HOF tournament thoughts

[BRS24]

I thought it was very telling that Geno said something about how teams ended up in this tourney, and that some would only play if "guaranteed" two wins. So, if you don't think you can win 2, you say no thanks, and then the organizers have to keep looking until they fill all the slots. I would much rather risk a loss in the early season so that you can fix any issues and be better by the end of the season.

 

[meyers7]

It does give UConn the chance to run stuff without a lot of resistance and to boost confidence. That's all for the good so long as it doesn't fall apart when a more capable opponent is in the house. History tells us, it rarely falls apart on Geno's watch.

Well there have been more capable teams in the house and UCONN hasn't had too much trouble. So I don't really think that's a problem. Besides most teams have to play some cupcakes to round out their schedule. If it were a problem for UCONN, it would be the same problem for the other schools.

For the victims, because that is more what they are in these mismatches, maybe it helps them when they play within their own leagues, but I wonder how much. No question playing league opponents will be worlds easier after UConn, but do they end up playing better because of the experience?

According to their coaches, yes.

A 20 point drubbing isn't that horrible. When it gets to be more than 40, and was likely predicable to be when the non-league game was scheduled, it's kind of a drag. Maybe some of the opposing players don't mind, but I'd bet most of them hate it once the beating is underway and they begin to wonder about their own ability. Geez, I hated it when my team was being crushed in a pick-up game.

As has been noted, they don't seem to mind. In fact they kind of relish playing UCONN, even if they do get blown out. I don't think their psyches are that fragile. They take other things, other than final score, out of the game. Can they run their offense against the best defense and get decent shots? Can they play even for and extended period of time (time out to time out)? Can they force a shot clock violation on UCONN's offense? Can they make a run (10-5) over a period of time? Lots of little things they can work on against a top notch team. How often do you get that chance?

No one is forcing them to play these games, so they must be getting something out of them.

 

[UcMiami]

Yes, it's up to the others to step up, if they are seeking national status. Most of them have no pretense of that. I'm in the camp of thinking these totally lopsided games are of marginal value to UConn, and of questionable value to the losers and kind of a gyp to the ticket holders. Would you go to a plays where the ending ofen came before the first act was half over? Sadly. top echelon teams don't get a lot of good competition, so a bunch of games are not competitive.It does give UConn the chance to run stuff without a lot of resistance and to boost confidence. That's all for the good so long as it doesn't fall apart when a more capable opponent is in the house. History tells us, it rarely falls apart on Geno's watch.

For the victims, because that is more what they are in these mismatches, maybe it helps them when they play within their own leagues, but I wonder how much. No question playing league opponents will be worlds easier after UConn, but do they end up playing better because of the experience? Is the coaching any better? I thought the Bonnies game was pretty pointless, especially being the third in a 3 part bulldozing where the only doubt in any of the games was how early the walk ons would get in. Way too early as it turned out. A 20 point drubbing isn't that horrible. When it gets to be more than 40, and was likely predicable to be when the non-league game was scheduled, it's kind of a drag. Maybe some of the opposing players don't mind, but I'd bet most of them hate it once the beating is underway and they begin to wonder about their own ability. Geez, I hated it when my team was being crushed in a pick-up game.

I think it gets down to what you expect from a six month season as opposed to a single game - good coaches and good players see it as a progression from first practice to last second to offseason to the next first practice for overlapping four year periods. A pick up game - you lose someone else gets to play the next game and by the time you get back on the courts two of your guys have left and two new players are in the team.
Think back to when Geno was trying to build a doormat of a Uconn team up to something decent. He went out looking for games against good programs so his players could see what a good program and good players looked like up close and personal. And the friendships he developed with some of the coaches that would play a miserable program like Uconn have endured ever since. Turn it around and he goes out and schedules a miserable Oklahoma team home and home so they two can begin the process.
The teams this weekend weren't any better or worse than Hartford some years and no one complains about scheduling them - and Jen skips years when she knows it will not help her team, but most years it is something she wants. I was impressed with the coaches we played this weekend - more impressed than with some of the coaches of 'good' programs we play. They do not have the horses to win, but the ones they do have play pretty decent basketball and do not quit and they can go back and look at the tape and teach those players what went wrong and how to correct it, and what worked and why they should feel good about the system that allowed them to get good shots up against the best players in the land And the defense that boxed out and contested shots.

