Height and Depth -- Evidence vs. Prejudice | Page 3 | The Boneyard

Height and Depth -- Evidence vs. Prejudice

Carnac

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ONO has to start, her defensive presence alone assures that.................one of the other four you have listed is going to have to take a seat.....................most likely Anna or Evina................the great news is Geno will finally have a bench that has really talented players equal to the starters possibly even better in some regards..............it's been quite awhile since that's been a reality..............I expect 7-8 players averaging at least 20 minutes a game........

I believe ONO will start the remainder of her tenure here, and will finally have a legitimate back up in reserve next year. I have suggested in previous posts that with 3/4 of the season gone, she has progressed as much as she’s going to this season.

She’ll take the lessons (experiences) learned from this year going against elite post players, and use them for motivation to improve her overall game. I’m predicting a huge "junior jump" for her similar to that of Megan’s this year. Liv should hit her stride somewhere around game 9 or 10 next season. Her play will be consistent and productive.

She’ll make the bunnies and layups she’s missing now. She will have “trashed” that dreaded fly swat (shot blocking) technique. She won’t shrink in big games against other elite teams or post players.
 
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The bottom line is that Oregon has a high level of overall team skill (shooting, passing, and effective ballhandling) and skilled size in Sabally and Hebard that Ionescu has what she needs to be extremely effective against teams with height, teams with quickness, and any combination of the above at the college level.
The bottom line is that Oregon has a high level of overall team skill (shooting, passing, and effective ballhandling) and skilled size in Sabally and Hebard that Ionescu has what she needs to be extremely effective against teams with height, teams with quickness, and any combination of the above at the college level.

It will take a poor shooting performance by Oregon and/or a spirited defensive performance by a Top 15 level team to beat Oregon. It has happened twice this season so far. It can happen again. Teams (like Baylor and South Carolina) that can provide extensive ball pressure at all five positions are probably best qualified to beat Oregon. The PAC-12 Conference schedule has got Oregon ready to compete with anyone in the nation. Looking forward to seeing if Stanford can give the Ducks a more competitive effort in Palo Alto. Stanford is a very good defensive team, but its defense didn't show well during the first matchup between the two teams in January. I think Tara will have the Cardinal ready defensively later this month in the rematch.
When ASU defeated Oregon in Tempe the Devils had their strongest defensive performance of the year which lead to poor shooting by the Ducks.

At the risk of being inflammatory I wonder if a case can be made that ASU's defense overall is more effective than the Huskies. If that is the case then we can see the wisdom Geno's comment before this game for the Huskies to win they had to shoot the ball very well.

The shooting challenges for the Huskies were a combination of self inflicted due to an inability to run offense or generate much transition and Oregon's improved defense.
 

meyers7

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1. I believe that Jessica Moore arrived in 2000 and was a redshirt as a freshman.

2. Of the classes that you list, only TASSK had four productive players. None of the others had more than three, and most had only two. I hope that trend does not continue with the new incoming class.
No, Moore came in with DT's class. She did redshirt though, along with Battle.

All of DT's class was productive. All played, nobody transferred. Probably did help that Battle and Moore redshirted though. Valley did have some injury problems though which limited her.
 
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I deliberately have avoided reading the Oregon Postgame thread, but I have read enough material on other threads to realize that (once again, as after Baylor) a comparison of facts against prejudices is a useful and necessary exercise. I'm addressing two specific myths about this year's UConn team:
  1. Myth 1 is that UConn has a much thinner bench than other Top 10 teams, and that this is why they have come up short against the only two Top 10 teams they have played this year.
  2. Myth 2 is that UConn's present lack of size (i.e., height) is a decisive reason why they have lost those two games.
With regard to bench depth, as with Baylor, checking the box score against Oregon easily disposes of this argument. In the February 3 game, Oregon's bench played a total of 27 minutes and scored zero points, grabbed zero rebounds, had 1 assist and 2 steals. To compare that fairly to UConn, it is necessary to treat Anna as a starter (she played 36 minutes) and Kyla as a bench player (she played 4). After making this adjustment, UConn's bench played 32 minutes and scored 3 points, got 5 rebounds including 2 offensive rebounds, had 1 assist, 3 steals, and 3 turnovers. All those stats are attributable to Aubrey, who played 22 minutes. So which team got more productivity from their bench?

