HOF tournament thoughts

[UcMiami]

I thought it was very telling that Geno said something about how teams ended up in this tourney, and that some would only play if "guaranteed" two wins. So, if you don't think you can win 2, you say no thanks, and then the organizers have to keep looking until they fill all the slots. I would much rather risk a loss in the early season so that you can fix any issues and be better by the end of the season.

I think what Geno said was 'have a good chance to win two games' not guaranteed - I think what he was saying was it is easier to get three bad teams than two good and two bad teams - A tournament with say Uconn and Stanford would have a hard time getting a third and fourth team because they would only have on game they could likely win vs two loses.

 

[UcMiami]

I don't think getting bombed in a blitz is much of a lesson.

It is if your society pulls together and gets stronger - as England succeeded in doing.

 

[meyers7]

As for the players, I really doubt that any competitive person likes being drubbed, even if they get to see if they can run a few things during the process.

I always liked playing against better competition. Even if I got beat. I imagine most competitive players would feel the same. They really like to test themselves. And geez what competitors wouldn't want to test themselves against the best??

 

[cohenzone]

It is if your society pulls together and gets stronger - as England succeeded in doing.

I think what they learn is that they are glad they aren't playing UConn again. League teams won't be that lucky. If it takes getting blitzed to make a basketball team pull together, there was something missing before the bombs started to fall.

 

[meyers7]

I think what Geno said was 'have a good chance to win two games' not guaranteed - I think what he was saying was it is easier to get three bad teams than two good and two bad teams - A tournament with say Uconn and Stanford would have a hard time getting a third and fourth team because they would only have on game they could likely win vs two loses.

Yep that was exactly it.

 

[EricSD]

One other thing - UCONN has already played PSU, Maryland and Stanford with a game coming up with OSU who traditionally is a top 25 team. BU and SBU are also both generally at the top of their conferences - BU went to the NIT in 2009, 2010 and 2012. SBU went to the sweet 16 of the NCAA's in 2012. It is impossible for UCONN to schedule every single top 25 team every single season. I honestly don't get the whining or complaining a rare few have exhibited. Poor form IMHO.

Really, the only solution, is for UCONN to be less good. We saw top 10 Maryland struggle with a cupcake Drexel. last night. Tennessee has struggled with many unranked teams in the first half. Stanford won a close one over unranked Texas. Louisville needed OT to beat unranked FSU. ND is the only top team I can think of who hasn't won a game by less than 20 except for beating #19 MSU by 19 points.

So, like I said, the solution is to fire Geno and get a coach in there who can't recruit nearly as well so the team is more human and our games closer. Either that, or stop the whining and enjoy the ride like the overwhelming majority of the rest of us. I can just imagine what Geno would say...

"There's no pleasing some people. We are expected to win the NC every year, but how can we accomplish that if we aren't really really good? And then they complain because we beat some good teams by too much." followed by a shaking of his head and running his hand through his shamefully full head of hair...

 

[boontonbomber]

I wouldn't expect the coaches to say much different. As for the players, I really doubt that any competitive person likes being drubbed, even if they get to see if they can run a few things during the process. Given the overall competition, cupcakes are certainly unavoidable for non-league games for the top programs. But having an event where only cupcakes are on the menu isn't that appetizing.

your last line is right on the money. it's amazing the lengths that commenters here will go to to try to make a case for games like these being of value to both the drubber and drubbee.

Well there have been more capable teams in the house and UCONN hasn't had too much trouble. So I don't really think that's a problem. Besides most teams have to play some cupcakes to round out their schedule. If it were a problem for UCONN, it would be the same problem for the other schools.


According to their coaches, yes.


As has been noted, they don't seem to mind. In fact they kind of relish playing UCONN, even if they do get blown out. I don't think their psyches are that fragile. They take other things, other than final score, out of the game. Can they run their offense against the best defense and get decent shots? Can they play even for and extended period of time (time out to time out)? Can they force a shot clock violation on UCONN's offense? Can they make a run (10-5) over a period of time? Lots of little things they can work on against a top notch team. How often do you get that chance?

