opinion.

 

[whaler11]

Nah, it is just your selective reading comprehension issue Whaler. (By the way you might want to look up strawman arguments. I don't think that you actually understand what the term means.)

So let me restate my position again for you. I'm okay with kids getting some aid while they attend as full time students as long as they attend class and maintain a passing GPA. Hopefully that isn't still confusing to you. I doubt that I can make it any clearer.

Now where we can find agreement is that much of the NCAA regulation is byzantine and pedantic. I have less issue with not allowing free perks than I do with a bagel being a snack, but a bagel and cream cheese being a meal.

I don't have a problem with administrator earning a salary. It is inescapable even in Olympic sports. The notion that the players should keep most of the money is so contrary to college athletics, it seems inconsistent with you being a fan. I guess if you just view as something to bet on, then it would matter whether the kids are a de facto semi-pro team or not.

The guy who has dreamed up a world where college athletes don’t attend college is going to lecture about what a strawman is.

You live in an alternate universe where you believe that players in revenue sports at major colleges today are being educated because the schools file grades that keep them eligible.

Spoiler Alert: These have been defacto semi pro teams for decades. That’s what is so hilarious about the line you’ve drawn: You don’t care if they actually go to class - you care if they uphold the charade they go to class.

And yeah the games are just entertainment and part of that is betting on them - do you think UConn/Syracuse on Saturday exists for some greater truth? If tomorrow everyone woke up and there was no gambling on televised sports - the value of every college conference and professional league would take a nosedive towards zero.

But you root for Jim Delany to get $20 million a year while the football players concuss themselves into bolivian and leave school less able to contribute to society than when they entered. Horray for useless administrators!

 

[whaler11]

If you actually care about educating students the last thing you’d support is college athletics.

UConn is going to send 20 student athletes to Texas for 5 days later this week to play meaningless soccer games.

If you wanted to build a case that forming soccer teams to play games against other universities was a valid extracurricular activity - you’d really have to get creative for making a case for spending tens of thousands of dollars to fly 1,500 miles when there are hundreds of schools within the driving radius of a Prius.

There is no logical argument that can claim to care about academics/education and supports Divison I athletics. It’s like saying your two favorite baseball teams are Yankees and the Red Sox.

 

[CL82]

The guy who has dreamed up a world where college athletes don’t attend college is going to lecture about what a strawman is.

You live in an alternate universe where you believe that players in revenue sports at major colleges today are being educated because the schools file grades that keep them eligible.

Spoiler Alert: These have been defacto semi pro teams for decades. That’s what is so hilarious about the line you’ve drawn: You don’t care if they actually go to class - you care if they uphold the charade they go to class.

And yeah the games are just entertainment and part of that is betting on them - do you think UConn/Syracuse on Saturday exists for some greater truth? If tomorrow everyone woke up and there was no gambling on televised sports - the value of every college conference and professional league would take a nosedive towards zero.

But you root for Jim Delany to get $20 million a year while the football players concuss themselves into bolivian and leave school less able to contribute to society than when they entered. Horray for useless administrators!

Nah, I don't lecture about it. I just find it amusing when you use the phrase Stawman argument (which you do quite a bit ever since I called you out on it... it's kind of cute, I guess) since it is your go to move.

But I can explain it to you, if you really need me to:

Here let me give you an example. This is strawman argument:

what is so hilarious about the line you’ve drawn: You don’t care if they actually go to class - you care if they uphold the charade they go to class

That's pretty much the opposite of what I said. Right?

Here's another one:

But you root for Jim Delany to get $20 million a year while the football players concuss themselves into bolivian and leave school less able to contribute to society than when they entered. Horray for useless administrators!

Please, tell me where I said that silliness. SMH, classic Whaler.

You can't seem to help yourself and when I call you on it you get your knickers all in a bunch. It's funny, sort of, so long as you don't wheel spin on for like 20 posts. That's kind of your MO though right?

