Hurley on next year's team

[tzznandrew]

Our lack of offensive rebounding from 2013-2018 was clearly a part of of the reason we struggled.

It was a feature, not a bug. We were far more concerned with getting back and stopping transition buckets.

 

[navery12]

Toolzie I am curious to see what Virginia’s offensive rebounding numbers are in the last 5 years of so. I was under the impression their strategy is to retreat to prevent fast breaks. I could be wrong.

Personally I could not stand how we gave up on offensive rebounds pre Hurley.
To me is is indicative of lack of motivation , heart and coaching.
I actually think Hurley’s teams have to show a lot more in that area. Particularly Polley.

The last 5 years their OREB was ranked 150, 234, 272, 281, 144. So at best average and usually close to worst in the country

 

[HuskyHawk]

Yes you can.

It is 2019. Every intelligent coach in America is recruiting to put 4+ shooters o the floor.

Long shots = long rebounds. Much easier to get offensive boards.

Also, analytics show that offensive rebounding isn't nearly as important.as stopping the transition against most teams. Sending 2 or 3 back and not crashing is a good thing.

Also important to think of personnel. I would never tell Vital to not crash from the perimeter. He has a real knack for the ball.

Yes, this is the trend. NBA especially. You’ll see most teams retreat on the shot and not even go for offensive rebounds. But, those teams have very efficient shooters. They don’t miss all that often and yes, get some long rebounds.

There’s a real question as to whether college teams have the ability to play that way on a consistent basis. Nova did with their last NC team, with an extraordinary level of talent. Their sixth man was a first round pick. Honestly, thinking back 2014 UConn played that way. Stifling half court D, and never allowed transition. They didn’t get many offensive boards.

On the other hand. Anybody who showed up right now with the kind of post game that the Ewing Georgetown teams had would be all but unstoppable by these modern teams. They’d rebound and score inside almost at will. Look at the leap USF made last year. To my eye test they did it by going old school and being bigger and more physical than everyone they played, even though their skill and talent level was low. There are lots of ways to win. Shooters are in great demand. Traditional post players are currently undervalued.

 

[ctchamps]

Tom Moore’s QU teams were consistently top 15 in offensive rebounding percentage, too. I think we’ll continue to improve in this category.

Edit: 8 straight years (09-16) QU was top 10 in KenPom offensive rebounding percentage.

2011: 18-11
2012: 15-16
2013: 20-12
2014: 15-15
2016: 9-21
2017: 10-21

This is Tom's record over the last six seasons at Quinnipiac. When taken in combination with Ken Pom's numbers on offensive rebounding percentage combined with the numbers for Virginia this season the argument can be made that Chief is overstating the importance of offensive rebounding as a must have.
It's a potential for winning games, depending on many other factors.

Although it is the ideal it will be rare that a team can have strengths at every aspect of the game and no weaknesses. Outside of an elite (perhaps cheating) few, most coaches will try to recruit players that they believe will give them a tactical advantage against other teams because they cannot be assured which of the players they are recruiting will commit.

As an example:
The full court press employed during "The Dream Season" was successful for a variety of reasons. But imo the major reason was Nadov's ability to anticipate and intercept passes when we trapped opposing players. Henefeld was not the most athletic player UConn has had at his position. But he certainly was one of the most cerebral. We have had quicker players since that season. But we never had a cerebral player to complement the quickness of the guards trapping opposing players. Hence the full court press has never been as sucessful.

 

[Mister P]

I’m still old school where I like having the power 4 and true 5 . I agree with Chiefs points and others on the need for rebounding and the recent comment from HuskyHawk.
Control rebounding and you for the most part control offensive time of possession,offensive and defensive second chance opportunity’s,shot attempts, fast break opportunity’s. I think we have decent perimeter play now which will help the inside game. We just need another banger or two.

 

[husky429]

I’m still old school where I like having the power 4 and true 5 . I agree with Chiefs points and others on the need for rebounding and the recent comment from HuskyHawk.
Control rebounding and you for the most part control offensive time of possession,offensive and defensive second chance opportunity’s,shot attempts, fast break opportunity’s. I think we have decent perimeter play now which will help the inside game. We just need another banger or two.