No one is forcing them to play these games, so they must be getting something out of them.

Well there have been more capable teams in the house and UCONN hasn't had too much trouble. So I don't really think that's a problem. Besides most teams have to play some cupcakes to round out their schedule. If it were a problem for UCONN, it would be the same problem for the other schools.


According to their coaches, yes.


As has been noted, they don't seem to mind. In fact they kind of relish playing UCONN, even if they do get blown out. I don't think their psyches are that fragile. They take other things, other than final score, out of the game. Can they run their offense against the best defense and get decent shots? Can they play even for and extended period of time (time out to time out)? Can they force a shot clock violation on UCONN's offense? Can they make a run (10-5) over a period of time? Lots of little things they can work on against a top notch team. How often do you get that chance?

No one is forcing them to play these games, so they must be getting something out of them.

where have you read that the players themselves "relish" the opportunity to play uconn? i've heard the coaches making an attempt to explain the value to their team. i think they take the uconn games

I guess I have to believe my eyes and the quotes and smiles from a bunch of players after they got their 'humiliating' beat down. I would never stand a chance of hitting a big league fastball, but if you gave me the chance to face a red sox pitched in Fenway Park I would jump at it - and I think you would find a lot of people willing to pay a lot of money to do the same. Or to shoot hoops with Maya Moore, or play a round of golf with ____, or _____ with _____. Well in women's college basketball Uconn is the top of the heap and for a lot of girls who play basketball the next best thing to playing for Uconn is getting to take the court against them even if their team has no chance. If I played one on one with Maya she would whip me 21-0 all day long, but in one game somewhere along the line, I probably would get one shot to go in - and for the rest of my life I would be able to talk about the time I nailed a three against her (and quietly forget the 1000 points she scored over me.)
If you watch any of the weekend games again, focus on the players on the bench. They are into the action and cheering every good play a teammate makes. Or watch when we play some of the other games on our schedule that will also be blow-outs. When we play a Stanford or Maryland who came in expecting to win or at least really challenge down the stretch, you see disappointment and dejection on the bench during the closing minutes - if you watch when we play a BU or Monmouth you probably still see intensity and focus on the action because they are still working for the little victories and not the final score.

i'm curious as to which bunch of players made those quotes that you heard?

 

[pinotbear]

Y'know, sometimes I think we don't give "these guys" - WCBB players - enough credit.

By that I mean, we worry about how players (mostly other teams) will handle a one-sided defeat, we worry about how players will handle criticism, we worry about how players will handle playing time, or mistakes, or injury, or, any number of life's little vicissitudes.

We don't give them enough credit. Sure, there will be some situations that overwhelm them, just as they overwhelm us (or any adult), but, for the most part, "these guys" can handle what the game sends them. They've been playing a long time, at a high level, and they've dealt with most of these obstacles before.

We, as fans, tend to fall into one end of the spectrum or another: either the "fragile flower" extreme, or the "toughen 'em up" extreme. As an aside, I suspect that our reaction to the tribulations that "our girls" face is fraught with projections from our own lives, but, I digress. Back to my point, I think it's more of a continuum, where we should expect less of (and be more protective of) the high-school aged, and be more demanding, and less "kid gloved" of the college student (particularly after freshman year).

Let's remember, by age 18, our society considers you an adult in almost every way. Unless I'm missing something, an 18-yr old can do everything (including military service) except purchase alcohol. By 21, you can do that. So, when we make excuses, or enable, or treat WCBB D1 players like "girls", we aren't always doing them a favor, or giving them enough credit (my original point).

That's not to say we don't care, can't be supportive, can't have empathy or sympathy - we do, that's why we're fans. But, we shouldn't treat them as too weak or incapable of handling adversity.

 

[cohenzone]

One other thing - UCONN has already played PSU, Maryland and Stanford with a game coming up with OSU who traditionally is a top 25 team. BU and SBU are also both generally at the top of their conferences - BU went to the NIT in 2009, 2010 and 2012. SBU went to the sweet 16 of the NCAA's in 2012. It is impossible for UCONN to schedule every single top 25 team every single season. I honestly don't get the whining or complaining a rare few have exhibited. Poor form IMHO.

