How big is the gulf b/w UConn and everyone else?

[jimazee]

Four friends ...all ex basketball players and sports fans and pretty neutral on WCBB teams... and I attended local HS girls game, to watch one's daughter play.

During the night, I asked them individually if they watched the UC-SC game. Two did for a little while, a third turned it on at beginning of second half... each said they turned it off when they saw the blowout. The fourth didn't watch at all.

Far from scientific of course but anecdotal vis a vis while UConn fans enjoy watching the 'excellence' many others don't.

 

[Husky25]

Four friends ...all ex basketball players and sports fans and pretty neutral on WCBB teams... and I attended local HS girls game, to watch one's daughter play.

During the night, I asked them individually if they watched the UC-SC game. Two did for a little while, a third turned it on at beginning of second half... each said they turned it off when they saw the blowout. The fourth didn't watch at all.

Far from scientific of course but anecdotal vis a vis while UConn fans enjoy watching the 'excellence' many others don't.

There's a difference between watching excellence and being entertained by a competitive well played game.

 

[JoePgh]

I think the two times when general interest in WCBB peaked were: (1) in the 1995-2004 era, when every game between UConn and Tennessee was a heavyweight bout where either team might plausibly win, but both would show star quality; and (b) the Skylar Diggins era at Notre Dame, when the UConn-ND games had the same qualities and the same expectations.

UConn fans might hate to admit it, but the post-Diana, pre-Maya era in UConn basketball (which was also the Candace Parker era) was also a good one for fan interest, since some "upstarts" like Maryland and Baylor won NC's during that period, and Rutgers briefly became nationally elite, although Tennessee remained the favorite in most games.

The era that began with the 90-game win streak and has continued to the present has been less interesting to most fans, except during the period when Notre Dame had a realistic chance to beat UConn.

I still think there is a chance for serious competition among the top 3 or 4 teams in the next few years. South Carolina should continue to be good (A'ja has a chance to be a Parker-level superstar, I think); Notre Dame will certainly be good; Tennessee will have Deshields and Russell as a nucleus for a good team; and Baylor will have the majority of the top Texas recruits (most likely). UConn will certainly continue to be excellent. If all of these teams can be good enough that one cannot predict with assurance the outcome of a game between any of them, that would be great for WCBB.

 

[UcMiami]

jimazze - if the one whose daughter was playing in that game was really into her development as a basketball player he should have been sitting with her from opening tip to final buzzer discussing every aspect of the game.

Sorry don't mean to rag on you and your friends, but if girls' parents aren't taking their sports endeavors seriously, who else should?

Yes competition would be good, but I would rather have domination than have Uconn not try for perfection

 

[Beemer]

Odd, I don't recall it being bad for wcbb when teams like Old Dominion, Louisiana Tech & Tennessee dominated the sport with undefeated seasons, multiple national titles and several All-American players. They were just setting the bar higher for the other schools. But somehow UConn in achieving the same things is bad for the sport. Am I missing something here?

 

[Tonyc]

This is a great thread. The biggest difference between UConn and everybody else is their commitment to team and not individual. Their passing and looking and creating plays to get their team mates open is beyond anything any team in WCBB does. Many teams have great players who get the ball and create their own shot. At UConn the team runs plays and help create each others shots. They look for each other and play to each others strengths . Even if other teams get good players they don't play as a team, they depend on individual talents and those individuals to make plays instead of having the team involved to make the play. Then there is UConns defense. While Geno doesn't hesitate to sit his star ala Stewart Tuck Stokes etc other coaches have a fear of doing that. That's where discipline is missing. To be a winner at any team sport. You have to make a total commitment, you have to give up where you are mentally and put the team first, and you have to be willing to change to get better. You pay a huge price to be great team, and you pay it in advance...and .....there are no guarantees.

 

[JoePgh]

My interest in WCBB dates from about 1995 when UConn challenged Tennessee. I don't believe that OD or La Tech had periods of decade-long dominance where everyone else was clearly competing for second place. Tennessee may have had that from the late 80's to the mid-90's, but after 1995 no one knew who would win when they played UConn. Since 2008-2009 and except for ND during the Diggins years, everyone basically has known that UConn should/will beat all comers, and it is a huge and rare surprise when they don't. (OK, Baylor with Griner and Sims was also expected to give UConn a game.)

