Height and Depth -- Evidence vs. Prejudice

[LOhunter]

In respect to Giomi only playing two minutes. Hebard was playing well and so there was no real reason to play Giomi many minutes. Giomi is actually a better defender than Hebard, but she is not an offensive threat and that is why she does not get a lot of minutes. Unlike Uconn, Oregon does have a tall center who can come in and play defense and rebound if necessary.

Don't really buy that Giomi is a better defender than Hebard. Hebard has defended several huge (big and heavy) post players including that gal from Mississippi State last year in the regionals because of her lower body strength, footwork and knowledge of how to play the game. Giomi and Nelson-Ododa are certainly taller than Hebard, but that advantage is negated by what appears to be a large wingspan, good hops and/or body strength. Height isn't everything. Giomi is a fine player and very fast but she doesn't have the physicality of Hebard.

 

[Rixxx]

The chemistry among Hebard, Sabally, and Sabrina is just outstanding. This is a dynamic that all teams have to overcome to beat UO.

 

[BostonBay]

It's not just height (or weight). UConn lack physical & inside "presence". ONO is taller (or just as tall) as any of her inside competitors. But, she has no presence (against the good teams). She cant box out, so opponents can easily post up on her under the basket. She usually gets out-rebounded or stripped. she's not reacting quick enough when competitors drive-and-dish on her under the basket, etc. On the other end, she's only capable of taking a mid/outside jumper since she cant get inside position.

BYW, its not just her, but we literally dont have any other "bigs"!

You have to be blind in terms of who owned the paint vs. Oergon or vs. Baylor (especially in the 4th quarter). Meanwhile, uconn's entire half-court offense is on the perimeter.

So, one team is getting much, much easier looks than UConn. You cant win that way over 40 minutes unless you hit an absurd number of outside shots.

 

[Fairfield Fan]

I deliberately have avoided reading the Oregon Postgame thread, but I have read enough material on other threads to realize that (once again, as after Baylor) a comparison of facts against prejudices is a useful and necessary exercise. I'm addressing two specific myths about this year's UConn team:

1. Myth 1 is that UConn has a much thinner bench than other Top 10 teams, and that this is why they have come up short against the only two Top 10 teams they have played this year.
2. Myth 2 is that UConn's present lack of size (i.e., height) is a decisive reason why they have lost those two games.

With regard to bench depth, as with Baylor, checking the box score against Oregon easily disposes of this argument. In the February 3 game, Oregon's bench played a total of 27 minutes and scored zero points, grabbed zero rebounds, had 1 assist and 2 steals. To compare that fairly to UConn, it is necessary to treat Anna as a starter (she played 36 minutes) and Kyla as a bench player (she played 4). After making this adjustment, UConn's bench played 32 minutes and scored 3 points, got 5 rebounds including 2 offensive rebounds, had 1 assist, 3 steals, and 3 turnovers. All those stats are attributable to Aubrey, who played 22 minutes. So which team got more productivity from their bench?

With regard to the impact of height, the issue is not so clear. Oregon did have a somewhat significant height advantage (6-4, 6-4, 6-2 in the front court as compared to 6-5, 6-1, and 6-1 for UConn). Oregon did out-rebound UConn by 40 to 32, and got 12 offensive rebounds compared to UConn's 9. In percentage terms (which are more relevant), Oregon got back 12 of its 33 missed shots (36.3%), and UConn got back 9 of 34 misses (26.4%). Oregon's two tallest players (Sabally and Hebard) got 22 rebounds (Boley, the third member of their starting front court, got only 2), while UConn's three front-court starters got only 17. However, Ionescu (a 5-10 guard) got 9 rebounds for Oregon, while Christyn and Aubrey (5-10 and 6-1) also got a total of 9 rebounds. So for both teams, a significant part of the rebounding was done by players who did not possess a lot of size. So you could conclude from the box score that Oregon's greater size played some role in their rebounding advantage.

However, using the eye test, one has to ask whether it was the Oregon players' size that gave them a rebounding advantage, or was it their experience? Hebard is a senior and Sabally is (I believe) a 4th-year junior, who have both been starters since their freshman year. That is a lot more experience than Olivia, Megan, and Anna. In my opinion, which is supported by the stats from the Baylor game which were basically even in rebounding, the experience was the decisive factor. Three years ago in Bridgeport, these same Oregon players were rebounding against Gabby / Napheesa / Lou, and they were not successful then despite a height advantage. In that game, the experience advantage favored UConn.