Really, the only solution, is for UCONN to be less good. We saw top 10 Maryland struggle with a cupcake Drexel. last night. Tennessee has struggled with many unranked teams in the first half. Stanford won a close one over unranked Texas. Louisville needed OT to beat unranked FSU. ND is the only top team I can think of who hasn't won a game by less than 20 except for beating #19 MSU by 19 points.

So, like I said, the solution is to fire Geno and get a coach in there who can't recruit nearly as well so the team is more human and our games closer. Either that, or stop the whining and enjoy the ride like the overwhelming majority of the rest of us. I can just imagine what Geno would say...

"There's no pleasing some people. We are expected to win the NC every year, but how can we accomplish that if we aren't really really good? And then they complain because we beat some good teams by too much." followed by a shaking of his head and running his hand through his hair...

The point is that this was not exactly an appetizing event. We all know that even upper echelon teams often have a problem staying all that close to UConn. Having 3 games planned in 3 days where not a single game is known well before hand as likely to be close after 10 minutes for UConn isn't my idea of great fun. I understand why some teams avoid UConn, and whee some might think there is value to playing them. But what I don't understand is a coach believing getting thrashed by UConn is a positive. Strikes me as them not being that confident in their own capacity to teach how to approach league competition.

 

[cohenzone]

Y'know, sometimes I think we don't give "these guys" - WCBB players - enough credit.

By that I mean, we worry about how players (mostly other teams) will handle a one-sided defeat, we worry about how players will handle criticism, we worry about how players will handle playing time, or mistakes, or injury, or, any number of life's little vicissitudes.

We don't give them enough credit. Sure, there will be some situations that overwhelm them, just as they overwhelm us (or any adult), but, for the most part, "these guys" can handle what the game sends them. They've been playing a long time, at a high level, and they've dealt with most of these obstacles before.

We, as fans, tend to fall into one end of the spectrum or another: either the "fragile flower" extreme, or the "toughen 'em up" extreme. As an aside, I suspect that our reaction to the tribulations that "our girls" face is fraught with projections from our own lives, but, I digress. Back to my point, I think it's more of a continuum, where we should expect less of (and be more protective of) the high-school aged, and be more demanding, and less "kid gloved" of the college student (particularly after freshman year).

Let's remember, by age 18, our society considers you an adult in almost every way. Unless I'm missing something, an 18-yr old can do everything (including military service) except purchase alcohol. By 21, you can do that. So, when we make excuses, or enable, or treat WCBB D1 players like "girls", we aren't always doing them a favor, or giving them enough credit (my original point).

That's not to say we don't care, can't be supportive, can't have empathy or sympathy - we do, that's why we're fans. But, we shouldn't treat them as too weak or incapable of handling adversity.

It isn't that they can't handle adversity, it's that it is scarcely recognizable as "competition". The players certainly rebound quickly. The competition gap isn't UConn's fault, if "fault" is even the right word. Unlike men's D1 hoops where a middle of the pack team can beat or give a mighty scare to the powerhouse teams with some more or less regularity, that is far less the case in women's hoops. By that I mean, a team in the 25-60 rank hardly ever comes within 20 points of a top 10 team. It's a combination of the talent pool not being quite as deep and the coaching not being as typically good. The talent gap is probably the more significant reason for the blow-outs. UConn is a little unusual in that it's dominant teams rarely face a challenge from even the better teams, and UConn itself is hardly ever far from the top of the tree even in a non NC year. Lopsided games are all too common for the top 10 teams. The point is, this was a pretty lame 3 day event unless one is a UConn fan who likes to see the team do pretty much anything it wants to do. To me, the hopeful thing from these games is that Kia Stokes gets the feeling that she can do a lot of what she did this week when she faces better teams.