 

[cohenzone]

Well there have been more capable teams in the house and UCONN hasn't had too much trouble. So I don't really think that's a problem. Besides most teams have to play some cupcakes to round out their schedule. If it were a problem for UCONN, it would be the same problem for the other schools.


According to their coaches, yes.


As has been noted, they don't seem to mind. In fact they kind of relish playing UCONN, even if they do get blown out. I don't think their psyches are that fragile. They take other things, other than final score, out of the game. Can they run their offense against the best defense and get decent shots? Can they play even for and extended period of time (time out to time out)? Can they force a shot clock violation on UCONN's offense? Can they make a run (10-5) over a period of time? Lots of little things they can work on against a top notch team. How often do you get that chance?

No one is forcing them to play these games, so they must be getting something out of them.

I wouldn't expect the coaches to say much different. As for the players, I really doubt that any competitive person likes being drubbed, even if they get to see if they can run a few things during the process. Given the overall competition, cupcakes are certainly unavoidable for non-league games for the top programs. But having an event where only cupcakes are on the menu isn't that appetizing.

 

[cohenzone]

I think it gets down to what you expect from a six month season as opposed to a single game - good coaches and good players see it as a progression from first practice to last second to offseason to the next first practice for overlapping four year periods. A pick up game - you lose someone else gets to play the next game and by the time you get back on the courts two of your guys have left and two new players are in the team.
Think back to when Geno was trying to build a doormat of a Uconn team up to something decent. He went out looking for games against good programs so his players could see what a good program and good players looked like up close and personal. And the friendships he developed with some of the coaches that would play a miserable program like Uconn have endured ever since. Turn it around and he goes out and schedules a miserable Oklahoma team home and home so they two can begin the process.
The teams this weekend weren't any better or worse than Hartford some years and no one complains about scheduling them - and Jen skips years when she knows it will not help her team, but most years it is something she wants. I was impressed with the coaches we played this weekend - more impressed than with some of the coaches of 'good' programs we play. They do not have the horses to win, but the ones they do have play pretty decent basketball and do not quit and they can go back and look at the tape and teach those players what went wrong and how to correct it, and what worked and why they should feel good about the system that allowed them to get good shots up against the best players in the land And the defense that boxed out and contested shots.

I don't think getting bombed in a blitz is much of a lesson.

 

[UcMiami]

I thought it was very telling that Geno said something about how teams ended up in this tourney, and that some would only play if "guaranteed" two wins. So, if you don't think you can win 2, you say no thanks, and then the organizers have to keep looking until they fill all the slots. I would much rather risk a loss in the early season so that you can fix any issues and be better by the end of the season.

I think what Geno said was 'have a good chance to win two games' not guaranteed - I think what he was saying was it is easier to get three bad teams than two good and two bad teams - A tournament with say Uconn and Stanford would have a hard time getting a third and fourth team because they would only have on game they could likely win vs two loses.

 

[UcMiami]

I don't think getting bombed in a blitz is much of a lesson.

It is if your society pulls together and gets stronger - as England succeeded in doing.

 

[meyers7]

As for the players, I really doubt that any competitive person likes being drubbed, even if they get to see if they can run a few things during the process.

I always liked playing against better competition. Even if I got beat. I imagine most competitive players would feel the same. They really like to test themselves. And geez what competitors wouldn't want to test themselves against the best??

 

[cohenzone]

It is if your society pulls together and gets stronger - as England succeeded in doing.

I think what they learn is that they are glad they aren't playing UConn again. League teams won't be that lucky. If it takes getting blitzed to make a basketball team pull together, there was something missing before the bombs started to fall.

 

[meyers7]

I think what Geno said was 'have a good chance to win two games' not guaranteed - I think what he was saying was it is easier to get three bad teams than two good and two bad teams - A tournament with say Uconn and Stanford would have a hard time getting a third and fourth team because they would only have on game they could likely win vs two loses.