With regard to the impact of height, the issue is not so clear. Oregon did have a somewhat significant height advantage (6-4, 6-4, 6-2 in the front court as compared to 6-5, 6-1, and 6-1 for UConn). Oregon did out-rebound UConn by 40 to 32, and got 12 offensive rebounds compared to UConn's 9. In percentage terms (which are more relevant), Oregon got back 12 of its 33 missed shots (36.3%), and UConn got back 9 of 34 misses (26.4%). Oregon's two tallest players (Sabally and Hebard) got 22 rebounds (Boley, the third member of their starting front court, got only 2), while UConn's three front-court starters got only 17. However, Ionescu (a 5-10 guard) got 9 rebounds for Oregon, while Christyn and Aubrey (5-10 and 6-1) also got a total of 9 rebounds. So for both teams, a significant part of the rebounding was done by players who did not possess a lot of size. So you could conclude from the box score that Oregon's greater size played some role in their rebounding advantage.

However, using the eye test, one has to ask whether it was the Oregon players' size that gave them a rebounding advantage, or was it their experience? Hebard is a senior and Sabally is (I believe) a 4th-year junior, who have both been starters since their freshman year. That is a lot more experience than Olivia, Megan, and Anna. In my opinion, which is supported by the stats from the Baylor game which were basically even in rebounding, the experience was the decisive factor. Three years ago in Bridgeport, these same Oregon players were rebounding against Gabby / Napheesa / Lou, and they were not successful then despite a height advantage. In that game, the experience advantage favored UConn.

One minor point of intersection between Myth 1 and Myth 2 exists in the 6-5 Oregon bench player Lydia Giomi. I remember Boneyard posters citing her as an example of the kind of height that other top teams possess, and that UConn could not match. Well, in last night's game, Ms. Giomi played all of 2 minutes and did exactly nothing. So much for that particular (alleged) source of height and depth.

UConn's height and depth will improve in the next 2-3 years because of the recruitment of bigs that Geno has already done. But if UConn is more successful in these years, it will probably be more attributable to the players on the current roster gaining experience and maturity than to the contributions of these new players. I really think that will happen.
 
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I deliberately have avoided reading the Oregon Postgame thread, but I have read enough material on other threads to realize that (once again, as after Baylor) a comparison of facts against prejudices is a useful and necessary exercise. I'm addressing two specific myths about this year's UConn team:
  1. Myth 1 is that UConn has a much thinner bench than other Top 10 teams, and that this is why they have come up short against the only two Top 10 teams they have played this year.
  2. Myth 2 is that UConn's present lack of size (i.e., height) is a decisive reason why they have lost those two games.
With regard to bench depth, as with Baylor, checking the box score against Oregon easily disposes of this argument. In the February 3 game, Oregon's bench played a total of 27 minutes and scored zero points, grabbed zero rebounds, had 1 assist and 2 steals. To compare that fairly to UConn, it is necessary to treat Anna as a starter (she played 36 minutes) and Kyla as a bench player (she played 4). After making this adjustment, UConn's bench played 32 minutes and scored 3 points, got 5 rebounds including 2 offensive rebounds, had 1 assist, 3 steals, and 3 turnovers. All those stats are attributable to Aubrey, who played 22 minutes. So which team got more productivity from their bench?

With regard to the impact of height, the issue is not so clear. Oregon did have a somewhat significant height advantage (6-4, 6-4, 6-2 in the front court as compared to 6-5, 6-1, and 6-1 for UConn). Oregon did out-rebound UConn by 40 to 32, and got 12 offensive rebounds compared to UConn's 9. In percentage terms (which are more relevant), Oregon got back 12 of its 33 missed shots (36.3%), and UConn got back 9 of 34 misses (26.4%). Oregon's two tallest players (Sabally and Hebard) got 22 rebounds (Boley, the third member of their starting front court, got only 2), while UConn's three front-court starters got only 17. However, Ionescu (a 5-10 guard) got 9 rebounds for Oregon, while Christyn and Aubrey (5-10 and 6-1) also got a total of 9 rebounds. So for both teams, a significant part of the rebounding was done by players who did not possess a lot of size. So you could conclude from the box score that Oregon's greater size played some role in their rebounding advantage.