Good luck losing then

35% 3 point shooter. = pretty good
53% 2 point shooter = close to excellent

Worth the same amount of points come game time. Much easier to win with shooters on the perimeter.

 

[HuskyHawk]

I’m still old school where I like having the power 4 and true 5 . I agree with Chiefs points and others on the need for rebounding and the recent comment from HuskyHawk.
Control rebounding and you for the most part control offensive time of possession,offensive and defensive second chance opportunity’s,shot attempts, fast break opportunity’s. I think we have decent perimeter play now which will help the inside game. We just need another banger or two.

I’m of the Bill Belichick school. Build a team that can play any way you need to, in order to win the game. Dominate a smaller team with a post game, shot blocking and board work, sure. Press,trap and run, sure. Bomb away from 3 and play great half court D, sign me up. Exploit the matchups. Versatile players are the key to that, and Akok is ideal in that regard. If Sid could shoot and dribble a little better, he’d be devastating against the average 6’2 guard. Precious has that game already.

The challenge teams like Cinci have in the tournament is that they aren’t versatile. They run into a bad matchup for their style, or refs unfriendly to their style and they are done. Look at what success we had late in the year feeding Josh. Even with a meh perimeter game and no true PF, teams weren’t equipped to stop it. Throw out a front line of Josh, Akok and Precious and good luck to the opposing D in stopping that.

 

[husky429]

I’m of the Bill Belichick school. Build a team that can play any way you need to, in order to win the game. Dominate a smaller team with a post game, shot blocking and board work, sure. Press,trap and run, sure. Bomb away from 3 and play great half court D, sign me up. Exploit the matchups. Versatile players are the key to that, and Akok is ideal in that regard. If Sid could shoot and dribble a little better, he’d be devastating against the average 6’2 guard. Precious has that game already.

The challenge teams like Cinci have in the tournament is that they aren’t versatile. They run into a bad matchup for their style, or refs unfriendly to their style and they are done. Look at what success we had late in the year feeding Josh. Even with a meh perimeter game and no true PF, teams weren’t equipped to stop it. Throw out a front line of Josh, Akok and Precious and good luck to the opposing D in stopping that.

These types of players are 1 and done. We don't have that option. Develop a team identity, recruit to it, and get really good with it.

See texas tech and virginia.

 

[ToolzieFan]

It was a feature, not a bug. We were far more concerned with getting back and stopping transition buckets.

It's clear that outstanding offensive rebounding was a key component of our success under Calhoun. But it's fair to wonder if that game has changed enough since then (lots of threes, more versatile big men) that being an elite offensive rebounding team is less important. Could it be generally true that teams who are effective at shooting don't need as many offensive rebounds, while teams who shoot poorly need to crash the boards more? Maybe someone who has followed basketball analytics longer than me knows better. I suppose whatever strategy/skill set gets you the most points per possession is best.

 

[intlzncster]

It's clear that outstanding offensive rebounding was a key component of our success under Calhoun. But it's fair to wonder if that game has changed enough since then (lots of threes, more versatile big men) that being an elite offensive rebounding team is less important. Could it be generally true that teams who are effective at shooting don't need as many offensive rebounds, while teams who shoot poorly need to crash the boards more? Maybe someone who has followed basketball analytics longer than me knows better. I suppose whatever strategy/skill set gets you the most points per possession is best.

Was thinking similarly. If you're a poor shooting team, it's a difficult strategy to employ. Offensive possessions with an outside shot become practically turnovers.

Hard to win with little perimeter shooting in today's game. One of the main reasons KO's teams weren't very successful, is that he failed to recruit superior outside shooters.

 

[StepbackCity]

Hurley doesn’t want anyone to leave. Had one transfer in 6 years at URI. Wants to have a culture of brotherhood, can’t do that while forcing kids out or letting them go.

 

[ToolzieFan]

Was thinking similarly. If you're a poor shooting team, it's a difficult strategy to employ. Offensive possessions with an outside shot become practically turnovers.

Hard to win with little perimeter shooting in today's game. One of the main reasons KO's teams weren't very successful, is that he failed to recruit superior outside shooters.