So again, my position on payers players is just how I feel. If you're just about having another game to bet on then it won't matter to you. That's fine.

 

[whaler11]

Nah, I don't lecture about it. I just find it amusing when you use the phrase Stawman argument (which you do quite a bit ever since I called you out on it... it's kind of cute, I guess) since it is your go to move.

But I can explain it to you, if you really need me to:
View attachment 34519

Here let me give you an example. This is strawman argument:
That's pretty much the opposite of what I said. Right?

Here's another one:
Please, tell me where I said that silliness. SMH, classic Whaler.

You can't seem to help yourself and when I call you on it you get your knickers all in a bunch. It's funny, sort of, so long as you don't wheel spin on for like 20 posts. That's kind of your MO though right?

So again, my position on payers players is just how I feel. If you're just about having another game to bet on then it won't matter to you. That's fine.

I used to think that you just played stupid as a rehtorical device.

I’ve since learned that you are naive enough to not know that football and basketball players at major schools haven’t gone to class in decades.

When you are 30 years behind the curve I’m sure it is jarring when your cognative dissonance is highlighted.

You stick with that firm line though. Once they stop going to class you stop watching.... I’m torn by which UConn player doing actual academic work would be the most hilarious. Toraino Walker is the most obviously funny to me - but thinking someone your age can picture Earl Kelley participating in class is pure gold.

 

[whaler11]

Kemba Walker: I graduated in three years and have read one book in my life

Cl82: I won’t support this if they aren’t going to class

 

[champs99and04]

Likewise, the haves will push to pay they player a higher salary than the havenots can afford. It's a slippery slope that will be the death of college athletics, in my opinion.

This has always been the case. Skipping the middleman and putting the money directly in the hands of the players will only make the process more transparent.

Poorer schools win when the bigger ones screw up. No matter the model, that will be true. I actually think waiving the one year transfer rule would have a greater effect on competitive balance, because coaches could simply turn smaller programs into their own farm systems. So long as you have their loyalties once they're on campus, college sports will continue to mirror anything else in America - a lot of inequality, yet still enough variance at any given time to produce outliers.

Their fixed 'salaries' would likely be pretty inconsequential to accommodate Title IX and the like. Anything they make beyond that is where the real appetite for change lies - if you can negotiate their market value in plain daylight, it becomes harder for sneaker companies to exploit HS kids by synching their brands to schools. It forces companies to react and invest in places that have been buried by the current model, which might actually lead to a more equitable concentration of talent.

 

[CL82]

Kemba Walker: I graduated in three years and have read one book in my life

Cl82: I won’t support this if they aren’t going to class

Lol.

Whaler: "Golly I guess I don't have a point. Let me make something up that I feel more comfortable attacking."

Really Whaler? Taking shots at Kemba is the best you got?

 

[Palatine]

This has always been the case. Skipping the middleman and putting the money directly in the hands of the players will only make the process more transparent.

Poorer schools win when the bigger ones screw up. No matter the model, that will be true. I actually think waiving the one year transfer rule would have a greater effect on competitive balance, because coaches could simply turn smaller programs into their own farm systems. So long as you have their loyalties once they're on campus, college sports will continue to mirror anything else in America - a lot of inequality, yet still enough variance at any given time to produce outliers.

Their fixed 'salaries' would likely be pretty inconsequential to accommodate Title IX and the like. Anything they make beyond that is where the real appetite for change lies - if you can negotiate their market value in plain daylight, it becomes harder for sneaker companies to exploit HS kids by synching their brands to schools. It forces companies to react and invest in places that have been buried by the current model, which might actually lead to a more equitable concentration of talent.

I am against anything that gives MORE advantage to Alabama.

 

[noeynox]

View attachment 34520
Lol.

Whaler: "Golly I guess I don't have a point. Let me make something up that I feel more comfortable attacking."