One minor point of intersection between Myth 1 and Myth 2 exists in the 6-5 Oregon bench player Lydia Giomi. I remember Boneyard posters citing her as an example of the kind of height that other top teams possess, and that UConn could not match. Well, in last night's game, Ms. Giomi played all of 2 minutes and did exactly nothing. So much for that particular (alleged) source of height and depth.

UConn's height and depth will improve in the next 2-3 years because of the recruitment of bigs that Geno has already done. But if UConn is more successful in these years, it will probably be more attributable to the players on the current roster gaining experience and maturity than to the contributions of these new players. I really think that will happen.

But sometimes it's not just the height per se, but the quality of that height. ONO has just not proven that she can be a bruiser. But Aliyah Boston in South Carolina has proven that she's an amazing talent in the post, and could lead her team to four championships. So too is Ashten Prechtel in Stanford a rising talent. And Hebert in Oregon has proven she's one of the best front court players in the nation, regardless of whether she's 6'4" or a shade shorter.

When we had Tina Charles in the post, she could beat virtually any post player or other big that was on the court, except for the amazing Sylvia Fowles. And when we combined Stewie with the defensive prowess of Kiah Stokes, we were unbeatable.

Not sure whether Piath Gabriel will prove to be the muscle in the middle we need. Perhaps need to wait one more year for that great post talent to arrive.

 

[DefenseBB]

Based on what?

Based on how Geno regularly supports upper classman in his program. We know there is a freshman learning curve and only when the situation is tilted heavily towards the talent will a freshman get the starting nod. CW got it last year as there were no viable alternatives. Next year, for how great we think Paige will be, Evina is an experience College Point guard. Now if you want to say Evina and Paige start with CW, ONO and MW ok. Come on, just look at this year with Geno sticking with Kyla as his 5th starter despite the overwhelming evidence Anna is better now. At the beginning of next year, he is not sitting Liv in favor of Edwards. Just not happening and I will bet the farm on that.

 

[Cuango]

I believe that the main reason we have seen our dominance slide over the past three years (though we continue to be a very good team) is the lack of a true alpha who can take over the game and lead the others to a win in the really competitive, tough games. Let’s face it, this team has no one approaching D or Tina or Stewie, Sue, Shea, Maya, ... Sure, those players were good but they also were strong willed winners who played their best when the team really needed them. With the possible exception of CD, we don’t have that on this team. Hopefully, some of these players will mature into that type of player (as did Tina, Stef etc) but for now, we simply do not have anyone who has shown the ability ( or even the desire) who can consistently step up in difficult games! Perhaps it is simply a matter of time and experience for this group. I certainly think that Paige potentially could be one of those players but we shall see. Again, not saying anything negative about any of our current players as I am very proud and supportive of all of them. The types of dominant, alpha players that are mentioned above, are very rare and we have had far more than our share of them. Here’s hoping some combination of growth and/or recruiting, will bring us more of them soon.

 

[CocoHusky]

Based on how Geno regularly supports upperclassman in his program. We know there is a freshman learning curve and only when the situation is tilted heavily towards the talent will a freshman get the starting nod. CW got it last year as there were no viable alternatives. Next year, for how great we think Paige will be, Evina is an experience College Point guard. Now if you want to say Evina and Paige start with CW, ONO and MW ok. Come on, just look at this year with Geno sticking with Kyla as his 5th starter despite the overwhelming evidence Anna is better now. At the beginning of next year, he is not sitting Liv in favor of Edwards. Just not happening and I will bet the farm on that.

Geno is loyal to the players that have earned it, not to upperclassman by default. For two consecutive years now after ND in FF and after Oregon on Monday Geno stated "We just weren't good enough". For the first time (ever?) he is bringing in a class of 5 recruits. As things stand now more than half of the roster (6 of 11) will be new players for UCONN next season. This seems like a good time to start fresh to determine if that group "is good enough." There is only one player returning that might have been exempt from competition for a starting spot next year-Crystal is graduating though. Megan started off well AA caliber but has wilted greatly against TN, Oregon & Baylor. I also want to remind you that Anna was a starter in the second game of the season and has started 3 other times since then. So this "overwhelming evidence" that you speak off has apparently alluded Geno also. BTW as has already been pointed Kyla is the starter in name only. Anna is averaging more minutes (+6) per game than Kyla. Anna is averaging only 2 less minutes per game than ONO.