Yeah, common sense a team either has to score really efficiently, or get more shots than their opponents, whether that comes through offensive rebounding or having a large, positive turnover differential. KO's post-Shabazz teams didn't get easy shots within the offense, and to make it worse, we never got second chance opportunities. With more talent, buy-in from players, and better health, let's hope we can improve in all aspects of our offense.

 

[NJHoops]

I’ve run down Hurley’s history with transfers before, but there was a guy he brought to URI who had committed to him at Wagner. He played some but was eventually declared medically ineligible at URI (history of concussions- two in off court “incidents,” one in high school and one in college). The original plan was for him to stay on with a scholarship, but not a roster spot, and assist with team-related duties. This never completely materialized, as he was deemed eligible by another school’s medical staff and went there to play.

 

[ToolzieFan]

I’ve run down Hurley’s history with transfers before, but there was a guy he brought to URI who had committed to him at Wagner. He played some but was eventually declared medically ineligible at URI (history of concussions- two in off court “incidents,” one in high school and one in college). The original plan was for him to stay on with a scholarship, but not a roster spot, and assist with team-related duties. This never completely materialized, as he was deemed eligible by another school’s medical staff and went there to play.

If Diarra is unable to play due to his knees, I hope we work out something like this with him. He seems like a solid dude and good teammate who has run into some bad luck, and I don't think we want to burn any bridges with him. For his sake, I'd obviously rather he be healthy, but if he is going to be in constant pain, I don't want him to jeopardize his future well-being.. I can't wait until we all know next year's roster so every thread will stop turning into a debate about the merits of forcing players out, etc.

 

[superjohn]

I’ve run down Hurley’s history with transfers before, but there was a guy he brought to URI who had committed to him at Wagner. He played some but was eventually declared medically ineligible at URI (history of concussions- two in off court “incidents,” one in high school and one in college). The original plan was for him to stay on with a scholarship, but not a roster spot, and assist with team-related duties. This never completely materialized, as he was deemed eligible by another school’s medical staff and went there to play.

Staff seems to be working on something like that.

 

[UconnU]

Staff seems to be working on something like that.

I wonder what the plan for Whaley is. He’s definitely not a 4 in Hurley’s offense. I guess beef him up a little and use him as a backup center?

 

[Chief00]

Yes, this is the trend. NBA especially. You’ll see most teams retreat on the shot and not even go for offensive rebounds. But, those teams have very efficient shooters. They don’t miss all that often and yes, get some long rebounds.

There’s a real question as to whether college teams have the ability to play that way on a consistent basis. Nova did with their last NC team, with an extraordinary level of talent. Their sixth man was a first round pick. Honestly, thinking back 2014 UConn played that way. Stifling half court D, and never allowed transition. They didn’t get many offensive boards.

On the other hand. Anybody who showed up right now with the kind of post game that the Ewing Georgetown teams had would be all but unstoppable by these modern teams. They’d rebound and score inside almost at will. Look at the leap USF made last year. To my eye test they did it by going old school and being bigger and more physical than everyone they played, even though their skill and talent level was low. There are lots of ways to win. Shooters are in great demand. Traditional post players are currently undervalued.

Some good points - Chief still thinks it’s a simple game. If you aggressively go after offensive rebounds that can slow the transition too - even if the opponent gets the rebound. What you don’t want is guys standing around in the corners when a shot goes up. Just a GPS map exercise - they have the longest to go to stop the fast beak at the rim.

 

[Chief00]

2011: 18-11
2012: 15-16
2013: 20-12
2014: 15-15
2016: 9-21
2017: 10-21

This is Tom's record over the last six seasons at Quinnipiac. When taken in combination with Ken Pom's numbers on offensive rebounding percentage combined with the numbers for Virginia this season the argument can be made that Chief is overstating the importance of offensive rebounding as a must have.
It's a potential for winning games, depending on many other factors.

Although it is the ideal it will be rare that a team can have strengths at every aspect of the game and no weaknesses. Outside of an elite (perhaps cheating) few, most coaches will try to recruit players that they believe will give them a tactical advantage against other teams because they cannot be assured which of the players they are recruiting will commit.