As far as I know, that situation has never previously existed in the sport for such a long period of time.

 

[EricSD]

This is a great thread. The biggest difference between UConn and everybody else is their commitment to team and not individual. Their passing and looking and creating plays to get their team mates open is beyond anything any team in WCBB does. Many teams have great players who get the ball and create their own shot. At UConn the team runs plays and help create each others shots. They look for each other and play to each others strengths . Even if other teams get good players they don't play as a team, they depend on individual talents and those individuals to make plays instead of having the team involved to make the play. Then there is UConns defense. While Geno doesn't hesitate to sit his star ala Stewart Tuck Stokes etc other coaches have a fear of doing that. That's where discipline is missing. To be a winner at any team sport. You have to make a total commitment, you have to give up where you are mentally and put the team first, and you have to be willing to change to get better. You pay a huge price to be great team, and you pay it in advance...and .....there are no guarantees.

This is actually a great point - and something that maybe isn't overlooked, but certainly isn't mentioned as much as it should be.

Go back and watch the SC game - especially in the first half when Mitchell scored 11 of her points early on before the face guarding. Fast break, 3 point shot, and then it was all individual effort. Not saying there's anything wrong with a little one on one action, but not when there's a lack of team play and passing. In the first half, when the score was 18-18, both Dozier and Welch scored because of gaps in UCONN's defense. That's when a player should take the ball to the hoop, like Mo did several times.

But if you look at SC's numbers - 9 assists on 26 made baskets. Contrast that to UCONN's 18 assists on 31 baskets. I understand that a lot of their points came on O-boards, and therefore no assist, but even a casual observer could watch the game and realize UCONN runs more team oriented offense than SC. I think only ND (and Stanford) comes close to running team offense like UCONN does.

 

[chrissaran]

rocky rococo, do you realize that UCLA rarely traveled East to play the likes of North Carolina and other top schools? They would only face some of those teams in the tournament. Better chance of dominating if you're not playing the best teams every year. No question they were dominant, but how dominant if they had to play more of the best teams.

 

[JoePgh]

This is actually a great point - and something that maybe isn't overlooked, but certainly isn't mentioned as much as it should be.

Go back and watch the SC game - especially in the first half when Mitchell scored 11 of her points early on before the face guarding. Fast break, 3 point shot, and then it was all individual effort. Not saying there's anything wrong with a little one on one action, but not when there's a lack of team play and passing. In the first half, when the score was 18-18, both Dozier and Welch scored because of gaps in UCONN's defense. That's when a player should take the ball to the hoop, like Mo did several times.

But if you look at SC's numbers - 9 assists on 26 made baskets. Contrast that to UCONN's 18 assists on 31 baskets. I understand that a lot of their points came on O-boards, and therefore no assist, but even a casual observer could watch the game and realize UCONN runs more team oriented offense than SC. I think only ND (and Stanford) comes close to running team offense like UCONN does.

I agree that UConn runs team-oriented offense more effectively than SC or anyone else except Notre Dame. I think SC tried to be team-oriented in their offense but were stymied by UConn's defense.

What stood out to me in the game (and the announcers commented on it also) was the number of 1-on-1 clearout plays that UConn ran on offense. Not just Moriah on her defenders (why was there no help? -- because UConn's other players had effectively spread the floor), but also Morgan against their rather immobile big defenders, and Stewie against A'ja.

I continue to believe that Geno has learned something (to his great credit) from coaching the USA team, which is that when you have the talent to beat opponents 1-on-1, then you need to allow your team to go for it, and even set up plays to make it happen. He did that occasionally 5 or 10 years ago, but I don't think the offense of those years would look like what we saw Monday night.

I don't think Dawn expected that offensive strategy from Geno. I think she expected a lot of clever passing and backdoor plays, and she prepared her team for that. In fact, there was an attempted backdoor to Stewie early in the game that A'ja effectively covered, and it didn't work. The one that did work (near the end of the first half) involved a backscreen to box A'ja in so she couldn't defend it. I wouldn't be surprised if Dawn tweaked Geno after the game about whether she had succeeded in teaching him some WNBA-style offense over the summer.