Yep that was exactly it.

 

[EricLA]

One other thing - UCONN has already played PSU, Maryland and Stanford with a game coming up with OSU who traditionally is a top 25 team. BU and SBU are also both generally at the top of their conferences - BU went to the NIT in 2009, 2010 and 2012. SBU went to the sweet 16 of the NCAA's in 2012. It is impossible for UCONN to schedule every single top 25 team every single season. I honestly don't get the whining or complaining a rare few have exhibited. Poor form IMHO.

Really, the only solution, is for UCONN to be less good. We saw top 10 Maryland struggle with a cupcake Drexel. last night. Tennessee has struggled with many unranked teams in the first half. Stanford won a close one over unranked Texas. Louisville needed OT to beat unranked FSU. ND is the only top team I can think of who hasn't won a game by less than 20 except for beating #19 MSU by 19 points.

So, like I said, the solution is to fire Geno and get a coach in there who can't recruit nearly as well so the team is more human and our games closer. Either that, or stop the whining and enjoy the ride like the overwhelming majority of the rest of us. I can just imagine what Geno would say...

"There's no pleasing some people. We are expected to win the NC every year, but how can we accomplish that if we aren't really really good? And then they complain because we beat some good teams by too much." followed by a shaking of his head and running his hand through his shamefully full head of hair...

 

[boontonbomber]

I wouldn't expect the coaches to say much different. As for the players, I really doubt that any competitive person likes being drubbed, even if they get to see if they can run a few things during the process. Given the overall competition, cupcakes are certainly unavoidable for non-league games for the top programs. But having an event where only cupcakes are on the menu isn't that appetizing.

your last line is right on the money. it's amazing the lengths that commenters here will go to to try to make a case for games like these being of value to both the drubber and drubbee.

Well there have been more capable teams in the house and UCONN hasn't had too much trouble. So I don't really think that's a problem. Besides most teams have to play some cupcakes to round out their schedule. If it were a problem for UCONN, it would be the same problem for the other schools.


According to their coaches, yes.


As has been noted, they don't seem to mind. In fact they kind of relish playing UCONN, even if they do get blown out. I don't think their psyches are that fragile. They take other things, other than final score, out of the game. Can they run their offense against the best defense and get decent shots? Can they play even for and extended period of time (time out to time out)? Can they force a shot clock violation on UCONN's offense? Can they make a run (10-5) over a period of time? Lots of little things they can work on against a top notch team. How often do you get that chance?

No one is forcing them to play these games, so they must be getting something out of them.

Well there have been more capable teams in the house and UCONN hasn't had too much trouble. So I don't really think that's a problem. Besides most teams have to play some cupcakes to round out their schedule. If it were a problem for UCONN, it would be the same problem for the other schools.


According to their coaches, yes.


As has been noted, they don't seem to mind. In fact they kind of relish playing UCONN, even if they do get blown out. I don't think their psyches are that fragile. They take other things, other than final score, out of the game. Can they run their offense against the best defense and get decent shots? Can they play even for and extended period of time (time out to time out)? Can they force a shot clock violation on UCONN's offense? Can they make a run (10-5) over a period of time? Lots of little things they can work on against a top notch team. How often do you get that chance?

No one is forcing them to play these games, so they must be getting something out of them.

where have you read that the players themselves "relish" the opportunity to play uconn? i've heard the coaches making an attempt to explain the value to their team. i think they take the uconn games