As an example:
The full court press employed during "The Dream Season" was successful for a variety of reasons. But imo the major reason was Nadov's ability to anticipate and intercept passes when we trapped opposing players. Henefeld was not the most athletic player UConn has had at his position. But he certainly was one of the most cerebral. We have had quicker players since that season. But we never had a cerebral player to complement the quickness of the guards trapping opposing players. Hence the full court press has never been as sucessful.

Q had an unusual thing happen though - they switched conferences - and did not have the star power to compete at a higher level. Tom still got them to battle - but that along with a couple recruiting misses at the wrong time spelled trouble. The change in conference competition was an unusual circumstance. Given that though, Tom did not make excuses.

 

[Walker11]

The best and 3rd best offensive rebounding teams in the NBA recently finished Game 1. Both teams play 4 out. Food for thought, @Chief00

 

[Scrutineer]

Akok looks like Slenderman.

And that's after three months in Sal's program. Some guys just don't have the body type to bulk up.

 

[Scrutineer]

2011: 18-11
2012: 15-16
2013: 20-12
2014: 15-15
2016: 9-21
2017: 10-21

This is Tom's record over the last six seasons at Quinnipiac. When taken in combination with Ken Pom's numbers on offensive rebounding percentage combined with the numbers for Virginia this season the argument can be made that Chief is overstating the importance of offensive rebounding as a must have.
It's a potential for winning games, depending on many other factors.

Although it is the ideal it will be rare that a team can have strengths at every aspect of the game and no weaknesses. Outside of an elite (perhaps cheating) few, most coaches will try to recruit players that they believe will give them a tactical advantage against other teams because they cannot be assured which of the players they are recruiting will commit.

As an example:
The full court press employed during "The Dream Season" was successful for a variety of reasons. But imo the major reason was Nadov's ability to anticipate and intercept passes when we trapped opposing players. Henefeld was not the most athletic player UConn has had at his position. But he certainly was one of the most cerebral. We have had quicker players since that season. But we never had a cerebral player to complement the quickness of the guards trapping opposing players. Hence the full court press has never been as sucessful.

"But imo the major reason was Nadov's ability to anticipate and intercept passes when we trapped opposing players."
So true. You could see it coming when we'd trap someone on the sideline just past mid-court and yet we haven't had players capable of that anticipation since Henefeld. Is it that the players just don't understand how limited the options are when an opposing player is trying to pass out of a double team?

 

[AdamaNation]

Unless you have a Dre, which we don’t, Chief doesn’t buy the 4 out and 1 in thing.
For our talent you need two dudes regularly going to the boards on offense. Often one creates disruptions and the other gets the ball. Poor offensive rebounding was one reason we lost last season. In several key games our opponents killed us in that category. We have no one guy who is going to change that statistic that makes us lose.

Offensive rebounds..... this guy.
Ever hear if providence?

Joking. We so need to be a traditional 2 big 3 swing/small line up. We won our rings that way. Yes 14 featured going small ( Steve Kerr sure rhyme bited) but we are a defensive, shot blocking ,defensive rebounding , guard manufacturing plant. Yes some May change but the formula is there.

 

[RayIsTheGOAT]

And that's after three months in Sal's program. Some guys just don't have the body type to bulk up.

A 6'10" lanky high school basketball prospect doesn't just turn into Shaq after three months in a weight training program.

Sal's plan with Akok was to start off with small basic weight lifting, and work up gradually from there. You have to build muscles patiently and cautiously, especially with young basketball players. My understanding is you have to build a foundation for muscle growth before you can actually make noticeable gains.
I think Akok and Carlton will be adequately built come November.

 

[Walker11]

And that's after three months in Sal's program. Some guys just don't have the body type to bulk up.

I am guessing you are either naturally very strong, or have never lifted weights. That's not how it works...

 

[Hurleyman216]

Look at the teams in the Elite Eight - As I recall, they all had guys who could rebound and defend in the paint.

Looks like Chief needs to post less on the BY and watch more college hoops. Literally every team in the Final 4 aside from Michigan State started lineups that played 4 out, 1 in and even Mich St. played that style for at least 50% of the game. You might want to take a seat on this argument because having 4 guys capable of hitting a 3 is way more valuable than offensive rebounding and if you knew anything about analytics you would know this.