 

[bertieboy]

Sad but somewhat true, we can only hope what was supposed to start changing a decade ago will do so soon. As much as nobody on this site would want to admit it this is not good for the game or our team.

I don't see how losing more games is good for our team or women's basketball in general.

 

[HGN]

Bottom line , its not UConn's fault that other teams has not risen to the occassion . What is UConn suppose to do , lose or lower its standard of excellence? Other schools must raise their level of play , not UConn having to lower theirs to close the gap.

What we are watching at UConn in WCBB may or may not be a dynasty , and as we all know all dynasties come to an end. So let's just all enjoy what we are seeing at UConn before it all goes away some day and UConn finds itself on the other end of the gap. And for certain I don't think most of us would like that.

 

[EricSD]

No spitting match Eric, but what I said went right over your head. If you think a canyons gap between teams in any sport at any level is good, you are simply enamored with your team with no interest for the sport itself.
Yes I always want our team to win but the lack of competition is hurting the bottom line. That being interest in the sport. Geno has said the same in the past, maybe you would accept it from him. It would be a smaller pill.

No it didn't go right over my head. I just thought yours was a silly, uninformed comment, gave you some proof to the contrary, and then enjoyed your nonsensical reply. But thanks for trying to tell me what kind of fan I am and what interest I have in the sport overall.

 

[Suebird10fan]

Some discussion in this thread of UCLA/Wooden vs. UConn/Geno.

One of the amazing things about the UCLA 88 game streak is that they DID have a lot of close games. A whole bunch where the margin was less than ten. Does this make them less dominant? I suppose, but in my mind it magnifies what Wooden accomplished.

 

[jimazee]

jimazze - if the one whose daughter was playing in that game was really into her development as a basketball player he should have been sitting with her from opening tip to final buzzer discussing every aspect of the game.

Sorry don't mean to rag on you and your friends, but if girls' parents aren't taking their sports endeavors seriously, who else should?

Yes competition would be good, but I would rather have domination than have Uconn not try for perfection

Gee, thanks ...Funny, I/we never would have thought of this...(despite Dad's success in athletics both past and current... he and friends still regularly push many younger players in 3 on 3 despite their advanced ages) He/we include and are also friends of coaches. As is often the case, things aren't that simple. People have lives. A full 'explanatory' response of the situation would reveal more personal info than appropriate for the experts on the Internet and, (as this post), would stray from the OP/topic...which is the perennial/recurring question of is UConn 'too good' for WCBB.

I gave a little detail of the setting in my post to demonstrate that the people were legitimate basketball fans, including girls' games. The point was that despite this, they had not watched much of the UConn-SC game and I shared why and how it related to the OP.

Since I'm on a soap box I'll also address an earlier post by coco. I get it that there is a difference between excellence and a close/competitive game. I've watched pretty well every Huskies game since the early days of Jenn Rizzotti. In fact the difference between watching 'for excellence' (or 'perfection') was the underlying point of my post, and my attempt to illustrate how different people react to each with UConn. Thanks for making it simpler for those who didn't 'get it'.

BTW, the girl we were watching is one of the best, hardest, working, accomplished players on a top team in the area. Yes, she plays AAU too...pretty well. She's doing just fine...not quite UConn class but she'll play at the next level.

Thanks for your interest in UConn basketball and contributions to the Boneyard

 

[Geno-ista]

I think you have to look at prime rotation and not 'entire roster'. And the answer is probably ... yes:
Stewart: ranked #1 by a pretty solid margin.
Jefferson: ranked #2 behind Stewart
KML: Ranked #1
Tuck: Ranked #6 (?) having been a #1 before injury in HS.
Nurse: Ranked - NA as Canadian/International player rankings are pretty meaningless but a two year starter for the Canadian National team.

Stokes - HS AA ranked top 15
Chong - WBCA AA, Parade and NHSCA player of the year. Ranked way down.
Williams - #14 HG hurt because of 2 years lost to injury.

Not sure anyone matches up with that and it isn't getting any better next year for the rest of the country.

