Helm’s Championships

[CL82]

We would do the same thing

Would we, though? To me throwing up pretend championships that aren't actually one on the court up there with actual championships dilutes the value of the real ones.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Would we, though? To me throwing up pretend championships that aren't actually one on the court up there with actual championships dilutes the value of the real ones.

Of course we would. KU has the original rules of basketball on display and other historical artifacts. The Helms are part of the history of the sport, like the early NIT titles as well, and Kansas rightly feels like it has a big part of that history. I've never met a single KU fan (not counting the Twitter trolls) that feels that they are equivalent to the championships now. It's not a big deal.

 

[CL82]

Of course we would. KU has the original rules of basketball on display and other historical artifacts. The Helms are part of the history of the sport, like the early NIT titles as well, and Kansas rightly feels like it has a big part of that history. I've never met a single KU fan (not counting the Twitter trolls) that feels that they are equivalent to the championships now. It's not a big deal.

Still when you post a graphic during a game counting imaginary helms championships as national championships it just comes off as weak.

The retroactive Helms national championships from 1900–01 through 1941–42 were the opinions of one person about teams that played during an era when, due to factors outside their control (e.g., minimal schedules, lack of intersectional play, differing rule interpretations, minimal statistics), it is difficult to know or assess the relative strength of the teams.

Now if they want to post that they were selected by a single person retroactively as his pick national champions decades and tack it up alongside the copies of the original rules of basketball. Feel free. But, in the end they still are just one guy's opinion looking back at seasons decades later.

 

[joelerg87]

Still when you post a graphic during a game counting imaginary helms championships as national championships it just comes off as weak.

They have the banners hanging too. This wasn’t a one off for this game to take a shot at UConn.

Do people really care about this? I think it is stupid but any school is going to count it.

 

[CL82]

They have the banners hanging too. This wasn’t a one off for this game to take a shot at UConn.

Do people really care about this? I think it is stupid but any school is going to count it.

Shrugs. When you mix them in with championships that are actually earned it comes off weak in my opinion. Do you want to post it on a plaque in the men's room or something, by all means, feel free, but in the end it's still just one guy's opinion offered up decades after the fact.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Shrugs. When you mix them in with championships that are actually earned it comes off weak in my opinion. Do you want to post it on a plaque in the men's room or something, by all means, feel free, but in the end it's still just one guy's opinion offered up decades after the fact.

If it was me, I'd put them up but a different color or something. Just like you'd put up an NIT banner. I think it is a bit much to label them National Championships like they do. even just saying "Helms Championship" would be fine.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Shrugs. When you mix them in with championships that are actually earned it comes off weak in my opinion. Do you want to post it on a plaque in the men's room or something, by all means, feel free, but in the end it's still just one guy's opinion offered up decades after the fact.

Found this in a KC Star article. I agree distinguishing them like Pitt does is the right move.

"One can argue that KU should distinguish between those championships. The school chooses not to do that. The 1922, 1923, 1952, 1988 and 2008 banners are uniform in size and appearance.

The same is true at North Carolina, which hangs a 1924 Helms national champion banner alongside its five NCAA championship flags. Pittsburgh identifies the Helms Foundation on its banners for 1928 and 1930.

Kentucky doesn’t consider its 1933 Helms championship banner-worthy."

 

[UConnSwag11]

Found this in a KC Star article. I agree distinguishing them like Pitt does is the right move.

"One can argue that KU should distinguish between those championships. The school chooses not to do that. The 1922, 1923, 1952, 1988 and 2008 banners are uniform in size and appearance.

The same is true at North Carolina, which hangs a 1924 Helms national champion banner alongside its five NCAA championship flags. Pittsburgh identifies the Helms Foundation on its banners for 1928 and 1930.

Kentucky doesn’t consider its 1933 Helms championship banner-worthy."

Never thought I’d say Kentucky has standards but compared to the other the schools the bar isn’t that high

 

[HooperScooper]

It's pretty weak to count it as a national championship but who the heck cares. They can do whatever they want. I don't think you'd see any media refer to Kansas as having 6 national championships and I highly doubt the NCAA would either.

 

[Palatine]

The Helms Foundation was founded by Helm's Bakery. They had an "expert" panel that awarded a national championship. Many of the Helms championships were named retroactively. Both Helm's Kansas national champions were awarded this way. It has no more standing than if the Boneyard had a panel that awarded the national championship.

No one knows who the best team in the country was back then. It was a guess by a Bakery.

 

[king conn]

They are the NFL Championships. Just because the NFL Championship was re-named the "Super Bowl" in the 1960's does not make all the previous championships void. It a completely meaningless distinction. LOL.

You are pure density

Who said they were void?

They are ignored. Take it up with the media and general public if you don't like it. Just because you lived through them doesn't make them relevant for anyone else.