I guess I have to believe my eyes and the quotes and smiles from a bunch of players after they got their 'humiliating' beat down. I would never stand a chance of hitting a big league fastball, but if you gave me the chance to face a red sox pitched in Fenway Park I would jump at it - and I think you would find a lot of people willing to pay a lot of money to do the same. Or to shoot hoops with Maya Moore, or play a round of golf with ____, or _____ with _____. Well in women's college basketball Uconn is the top of the heap and for a lot of girls who play basketball the next best thing to playing for Uconn is getting to take the court against them even if their team has no chance. If I played one on one with Maya she would whip me 21-0 all day long, but in one game somewhere along the line, I probably would get one shot to go in - and for the rest of my life I would be able to talk about the time I nailed a three against her (and quietly forget the 1000 points she scored over me.)
If you watch any of the weekend games again, focus on the players on the bench. They are into the action and cheering every good play a teammate makes. Or watch when we play some of the other games on our schedule that will also be blow-outs. When we play a Stanford or Maryland who came in expecting to win or at least really challenge down the stretch, you see disappointment and dejection on the bench during the closing minutes - if you watch when we play a BU or Monmouth you probably still see intensity and focus on the action because they are still working for the little victories and not the final score.

i'm curious as to which bunch of players made those quotes that you heard?

 

[pinotbear]

Y'know, sometimes I think we don't give "these guys" - WCBB players - enough credit.

By that I mean, we worry about how players (mostly other teams) will handle a one-sided defeat, we worry about how players will handle criticism, we worry about how players will handle playing time, or mistakes, or injury, or, any number of life's little vicissitudes.

We don't give them enough credit. Sure, there will be some situations that overwhelm them, just as they overwhelm us (or any adult), but, for the most part, "these guys" can handle what the game sends them. They've been playing a long time, at a high level, and they've dealt with most of these obstacles before.

We, as fans, tend to fall into one end of the spectrum or another: either the "fragile flower" extreme, or the "toughen 'em up" extreme. As an aside, I suspect that our reaction to the tribulations that "our girls" face is fraught with projections from our own lives, but, I digress. Back to my point, I think it's more of a continuum, where we should expect less of (and be more protective of) the high-school aged, and be more demanding, and less "kid gloved" of the college student (particularly after freshman year).

Let's remember, by age 18, our society considers you an adult in almost every way. Unless I'm missing something, an 18-yr old can do everything (including military service) except purchase alcohol. By 21, you can do that. So, when we make excuses, or enable, or treat WCBB D1 players like "girls", we aren't always doing them a favor, or giving them enough credit (my original point).

That's not to say we don't care, can't be supportive, can't have empathy or sympathy - we do, that's why we're fans. But, we shouldn't treat them as too weak or incapable of handling adversity.

 

[cohenzone]

One other thing - UCONN has already played PSU, Maryland and Stanford with a game coming up with OSU who traditionally is a top 25 team. BU and SBU are also both generally at the top of their conferences - BU went to the NIT in 2009, 2010 and 2012. SBU went to the sweet 16 of the NCAA's in 2012. It is impossible for UCONN to schedule every single top 25 team every single season. I honestly don't get the whining or complaining a rare few have exhibited. Poor form IMHO.

Really, the only solution, is for UCONN to be less good. We saw top 10 Maryland struggle with a cupcake Drexel. last night. Tennessee has struggled with many unranked teams in the first half. Stanford won a close one over unranked Texas. Louisville needed OT to beat unranked FSU. ND is the only top team I can think of who hasn't won a game by less than 20 except for beating #19 MSU by 19 points.

So, like I said, the solution is to fire Geno and get a coach in there who can't recruit nearly as well so the team is more human and our games closer. Either that, or stop the whining and enjoy the ride like the overwhelming majority of the rest of us. I can just imagine what Geno would say...

"There's no pleasing some people. We are expected to win the NC every year, but how can we accomplish that if we aren't really really good? And then they complain because we beat some good teams by too much." followed by a shaking of his head and running his hand through his hair...

The point is that this was not exactly an appetizing event. We all know that even upper echelon teams often have a problem staying all that close to UConn. Having 3 games planned in 3 days where not a single game is known well before hand as likely to be close after 10 minutes for UConn isn't my idea of great fun. I understand why some teams avoid UConn, and whee some might think there is value to playing them. But what I don't understand is a coach believing getting thrashed by UConn is a positive. Strikes me as them not being that confident in their own capacity to teach how to approach league competition.

 

[cohenzone]

Y'know, sometimes I think we don't give "these guys" - WCBB players - enough credit.

By that I mean, we worry about how players (mostly other teams) will handle a one-sided defeat, we worry about how players will handle criticism, we worry about how players will handle playing time, or mistakes, or injury, or, any number of life's little vicissitudes.