Really Whaler? Taking shots at Kemba is the best you got?

I get what you're saying but I think you're being willfully ignorant to the point Whaler is making. Dexter Manley got through college and could not sign his own name to his 1st nfl contract. That kind of stuff still happens today, though maybe they're more subtle about it now. Schools exploit kids like that, and the end result is a conference commissioner can get a 20 million dollar bonus. That is an obscene amount of money to pay one man that promotes "amateurism", and is on record about it being the end of college athletics if it means some of that money goes to the people producing it.

 

[CL82]

I get what you're saying but I think you're being willfully ignorant to the point Whaler is making. Dexter Manley got through college and could not sign his own name to his 1st nfl contract. That kind of stuff still happens today, though maybe they're more subtle about it now. Schools exploit kids like that, and the end result is a conference commissioner can get a 20 million dollar bonus. That is an obscene amount of money to pay one man that promotes "amateurism", and is on record about it being the end of college athletics if it means some of that money goes to the people producing it.

Nah, his argument is, at best, tangential to original point which was me talking about my preference for amateur college sports. That's inherently personal. It's fine if anyone else's preference is different.

I don't tune in on Saturday to watch the AD. I watch the kids play. Their amateurism is a part of what makes the narrative compelling to me, otherwise I'd watch pros play at higher level. The fact that others in the university are paid is entirely irrelevant to that.
It's a different discussion, but if you want I can talk about that.

The kids are getting their education, room and board paid for four (or more) years. That's a pretty significant nut these days. For kids who will go on to play professionally, they're getting world class coaching and training. For kids who won't they are getting a degree that makes them more marketable. That's the trade off, the quid pro quo that they get in exchange for playing a sport (which they likely love) for the university. Not a bad deal, IMO.

I'll respectfully suggest that the argument that someone in a supervisory position is paid more than people in a junior position is sophistry. You see it sometimes in business or publicly held corporations. Yeah you need both the mail room guys and board room guys to function but the market decides their respective salaries. So saying well a conference commissioner got a $20M bonus (who got that?) that should have been divided amongst the players misses the boat in capitalistic society.

(Ironically enough, exactly the same thing happens in Communist systems. "Some animals are more equal than others.")

 

[junglehusky]

So you don’t care how much the payment is - you just care they pretend to go to class. To anyone who wants to deal with reality that is a bizarre place to draw the line. The strawman you’ve built is eligible for immediate enshrinement in the Boneyard Strawman Hall of Fame.

I honestly don’t care. I’d prefer the players get more of the money than the worthless administrators and useless athletic departments and Mike Arescos but as long as the games are entertaining I’ll watch.

It’s actually sort of entertaining watching people try and defend the status quo because it’s so ridiculous. Free tats gets you suspended in a national scandal while the ‘finest’ Universities in the country siphon off tens of millions of dollars their brands create to Jim Delany because the media pretends he is special.

Posters here will go to the wall defending Mike Aresco - there has to be an ICD-10 code for that disease.

ICD 10, or DSM 5?

 

[whaler11]

View attachment 34520
Lol.

Whaler: "Golly I guess I don't have a point. Let me make something up that I feel more comfortable attacking."

Really Whaler? Taking shots at Kemba is the best you got?

I tried to use someone you may have heard of since you seem extremely ignorant about college athletics.

It’s not a shot at him, he went to college to play basketball not read books. You are the one claiming to care about academics - not me.

 

[whaler11]

Nah, his argument is, at best, tangential to original point which was me talking about my preference for amateur college sports. That's inherently personal. It's fine if anyone else's preference is different.

I don't tune in on Saturday to watch the AD. I watch the kids play. Their amateurism is a part of what makes the narrative compelling to me, otherwise I'd watch pros play at higher level. The fact that others in the university are paid is entirely irrelevant to that.
It's a different discussion, but if you want I can talk about that.