UC- if we took Tenn, So Car & N Dame's starting 7- would they really b that different? Heck duke had Gray and Liz Williams- 2-1's? Lindsay Allen was pt gd rt behind Mo Jeff i think! Tenn's Sr pt gd was # 1 in country. Would be interesting. I don't think we are 30 PTs better than the other top programs- I could be wrong. I appreciate your detailed RSVP!

 

[Woof 101]

I don't really buy that, out of personal experience. I became a basketball fan when Red Auerbach was with the Celts and John Wooden was at UCLA. Both of those dynasties were more dominant than UConn wbb, and inspired me with the idea of excellence.

I like that, you enjoy 50 point blow out after blow out and you think the men's game of decades ago should be compared to what is trying to be accomplished now in the woman's game.
No spitting match here but if you do not see all the empty seats at many of our home games expected to be blow outs......I don't want to slander...

Four friends ...all ex basketball players and sports fans and pretty neutral on WCBB teams... and I attended local HS girls game, to watch one's daughter play.

During the night, I asked them individually if they watched the UC-SC game. Two did for a little while, a third turned it on at beginning of second half... each said they turned it off when they saw the blowout. The fourth didn't watch at all.

Far from scientific of course but anecdotal vis a vis while UConn fans enjoy watching the 'excellence' many others don't.

Kudos for getting it.

I don't see how losing more games is good for our team or women's basketball in general.

Bertie you quoted my post did you read it? I NEVER said UCONN should lose more games. My point was 10 to 15 years ago many thought and honestly felt the woman's game would become more competitive by now.

I am not looking for us to lose but rather have some competition, with more teams in the mix. If you think a 25 point blow-out between the two top teams in the sport is good for it, well, you have that right. I enjoyed this game as much as anyone but hoped for something better from the opponent.

Competition sells a sport which sells tickets. Yes our girls sell to answer others here but there are many more empty seats at the predicted blow-out games. Yes the UCONN woman bring a larger crowed at any school they play to see them and it is well deserved. If that schools fans thought it had a chance of competing they would all be sell-outs.

I would be willing to bet you and many more could could figure out who is going to be in the final four with accuracy with a lot of season and tourneys to go. This fact does not generate interest in the sport. No malice just say'n.
Go HUSKIES !!!

 

[rocky rococo]

I just said that there's nothing new or unusual about a single team dominating for years in hoops, and the teams that do so tend to elevate the game. Was Michael Jordan "bad for the game"?

 

[uconnfan68]

Actually, the only two championship games I've watched in their entirety in the past 15 years or so were the 2006 (duke/md) and the 2011 (tamu/nd) games.... but then again... Im a bit different I would have watched 2013 Baylor vs UCONN..... but Louisville messed up those plans.

They are the ones I missed.

 

[CocoHusky]

Woof,
no malice here either. It took me a while to understand what you were saying and here is why I disagree.
The nature of the competitive person is to press an advantage. You don’t see any good boxers deciding to take a few rounds off because they won last five rounds. Why? Because he might get his head knocked off. The equivalent of a boxer getting his head knocked off for Geno is not losing a game. For him a few minutes of not giving max effort is equal to getting his head knocked off-See the yanking of Stewie and Morgan. To quote Geno at the beginning of the season (Geno was really paraphrasing General Patton) “we are not trying to defend anything, we are attacking the rest of the country”. Empty seats, full house, nationally televised, parents only in the stands, at the local YMCA , coming off a loss, does not matter to the architect of this dynasty- you will always get UCONN max effort. That max effort is what determines the margin of victories of most UCONN games.
Empty seats is a WCBB problem, unrelated to UCONN dominance in my opinion.

 

[hoophuskee]

Next year there will be at least 4 beasts. And as long as each of the 4 teams are true beasts - then even though let's say UConn has more talent - in a one-and-done one game setting --any of the 4 are a huge threat. A great team has a better chance to play "out-of-their-minds." And unlike a good team playing out of their minds, a great team like UCONN can eventually wear them down. When you are great -- much tougher for just one game - to not have that team play super great for 1 game. Because it is in their capability to do so.