We don't give them enough credit. Sure, there will be some situations that overwhelm them, just as they overwhelm us (or any adult), but, for the most part, "these guys" can handle what the game sends them. They've been playing a long time, at a high level, and they've dealt with most of these obstacles before.

We, as fans, tend to fall into one end of the spectrum or another: either the "fragile flower" extreme, or the "toughen 'em up" extreme. As an aside, I suspect that our reaction to the tribulations that "our girls" face is fraught with projections from our own lives, but, I digress. Back to my point, I think it's more of a continuum, where we should expect less of (and be more protective of) the high-school aged, and be more demanding, and less "kid gloved" of the college student (particularly after freshman year).

Let's remember, by age 18, our society considers you an adult in almost every way. Unless I'm missing something, an 18-yr old can do everything (including military service) except purchase alcohol. By 21, you can do that. So, when we make excuses, or enable, or treat WCBB D1 players like "girls", we aren't always doing them a favor, or giving them enough credit (my original point).

That's not to say we don't care, can't be supportive, can't have empathy or sympathy - we do, that's why we're fans. But, we shouldn't treat them as too weak or incapable of handling adversity.

It isn't that they can't handle adversity, it's that it is scarcely recognizable as "competition". The players certainly rebound quickly. The competition gap isn't UConn's fault, if "fault" is even the right word. Unlike men's D1 hoops where a middle of the pack team can beat or give a mighty scare to the powerhouse teams with some more or less regularity, that is far less the case in women's hoops. By that I mean, a team in the 25-60 rank hardly ever comes within 20 points of a top 10 team. It's a combination of the talent pool not being quite as deep and the coaching not being as typically good. The talent gap is probably the more significant reason for the blow-outs. UConn is a little unusual in that it's dominant teams rarely face a challenge from even the better teams, and UConn itself is hardly ever far from the top of the tree even in a non NC year. Lopsided games are all too common for the top 10 teams. The point is, this was a pretty lame 3 day event unless one is a UConn fan who likes to see the team do pretty much anything it wants to do. To me, the hopeful thing from these games is that Kia Stokes gets the feeling that she can do a lot of what she did this week when she faces better teams.

 

[boontonbomber]

I think what Geno said was 'have a good chance to win two games' not guaranteed - I think what he was saying was it is easier to get three bad teams than two good and two bad teams - A tournament with say Uconn and Stanford would have a hard time getting a third and fourth team because they would only have on game they could likely win vs two loses.

many 4 team tournaments, in fact, are set up so that there are 2 better teams expected to win and play in the final, and the other 2 in the consolation. of course, this was not a tournament; i don't even know what it was supposed to be.

 

[EricLA]

The point is that this was not exactly an appetizing event. We all know that even upper echelon teams often have a problem staying all that close to UConn. Having 3 games planned in 3 days where not a single game is known well before hand as likely to be close after 10 minutes for UConn isn't my idea of great fun. I understand why some teams avoid UConn, and whee some might think there is value to playing them. But what I don't understand is a coach believing getting thrashed by UConn is a positive. Strikes me as them not being that confident in their own capacity to teach how to approach league competition.

You seriously don't understand why a clearly overmatched team would want to play against the best WCBB team on the planet? Or why their players wouldn't relish the chance to do the same? It's obvious, then, why you aren't a coach (or a player).

 

[boontonbomber]

It isn't that they can't handle adversity, it's that it is scarcely recognizable as "competition". The players certainly rebound quickly. The competition gap isn't UConn's fault, if "fault" is even the right word. Unlike men's D1 hoops where a middle of the pack team can beat or give a mighty scare to the powerhouse teams with some more or less regularity, that is far less the case in women's hoops. By that I mean, a team in the 25-60 rank hardly ever comes within 20 points of a top 10 team. It's a combination of the talent pool not being quite as deep and the coaching not being as typically good. The talent gap is probably the more significant reason for the blow-outs. UConn is a little unusual in that it's dominant teams rarely face a challenge from even the better teams, and UConn itself is hardly ever far from the top of the tree even in a non NC year. Lopsided games are all too common for the top 10 teams. The point is, this was a pretty lame 3 day event unless one is a UConn fan who likes to see the team do pretty much anything it wants to do. To me, the hopeful thing from these games is that Kia Stokes gets the feeling that she can do a lot of what she did this week when she faces better teams.

very well stated. the point is, some of us don't see the point in an event set up like this was. i'm hardly convinced by the arguments here of the value for either team.