 

[boontonbomber]

I think what Geno said was 'have a good chance to win two games' not guaranteed - I think what he was saying was it is easier to get three bad teams than two good and two bad teams - A tournament with say Uconn and Stanford would have a hard time getting a third and fourth team because they would only have on game they could likely win vs two loses.

many 4 team tournaments, in fact, are set up so that there are 2 better teams expected to win and play in the final, and the other 2 in the consolation. of course, this was not a tournament; i don't even know what it was supposed to be.

 

[EricSD]

The point is that this was not exactly an appetizing event. We all know that even upper echelon teams often have a problem staying all that close to UConn. Having 3 games planned in 3 days where not a single game is known well before hand as likely to be close after 10 minutes for UConn isn't my idea of great fun. I understand why some teams avoid UConn, and whee some might think there is value to playing them. But what I don't understand is a coach believing getting thrashed by UConn is a positive. Strikes me as them not being that confident in their own capacity to teach how to approach league competition.

You seriously don't understand why a clearly overmatched team would want to play against the best WCBB team on the planet? Or why their players wouldn't relish the chance to do the same? It's obvious, then, why you aren't a coach (or a player).

 

[boontonbomber]

It isn't that they can't handle adversity, it's that it is scarcely recognizable as "competition". The players certainly rebound quickly. The competition gap isn't UConn's fault, if "fault" is even the right word. Unlike men's D1 hoops where a middle of the pack team can beat or give a mighty scare to the powerhouse teams with some more or less regularity, that is far less the case in women's hoops. By that I mean, a team in the 25-60 rank hardly ever comes within 20 points of a top 10 team. It's a combination of the talent pool not being quite as deep and the coaching not being as typically good. The talent gap is probably the more significant reason for the blow-outs. UConn is a little unusual in that it's dominant teams rarely face a challenge from even the better teams, and UConn itself is hardly ever far from the top of the tree even in a non NC year. Lopsided games are all too common for the top 10 teams. The point is, this was a pretty lame 3 day event unless one is a UConn fan who likes to see the team do pretty much anything it wants to do. To me, the hopeful thing from these games is that Kia Stokes gets the feeling that she can do a lot of what she did this week when she faces better teams.

very well stated. the point is, some of us don't see the point in an event set up like this was. i'm hardly convinced by the arguments here of the value for either team.

 

[boontonbomber]

You seriously don't understand why a clearly overmatched team would want to play against the best WCBB team on the planet? Or why their players wouldn't relish the chance to do the same? It's obvious, then, why you aren't a coach (or a player).

exactly. for example, i think i saw some of the boston university players asking for uconn players' autographs after the game. what a thrill for them!

 

[msf22b]

I wouldn't expect the coaches to say much different. As for the players, I really doubt that any competitive person likes being drubbed, even if they get to see if they can run a few things during the process. Given the overall competition, cupcakes are certainly unavoidable for non-league games for the top programs. But having an event where only cupcakes are on the menu isn't that appetizing.

Looking ahead to next season, the problem is magnified.
UConn's recruiting class is already off the charts with the possibility of complete recruit-domination.

And:
The conference loses its two best teams, leaving conference play to resemble this week's mismatches.

Perhaps The U should consider the proposal I made on another thread: Only schedule Non-conference games against the best teams; home and home permitted, even encouraged. I certainly would not object to two ND and two UTenn. and ESPN would be thrilled.
Probably good for the game.

Forget about the lesser programs in OOC; too bad for Jen and the others but if we continue our normal scheduling, next season may be brutal. And something along the lines of my suggestion will be required for the following (potentially equally dominate)
season.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

I'm thinking that we are truly blessed("spoilt") as fans when we can devote time to complaining about a few "elective" games that are not up to competitive snuff (yeah I know plenty of league games will fall in there too). Someone was questioning why less competitive teams would like to go play UConn at home and get thrashed, questioning the veracity of another poster. Well, believe it. Year in and year out players from those squads talk of their team excitement on learning that they have a UConn game and they love the opportunity to experience the crowd and big league nature of it all. I think it was an Oregon player who ran up to Geno before the game and shook his hand to thank him - sort of nonplused Geno. In an article posted yesterday I believe Geno pointed out that a benefit of these tournaments is that they only count as one game against your in season limit of 29 AND UConn does not get to select the opponents. The teams we played all played good positional basketball so the team had to exercise good skills in ball movement. UConn did not get sloppy. Everyone took something away from the exercise.