However, using the eye test, one has to ask whether it was the Oregon players' size that gave them a rebounding advantage, or was it their experience? Hebard is a senior and Sabally is (I believe) a 4th-year junior, who have both been starters since their freshman year. That is a lot more experience than Olivia, Megan, and Anna. In my opinion, which is supported by the stats from the Baylor game which were basically even in rebounding, the experience was the decisive factor. Three years ago in Bridgeport, these same Oregon players were rebounding against Gabby / Napheesa / Lou, and they were not successful then despite a height advantage. In that game, the experience advantage favored UConn.

One minor point of intersection between Myth 1 and Myth 2 exists in the 6-5 Oregon bench player Lydia Giomi. I remember Boneyard posters citing her as an example of the kind of height that other top teams possess, and that UConn could not match. Well, in last night's game, Ms. Giomi played all of 2 minutes and did exactly nothing. So much for that particular (alleged) source of height and depth.

UConn's height and depth will improve in the next 2-3 years because of the recruitment of bigs that Geno has already done. But if UConn is more successful in these years, it will probably be more attributable to the players on the current roster gaining experience and maturity than to the contributions of these new players. I really think that will happen.
Impressive review and look forward to seeing your write up on South Carolina again with the zone and more quickness.
 
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A couple of corrections, and a few comments: 1) Sabally is in her third year (same as Megan); and 2) Sabally and Boley did not play in the game in Bridgeport (they weren't yet on the roster). Morgan Yaeger played 3 minutes, but seldom plays now due to back issues, Giomi was out with an injury. So Ionescu and Hebard are the only real holdovers.

As to height, many posters here do not believe that Hebard is close to 6'4" (ask @oldude); I think she is, but I suppose it really doesn't matter much. Boley has never been a very good rebounder so 2 is about as good as one gets from her. Ionescu is in fact the second leading rebounder on the team (after Hebard); Sabally is #3, but has been a monster on the offensive boards of late. Moore is also a very good rebounder for her size. So, yes, I don't think height is the only factor involved.

As for the bench, in this game Chavez missed shots she normally makes but was very good on the defensive end imo. I think the game was too big for Giomi, who has been getting solid minutes (about 12/game) and been reasonably productive throughout most of the season. The biggest change was the limited minutes for the freshman guard Shelley, who normally is on the court for 19 minutes/game (and averages about 5.5 points), but only 5 minutes in this one. (Chavez averages about 21/game and slightly more points than Shelley; she was on the court for 19 minutes on Monday.) The differences are, I believe, testimony to the challenges involved in playing UCONN at Gampel.

I do think that Graves is much more willing to play (and forgive) reserves than Geno; perhaps that stems from not having a roster filled with the stellar recruits UCONN regularly has (still true at Oregon; even more true at Gonzaga); perhaps he believes that's the best way to build a team; perhaps it's just temperamental. But I don't think it will change.
These are careful and detailed analyses. The simply answer, then, is this;

1. Oregon made shots and we didn't
2. Oregon played a team offense, filled with excellent movement, and we didn't.
3. They beat us from start to finish.

Height and depth not withstanding.
 
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If that’s true, let’s hear it for 6’ 3” Edwards. If she can be our Hebard, it takes pressure off ONO. If not more. How about this starting five. Bueckers, Westbrook, Makurat, Walker and Edwards.
No .. Liv is our best player for next year and I envision a lock-down, defense oriented starting five that is willing to share the ball: Liv, Mir, Griff, Ania & Paige.
 
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When ASU defeated Oregon in Tempe the Devils had their strongest defensive performance of the year which lead to poor shooting by the Ducks.

At the risk of being inflammatory I wonder if a case can be made that ASU's defense overall is more effective than the Huskies. If that is the case then we can see the wisdom Geno's comment before this game for the Huskies to win they had to shoot the ball very well.