 

[boontonbomber]

You seriously don't understand why a clearly overmatched team would want to play against the best WCBB team on the planet? Or why their players wouldn't relish the chance to do the same? It's obvious, then, why you aren't a coach (or a player).

exactly. for example, i think i saw some of the boston university players asking for uconn players' autographs after the game. what a thrill for them!

 

[msf22b]

I wouldn't expect the coaches to say much different. As for the players, I really doubt that any competitive person likes being drubbed, even if they get to see if they can run a few things during the process. Given the overall competition, cupcakes are certainly unavoidable for non-league games for the top programs. But having an event where only cupcakes are on the menu isn't that appetizing.

Looking ahead to next season, the problem is magnified.
UConn's recruiting class is already off the charts with the possibility of complete recruit-domination.

And:
The conference loses its two best teams, leaving conference play to resemble this week's mismatches.

Perhaps The U should consider the proposal I made on another thread: Only schedule Non-conference games against the best teams; home and home permitted, even encouraged. I certainly would not object to two ND and two UTenn. and ESPN would be thrilled.
Probably good for the game.

Forget about the lesser programs in OOC; too bad for Jen and the others but if we continue our normal scheduling, next season may be brutal. And something along the lines of my suggestion will be required for the following (potentially equally dominate)
season.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

I'm thinking that we are truly blessed("spoilt") as fans when we can devote time to complaining about a few "elective" games that are not up to competitive snuff (yeah I know plenty of league games will fall in there too). Someone was questioning why less competitive teams would like to go play UConn at home and get thrashed, questioning the veracity of another poster. Well, believe it. Year in and year out players from those squads talk of their team excitement on learning that they have a UConn game and they love the opportunity to experience the crowd and big league nature of it all. I think it was an Oregon player who ran up to Geno before the game and shook his hand to thank him - sort of nonplused Geno. In an article posted yesterday I believe Geno pointed out that a benefit of these tournaments is that they only count as one game against your in season limit of 29 AND UConn does not get to select the opponents. The teams we played all played good positional basketball so the team had to exercise good skills in ball movement. UConn did not get sloppy. Everyone took something away from the exercise.

PS. The other top ten squads had similar experiences last week...for the most part overwhelming lesser foes.

 

[johnnyc]

You seriously don't understand why a clearly overmatched team would want to play against the best WCBB team on the planet? Or why their players wouldn't relish the chance to do the same? It's obvious, then, why you aren't a coach (or a player).

I enjoyed watching those three teams, BU, Monmouth and St. Bon. compete right until the final buzzer and look forward to see how they do in conference play. If they were somehow demoralized by getting blown out by the # 1 team in the country they wouldn't have played hard to the end.

 

[meyers7]

where have you read that the players themselves "relish" the opportunity to play uconn? i've heard the coaches making an attempt to explain the value to their team. i think they take the uconn games

The Horde. Sometimes from the teams local write-ups. Sometimes the announcers have talked to the players. Different places.

 

[meyers7]

The point is that this was not exactly an appetizing event.

Well that may be for some fans. Others, enjoy the blowouts, enjoy watching different things than the final score.

But what I don't understand is a coach believing getting thrashed by UConn is a positive.

Well it's always possible it may not be. But the idea is to get certain things out of it. And if they do, then yes it certainly can be a positive.

 

[meyers7]

very well stated. the point is, some of us don't see the point in an event set up like this was. i'm hardly convinced by the arguments here of the value for either team.

Well that's kind of on you then. Because many of us here do see the value. Geno sees the value. The other coaches seem to see the value. There seem to just be a few of you who don't. hmmmm?