 

[CL82]

The Helms Foundation was founded by Helm's Bakery. They had an "expert" panel that awarded a national championship. Many of the Helms championships were named retroactively. Both Helm's Kansas national champions were awarded this way. It has no more standing than if the Boneyard had a panel that awarded the national championship.

No one knows who the best team in the country was back then. It was a guess by a Bakery.

Worse it was a guess by a single guy who co-owned a bakery for the bulk of them.

 

[superjohn]

How lame is it that Kansas posted that they have 6 National on their scoreboard prior to the beginning of the game Friday night? This elicited many WTF’s and “Stop”s from the UConn contingent in our section.

That's hilarious and pathetic. Going to have to bring that up to my Kansas friends.

 

[Palatine]

You are pure density

Who said they were void?

They are ignored. Take it up with the media and general public if you don't like it. Just because you lived through them doesn't make them relevant for anyone else.

They are ignored by you. They are not ignored by the NFL or millions of fans.

Your theory is that the Packers did NOT win three straight NFL Championships in 65, 66, 67. 1965 is simply ignored. They only won two because only two were called Super Bowls? Tell that to the 60,000+ in Lambeau last night. Your position is simply not tenable.

 

[NC_Uconn_Fan]

NFL championships, pre super bowl absolutely count. How can they not? They were played out on the field. However, the Helms is a joke.

 

[JeepCSC]

Starting in the '20s, it became a kind of journalistic parlor trick to crown the national champions in football, a regional sport with limited crossover games. Over the next several decades, those who came up with criteria to figure out the current national champion started to use their criteria to retroactively name champions. Basketball got a similar treatment, which continued even after the national tournaments due to a number of reasons (some teams played in both, some in neither, some in only one or the other). The NCAA tournament consolidated it's hold in the '50s and '60s on crowning a 'true' national champion, but for half the history of the sport there was nothing so clear-cut. Doubly true in football. The Helms was one of the major indexes of this age (recognized as a major selector by the NCAA football title parlance).

Likely UNC made hay of the Helm's to distance itself from State and Duke. It's not on the same level as the NCAA Tourney, but it's not nothing. And when it comes to rivalries sometimes "not nothing" is all the reason you need to celebrate.

 

[RichCTBB]

Hanging a banner for a Helm’s championship is like hanging a banner for being #1 in the AP poll.

 

[Leebo]

They are the NFL Championships. Just because the NFL Championship was re-named the "Super Bowl" in the 1960's does not make all the previous championships void. It a completely meaningless distinction. LOL.

NFL Championships were selected by committee?

 

[king conn]

They are ignored by you. They are not ignored by the NFL or millions of fans.

Your theory is that the Packers did NOT win three straight NFL Championships in 65, 66, 67. 1965 is simply ignored. They only won two because only two were called Super Bowls? Tell that to the 60,000+ in Lambeau last night. Your position is simply not tenable.

Wait. So your position is, pre Super Bowls champions get all the attention that the Super Bowls champions get.

And you say my position is not tenable.

Sure thing

 

[JeepCSC]

Hanging a banner for a Helm’s championship is like hanging a banner for being #1 in the AP poll.

Hanging banners for final AP #1’s is fairly common though.

 

[RichCTBB]

Hanging banners for final AP #1’s is fairly common though.

I didn't know that. As long as it's not being represented as a Championship of some kind. A helm's trophie is just a poll.

 

[HuskyHawk]

I didn't know that. As long as it's not being represented as a Championship of some kind. A helm's trophie is just a poll.

I get this and it is valid to a degree. But this is how every football national champion was named until the BCS in 1998 (still unofficial) and playoff in 2014. Sometimes the polls disagreed. Those schools all claim those as championships. Michigan and Nebraska both claim 1997 for example.

 

[JeepCSC]

I didn't know that. As long as it's not being represented as a Championship of some kind. A helm's trophie is just a poll.

I mean an AP #1 finish is both a poll and a championship. USC was the last true AP champion, but some of the biggest names in sports history built their resumes off the backs of polls and selectors and whatnot. Bear Bryant won a couple AP titles and then promptly lost the bowl game.

 

[uconnfan68]

The Helms Foundation was founded by Helm's Bakery. They had an "expert" panel that awarded a national championship. Many of the Helms championships were named retroactively. Both Helm's Kansas national champions were awarded this way. It has no more standing than if the Boneyard had a panel that awarded the national championship.

No one knows who the best team in the country was back then. It was a guess by a Bakery.

Based on that we have one for 2009. We were the best team before Dyson went down.

 

[HuskyHawk]

I mean an AP #1 finish is both a poll and a championship. USC was the last true AP champion, but some of the biggest names in sports history built their resumes off the backs of polls and selectors and whatnot. Bear Bryant won a couple AP titles and then promptly lost the bowl game.

Without it, Notre Dame has no championships.