The kids are getting their education, room and board paid for four (or more) years. That's a pretty significant nut these days. For kids who will go on to play professionally, they're getting world class coaching and training. For kids who won't they are getting a degree that makes them more marketable. That's the trade off, the quid pro quo that they get in exchange for playing a sport (which they likely love) for the university. Not a bad deal, IMO.

I'll respectfully suggest that the argument that someone in a supervisory position is paid more than people in a junior position is sophistry. You see it sometimes in business or publicly held corporations. Yeah you need both the mail room guys and board room guys to function but the market decides their respective salaries. So saying well a conference commissioner got a $20M bonus (who got that?) that should have been divided amongst the players misses the boat in capitalistic society.

(Ironically enough, exactly the same thing happens in Communist systems. "Some animals are more equal than others.")

In order to enjoy college sports you have built an imaginary fantasyland in your head that is completely detached from reality.

That’s fine - lot’s of people do things like that all tbe time. People ignore the actions of say Mel Gibson because they like his movies. Some people pretend that CTE is a myth so they can watch guilt free on Saturday and Sunday.

You think it makes sense to siphon off tens of millions of dollars from taxpayer funded universities to people like Jim Delany because it lets you pretend they are ‘amateur’.

Stop trying to pass off your twisted logic as reality though - it makes you seem insane.

 

[CL82]

I tried to use someone you may have heard of since you seem extremely ignorant about college athletics.

It’s not a shot at him, he went to college to play basketball not read books. You are the one claiming to care about academics - not me.

I know, so long at the betting line is good, what else matters right?

In order to enjoy college sports you have built an imaginary fantasyland in your head that is completely detached from reality.

That’s fine - lot’s of people do things like that all tbe time. People ignore the actions of say Mel Gibson because they like his movies. Some people pretend that CTE is a myth so they can watch guilt free on Saturday and Sunday.

You think it makes sense to siphon off tens of millions of dollars from taxpayer funded universities to people like Jim Delany because it lets you pretend they are ‘amateur’. [haha another strawman argument you can't help yourself can you?]

Stop trying to pass off your twisted logic as reality though - it makes you seem insane.

Lol, you seem angry. Is it because I pointed out that you didn't understand what a strawman argument is, even though you make them continuously? I wouldn't let it bother you. Hopefully you understand now. Just try to use the phrase correctly in the future, or maybe it's for the best that you just avoid it, if it is confusing to you.

 

[Pudge]

Nah, his argument is, at best, tangential to original point which was me talking about my preference for amateur college sports. That's inherently personal. It's fine if anyone else's preference is different.

I don't tune in on Saturday to watch the AD. I watch the kids play. Their amateurism is a part of what makes the narrative compelling to me, otherwise I'd watch pros play at higher level. The fact that others in the university are paid is entirely irrelevant to that.
It's a different discussion, but if you want I can talk about that.

The kids are getting their education, room and board paid for four (or more) years. That's a pretty significant nut these days. For kids who will go on to play professionally, they're getting world class coaching and training. For kids who won't they are getting a degree that makes them more marketable. That's the trade off, the quid pro quo that they get in exchange for playing a sport (which they likely love) for the university. Not a bad deal, IMO.

I'll respectfully suggest that the argument that someone in a supervisory position is paid more than people in a junior position is sophistry. You see it sometimes in business or publicly held corporations. Yeah you need both the mail room guys and board room guys to function but the market decides their respective salaries. So saying well a conference commissioner got a $20M bonus (who got that?) that should have been divided amongst the players misses the boat in capitalistic society.

(Ironically enough, exactly the same thing happens in Communist systems. "Some animals are more equal than others.")

I agree.

And part of the Energy of being a College Football Fan is watching a young man develop from age 18 to 22, in basketball or football, and rooting for them. And not caring that "he feeds his family/he is making a living" aspect. They play for the joy of the game and to get better. Exploit their God-given athleticism on a big stage. That is different than Pro sports.