UCONN
ND
USC
Tenn

 

[Suebird10fan]

Next year there will be at least 4 beasts. And as long as each of the 4 teams are true beasts - then even though let's say UConn has more talent - in a one-and-done one game setting --any of the 4 are a huge threat. A great team has a better chance to play "out-of-their-minds." And unlike a good team playing out of their minds, a great team like UCONN can eventually wear them down. When you are great -- much tougher for just one game - to not have that team play super great for 1 game. Because it is in their capability to do so.

UCONN
ND
USC
Tenn

Baylor will be better than TN next year.

 

[hoophuskee]

Sad but somewhat true, we can only hope what was supposed to start changing a decade ago will do so soon. As much as nobody on this site would want to admit it this is not good for the game or our team.

Ohh so this is where it all started.

Well count me in the mass of one that doesn't give a darn about "what's good for the game." When I'm 80 -- I'll have memories of watching unbelievable basketball. I won't give a hoot whether the seats were filled or not. There could be one fan at the game and if it is me jumping up and down - I am going to love it. I'm blessed to watch such supreme basketball play and the dominance is a beautiful thing to watch. How sickening to watch your team just throw away a game playing god-awful-sloppy when they could have won it easily.

In general, our Huskies stomp on the opposition's throat. Of which we can infer even the coaches and players say inward "I give up." As of right now it's so beautiful to watch the great hoop/dominant play. Today for example, 4-5 passes leading to a layup. Supreme ball movement. Three's reigning down. Just beautiful. The ball movement. The cutting - the shooting.

Instead I'm supposed to watch that crap in the men's game of weeks ago between Kentucky vs South Carolina when either team was disgusting from the floor and wound up having like 15 assists total combined in one or two overtimes with God-Awful free throw shooting? I'm supposed to pretend to like that garbage? IMO there are certain fans that are more "close game fans" than fans of "basketball."

 

[hoophuskee]

Baylor will be better than TN next year.

Okay - I know Tenn will be tremendous next year with Diamond coming. Then add Baylor you got 5.

 

[Woof 101]

Woof,
no malice here either. It took me a while to understand what you were saying and here is why I disagree.
The nature of the competitive person is to press an advantage. You don’t see any good boxers deciding to take a few rounds off because they won last five rounds. Why? Because he might get his head knocked off. The equivalent of a boxer getting his head knocked off for Geno is not losing a game. For him a few minutes of not giving max effort is equal to getting his head knocked off-See the yanking of Stewie and Morgan. To quote Geno at the beginning of the season (Geno was really paraphrasing General Patton) “we are not trying to defend anything, we are attacking the rest of the country”. Empty seats, full house, nationally televised, parents only in the stands, at the local YMCA , coming off a loss, does not matter to the architect of this dynasty- you will always get UCONN max effort. That max effort is what determines the margin of victories of most UCONN games.
Empty seats is a WCBB problem, unrelated to UCONN dominance in my opinion.

Again no malice but it is probably on me that I think I can say something anyone else would understand. My comment without going into deep blah blah was about the sad state of the game. Nothing I said was to trash the path of our program, team or coaches. That or winning games. You do not understand what I was saying and that is on me.

 

[UcMiami]

UC- if we took Tenn, So Car & N Dame's starting 7- would they really b that different? Heck duke had Gray and Liz Williams- 2-1's? Lindsay Allen was pt gd rt behind Mo Jeff i think! Tenn's Sr pt gd was # 1 in country. Would be interesting. I don't think we are 30 PTs better than the other top programs- I could be wrong. I appreciate your detailed RSVP!

Not too sure how to equate points based on HS but when you look at simple ranks, yes I think some teams are good but not that close, but.
Stewart like Maya and Parker for example are not simply #1 players but so far above the standard #1.
And Uconn has a senior #1, a junior #1 and #2, that were I believe the only '98' ranked players in that year by HG when their rankings were a little more critical, and three year sophomore #6 to go with a freshman off a pretty good Canadian Senior National team that has been playing against the best guards in the world (not college guards) for two years. (Being schooled by Sue and DT before your freshman year is not typical!)
ND has Jewel and a freshman #2 and some others. SC has a #1 freshman, and some nice freshman and sophomores, Duke - has a senior #1 not in the same transformative league as Stewart and some high ranked recruits but no other #1s.