The shooting challenges for the Huskies were a combination of self inflicted due to an inability to run offense or generate much transition and Oregon's improved defense.
Not inflammatory but, IMO, no way. I live in Phoenix and have seen ASU play several times, and I don’t see it. If their “defense overall” was that effective then they wouldn’t have lost 6 games to teams the Huskies would beat at least 9 out of 10 times. They wouldn’t have given up 80 points to Minnesota or lost TWICE to Arizona. I like ASU and CTT but they are in no way elite. That they beat Oregon is just a reminder that Oregon can have a bad day.
 

JoePgh

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No .. Liv is our best player for next year and I envision a lock-down, defense oriented starting five that is willing to share the ball: Liv, Mir, Griff, Ania & Paige.
So you are willing to send Megan, Christyn, and Evina to the bench to start two freshman and a sophomore who was an inconsistent role player as a freshman????

Have you checked the statistical productivity at the college level of the experienced players that you are proposing to bench?
 
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So you are willing to send Megan, Christyn, and Evina to the bench to start two freshman and a sophomore who was an inconsistent role player as a freshman????

Have you checked the statistical productivity at the college level of the experienced players that you are proposing to bench?
DEFENSE: no one can score on us and we'll have gr8 bench!
 
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No .. Liv is our best player for next year and I envision a lock-down, defense oriented starting five that is willing to share the ball: Liv, Mir, Griff, Ania & Paige.
No dis-respect, but you can't be serious. I believe you must have a typo. Not start Meg Walker or Christen Williams? Not start Westbrook? I agree that Paige and Olivia will start, though Geno may hold back on Paige until he is confident she knows the offense. I don't believe Griffin will ever be a starter, assuming she isn't forced into that spot due to injuries. She will be a " sixth man" off the bench. And maybe regarded as one of the best in the nation at that role. She has excellent , but limited, skills. She is not, and I don't think will ever be, a " complete " basketball player.
 

DefenseBB

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When ASU defeated Oregon in Tempe the Devils had their strongest defensive performance of the year which lead to poor shooting by the Ducks.

At the risk of being inflammatory I wonder if a case can be made that ASU's defense overall is more effective than the Huskies. If that is the case then we can see the wisdom Geno's comment before this game for the Huskies to win they had to shoot the ball very well.

The shooting challenges for the Huskies were a combination of self inflicted due to an inability to run offense or generate much transition and Oregon's improved defense.
I guess we get to see your theory play out this weekend up in Eugene. My guess is the Ducks by 20. 82-62 type score. While I am inclined to say the ASU defense is better than UConn's, the Sun Devils are challenged offensively. How many scorers do they have-Ryan and....?
 
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No dis-respect, but you can't be serious. I believe you must have a typo. Not start Meg Walker or Christen Williams? Not start Westbrook? I agree that Paige and Olivia will start, though Geno may hold back on Paige until he is confident she knows the offense. I don't believe Griffin will ever be a starter, assuming she isn't forced into that spot due to injuries. She will be a " sixth man" off the bench. And maybe regarded as one of the best in the nation at that role. She has excellent , but limited, skills. She is not, and I don't think will ever be, a " complete " basketball player.
Nah .. I'd start the best defensive players, get a quick lead, then bring in MW&CW if they are willing to pass the ball and run the 'team offense' .. I think Paige, Ania, Liv, Mir & Griff can win a LOT of games...
 

CocoHusky

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Nah .. I'd start the best defensive players, get a quick lead, then bring in MW&CW if they are willing to pass the ball and run the 'team offense' .. I think Paige, Ania, Liv, Mir & Griff can win a LOT of games...
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ONO has to start, her defensive presence alone assures that.................one of the other four you have listed is going to have to take a seat.....................most likely Anna or Evina................the great news is Geno will finally have a bench that has really talented players equal to the starters possibly even better in some regards..............it's been quite awhile since that's been a reality..............I expect 7-8 players averaging at least 20 minutes a game........
If ONO can perform more consistently, this will change the style UConn can play and the defenses our opponents have to play. Will likely affect the substitution patterns as well.
 

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