PS. The other top ten squads had similar experiences last week...for the most part overwhelming lesser foes.

 

[johnnyc]

You seriously don't understand why a clearly overmatched team would want to play against the best WCBB team on the planet? Or why their players wouldn't relish the chance to do the same? It's obvious, then, why you aren't a coach (or a player).

I enjoyed watching those three teams, BU, Monmouth and St. Bon. compete right until the final buzzer and look forward to see how they do in conference play. If they were somehow demoralized by getting blown out by the # 1 team in the country they wouldn't have played hard to the end.

 

[meyers7]

where have you read that the players themselves "relish" the opportunity to play uconn? i've heard the coaches making an attempt to explain the value to their team. i think they take the uconn games

The Horde. Sometimes from the teams local write-ups. Sometimes the announcers have talked to the players. Different places.

 

[meyers7]

The point is that this was not exactly an appetizing event.

Well that may be for some fans. Others, enjoy the blowouts, enjoy watching different things than the final score.

But what I don't understand is a coach believing getting thrashed by UConn is a positive.

Well it's always possible it may not be. But the idea is to get certain things out of it. And if they do, then yes it certainly can be a positive.

 

[meyers7]

very well stated. the point is, some of us don't see the point in an event set up like this was. i'm hardly convinced by the arguments here of the value for either team.

Well that's kind of on you then. Because many of us here do see the value. Geno sees the value. The other coaches seem to see the value. There seem to just be a few of you who don't. hmmmm?

 

[doggydaddy]

Looking ahead to next season, the problem is magnified.
The conference loses its two best teams, leaving conference play to resemble this week's mismatches.

You mean behind Uconn, so it's the 2nd and 3rd best team.

Let's wait a little while before we anoint RU the 3rd best. They have a loss to a weak UMass team, who lost to Central Michigan by 44.

How many conference games were like this past weekend LAST year?

It's easier to count the conference games that weren't.

 

[boontonbomber]

Looking ahead to next season, the problem is magnified.
UConn's recruiting class is already off the charts with the possibility of complete recruit-domination.

And:
The conference loses its two best teams, leaving conference play to resemble this week's mismatches.

Perhaps The U should consider the proposal I made on another thread: Only schedule Non-conference games against the best teams; home and home permitted, even encouraged. I certainly would not object to two ND and two UTenn. and ESPN would be thrilled.
Probably good for the game.

Forget about the lesser programs in OOC; too bad for Jen and the others but if we continue our normal scheduling, next season may be brutal. And something along the lines of my suggestion will be required for the following (potentially equally dominate)
season.

even if uconn could pick up a couple more top 25 type teams, that would help. as of recent rankings, this season's schedule includes only 6 of the top 25. i think that's a low number. seems like from the rest of that top 25 others could be scheduled. in and out of the top 25 there are teams like virginia, lsu, georgia, vanderbilt, texas, kentucky,oklahoma, south carolina, iowa st., michigan, and on and on. some we've played in the past, some not. and what's going to happen with some of the old rivalries? a holiday tournament with uconn, nd, depaul and rutgers would be quite the draw. can it be such a big deal to get a few more of the better teams on the schedule each year? i think that's all that some of the people here asking.

 

[boontonbomber]

The Horde. Sometimes from the teams local write-ups. Sometimes the announcers have talked to the players. Different places.

next time you see a specific example of a player being quoted i would love to be alerted.

 

[boontonbomber]

Well that's kind of on you then. Because many of us here do see the value. Geno sees the value. The other coaches seem to see the value. There seem to just be a few of you who don't. hmmmm?

c'mon, what else do you really expect the coaches to say?

 

[UConnCat]

Funny how some here think it's so easy to schedule other top 25 teams. What makes you think those teams are willing to schedule UConn? As long as UConn and its fans want it it'll just happen, right?

Maybe some here can write to corporate sponsors and ESPN and get them to put together some elite tournaments like the men had in Chicago earlier this month.