So it is not just ranking but also maturity for the players in question. Moriah as a junior is not the same as a #2 freshman guard - 2 years experience plus the HS skill makes a difference.

Not saying coaching doesn't make a difference, and Uconn does better with better than anyone else ever has! Just that Geno really has been getting really really good HS talent. Don't know how many times other schools have gotten the #1 kid in consecutive years but Geno has done that a few times.

 

[Bayareahusky]

Working on the end of Miami's point..... coaching I think makes all the difference in the world..... just witness Coach P at Duke and Holly at UT..... they have great talent, yet do not develop their players for whatever reason...... Eliz Williams for an overall #1 hasn't shown up for her career essentially, and i do not think that is too tough an assessment..... UT has had several recruits come in recent years who were going to take LVs to the promised land..... Stricklen was supposed to be the "it" person.... Pat Summit sang Massengale's praises to the moon....telling her guards they would see a "real" guard the following year... to the point of guaranteeing her starting slot...... now it is Diamond..... that gal has special talents.... we all know that.... but how is Holly going to develop her.... and perhaps as important... what will she demand of her.....

After Geno and staff, who are far and away the best at coaching top talent, I still like Muffet..... give her the McBrides and Peters' and Achonwas, she knows how to build them.....

 

[cabbie191]

There could be one fan at the game and if it is me jumping up and down - I am going to love it. "

Hoop - this is a bit OT to your comment but also speaks to it. Many years ago, I ran a nature center and had a colleague who was the director of another nature center that was owned by the same non-profit organization as owned mine.

One night Brad arrived at his center to give a presentation on birding, and only one person showed up to hear him speak. A bit awkward to be sure but Brad told the guy that since he came prepared to give his lecture, and since the man came prepared to hear the lecture, why not go ahead with it. The man agreed and Brad did his presentation. And that man was so impressed with it that he became a volunteer and the center's largest financial donor.

Brad did his best despite the circumstances and it paid dividends. And that is exactly why UConn is so dominant right now - they do their best under any and all situations.

 

[hoophuskee]

Hoop - this is a bit OT to your comment but also speaks to it. Many years ago, I ran a nature center and had a colleague who was the director of another nature center that was owned by the same non-profit organization as owned mine.

One night Brad arrived at his center to give a presentation on birding, and only one person showed up to hear him speak. A bit awkward to be sure but Brad told the guy that since he came prepared to give his lecture, and since the man came prepared to hear the lecture, why not go ahead with it. The man agreed and Brad did his presentation. And that man was so impressed with it that he became a volunteer and the center's largest financial donor.

Brad did his best despite the circumstances and it paid dividends. And that is exactly why UConn is so dominant right now - they do their best under any and all situations.

Awesome.

 

[Tonyc]

Why other teams cant compete with UConn is simply this. UConn plays as a unit as a team unit while many other teams trust the ability of their players to go one on one. Many other teams don't play as a team unit they depend on having their players create their own shots. In many instances the rest of the team stands around an watches. Now UConn does develop their team unit to play together with their individual talents, Their passing is quick and crisp. Very little dribbling. Geno is very picky on who he recruits. Number 1 they have to be coachable. If you heard his response to Aja Wilson when she asked Geno what was he looking for in an up and coming player to make the USA team his response was just that. Unselfish, team player who is willing to do what ever it takes for the team including sitting the bench. He continued by saying there are a lot of good players out there that will never play on Team USA. Just like every great golfer cant play every great golf course well, just like every great home run hitter cant hit every pitcher well. That goes for BB players. They sometimes cant play well against certain teams or certain arenas etc. BB is a team sport and many players, parents and coaches feel if they have the best players, tallest players experienced players they can win. They might be able to against less talented teams but not against a team unit.

Right now everybody on UConn is shooting the ball so well that UConn can score as many points as they want, if Geno doesn't call off the dogs. Saniya has her confidence back, Gabby is gifted. This team is shooting the ball better then any team Ive seen in a very long time and they play suffocating defense. UConn is almost impossible to keep up with let alone beat.