 

[doggydaddy]

even if uconn could pick up a couple more top 25 type teams, that would help. as of recent rankings, this season's schedule includes only 6 of the top 25. i think that's a low number. seems like from the rest of that top 25 others could be scheduled. in and out of the top 25 there are teams like virginia, lsu, georgia, vanderbilt, texas, kentucky,oklahoma, south carolina, iowa st., michigan, and on and on. some we've played in the past, some not. and what's going to happen with some of the old rivalries? a holiday tournament with uconn, nd, depaul and rutgers would be quite the draw. can it be such a big deal to get a few more of the better teams on the schedule each year? i think that's all that some of the people here asking.

You make it seem like all Geno has to do is snap his fingers and teams will play them.

2012-13 6 top 25 OOC games
2011-12 5
2010-11 6
2009-10 6
2008-9 2
2007-8 4

It's a pretty normal year compared to the last 4.

 

[Forty_four]

ERIC:
"Really, the only solution, is for UCONN to be less good. We saw top 10 Maryland struggle with a cupcake Drexel. last night. Tennessee has struggled with many unranked teams in the first half. Stanford won a close one over unranked Texas. Louisville needed OT to beat unranked FSU. ND is the only top team I can think of who hasn't won a game by less than 20 except for beating #19 MSU by 19 points".

I will take a game against Texas or Flor State any day of the week, versus games against Monmouth and St Bonnies. They are in BCS conferences with big budgets and are the types of teams that are expected to be somewhat competitive vs UConn. Not mid majors trying to keep their head above water to survive a UConn beat down.

You seriously don't understand why a clearly overmatched team would want to play against the best WCBB team on the planet? Or why their players wouldn't relish the chance to do the same? It's obvious, then, why you aren't a coach (or a player).

I have coached and still play a competitve sport (not BasketBall) and will always accept a competitve challenge, and I will play hard till the final out. But never would I want to play any one the is that superior to me where the outcome is decided before the game is play and then the game is validated with a trouncing. I accept why UConn plays these games but the victim is doing it for a nice payday. The opposing coaches are saying all the politically correct things but if you were to get them alone, I bet they regret playing the actual game.

 

[UConnCat]

You make it seem like all Geno has to do is snap his fingers and teams will play them.

Don't you know that's how it works. I understand UConn tried to schedule UCLA next year while it's on the west coast (vs Stanford and UC Davis) and as a homecoming game for KML but the available dates don't work for UCLA. Oh well.

 

[cohenzone]

Well that's kind of on you then. Because many of us here do see the value. Geno sees the value. The other coaches seem to see the value. There seem to just be a few of you who don't. hmmmm?

I think Geno sees that he can't schedule all that many games against even decent competition because there aren't that many that can stay within 20 points, let alone make him sweat the last possession. He does have to fill out a schedule. Now he has a bigger problem with the nature of the new league. ND is already gone and LVille and Rutgers are about to leave. St Johns, GTown and WV are already gone, teams that gave us the occasional good game. The new league seems to have fewer teams in that category. As we have seen, teams like the Bonnies and UHart, good within their league, are many steps down the ladder. I really think he doesn't see a lot of value in playing those teams, certainly not that many of them, and for some of them willing to play us, it is one of the rare games that has some monetary value for them. I guarantee you that if folks here were not UConn fans, these games would have zero meaning as a basketball game. Yes, we play really pretty basketball against these teams, but I don't think it particularly advances the team's competitive ability to play a string of them.

The team looks to be a game winning machine for at least the next few years. I agree that this is not UConn's fault, but it is a problem in terms of fan interest in the game. Geno will not stop trying to recruit top talent, and a lot of top kids will want to play for him. What continues to strike me is how willing a lot of schools are to retain mediocre women's team coaches where they never would for the men. Whether that's because there aren't that many good women's coaches, I don't know. All I know is that guys like Bruno, Perreta and Landry get attention but not that much success relative to their supposed coaching ability.

 

[meyers7]

next time you see a specific example of a player being quoted i would love to be alerted.

I'll try to remember.