 

[CocoHusky]

I believe that the main reason we have seen our dominance slide over the past three years (though we continue to be a very good team) is the lack of a true alpha who can take over the game and lead the others to a win in the really competitive, tough games. Let’s face it, this team has no one approaching D or Tina or Stewie, Sue, Shea, Maya, ... Sure, those players were good but they also were strong willed winners who played their best when the team really needed them. With the possible exception of CD, we don’t have that on this team. Hopefully, some of these players will mature into that type of player (as did Tina, Stef etc) but for now, we simply do not have anyone who has shown the ability ( or even the desire) who can consistently step up in difficult games! Perhaps it is simply a matter of time and experience for this group. I certainly think that Paige potentially could be one of those players but we shall see. Again, not saying anything negative about any of our current players as I am very proud and supportive of all of them. The types of dominant, alpha players that are mentioned above, are very rare and we have had far more than our share of them. Here’s hoping some combination of growth and/or recruiting, will bring us more of them soon.

So true! Below is a post from about a year ago

You can't teach dawg! You need a lot of dawg and skill to play successfully in the post at UCONN. It's not about the height either, Morgan Tuck had dawg and skill at 6'2". Natalie butler had a good amount of dawg, but as you said not enough skill.

 

[nwhoopfan]

like Geno said, some people complain that most of her shots are from close range but it doesn't matter where she shoots from, they usually go in

Exactly. It's not really a surprise to anyone what she's going to do (or try to do) while she's on the court. She's been doing it for 3 1/2 years. But most teams are unsuccessful in preventing her from doing it.

 

[WestCoast]

But Aliyah Boston in South Carolina has proven that she's an amazing talent in the post, and could lead her team to four championships.

The four championships that you are referring to for Boston are SEC titles, correct? I guess that "could" is the operative word. I would hope that you were not referring to national titles. Even with a quality support cast, I would not put Boston in the same realm as Breanna Stewart. I think that it will be more than a decade and perhaps much longer before we see another player win four national titles.

 

[CocoHusky]

The four championships that you are referring to for Boston are SEC titles, correct? I guess that "could" is the operative word. I would hope that you were not referring to national titles. Even with a quality support cast, I would not put Boston in the same realm as Breanna Stewart. I think that it will be more than a decade and perhaps much longer before we see another player win four national titles.

This is what happens when people throw around things like "generational talent" when referring to Boston. Pinocchio "could" be a great motivational speaker also.

 

[DefenseBB]

Geno is loyal to the players that have earned it, not to upperclassman by default. For two consecutive years now after ND in FF and after Oregon on Monday Geno stated "We just weren't good enough". For the first time (ever?) he is bringing in a class of 5 recruits. As things stand now more than half of the roster (6 of 11) will be new players for UCONN next season. This seems like a good time to start fresh to determine if that group "is good enough." There is only one player returning that might have been exempt from competition for a starting spot next year-Crystal is graduating though. Megan started off well AA caliber but has wilted greatly against TN, Oregon & Baylor. I also want to remind you that Anna was a starter in the second game of the season and has started 3 other times since then. So this "overwhelming evidence" that you speak off has apparently alluded Geno also. BTW as has already been pointed Kyla is the starter in name only. Anna is averaging more minutes (+6) per game than Kyla. Anna is averaging only 2 less minutes per game than ONO.

I still stand by my position that MW, CW, ONO, Evina and Anna start day one. Paige, Aaliyah and Aubrey will all have significant minutes as you alluded to like Anna.

 

[Charliebball]

I still stand by my position that MW, CW, ONO, Evina and Anna start day one. Paige, Aaliyah and Aubrey will all have significant minutes as you alluded to like Anna.

maybe day one but not day two.................PB doesn't sit for long if at all...................

 

[DefenseBB]

maybe day one but not day two.................PB doesn't sit for long if at all...................

I only said day one....My main point to the group was ONO will be the starter and it would take something almost catastrophic for her to not keep that role like Edwards being like Aliyah Boston, in which case I would GLADLY admit I was wrong...

 

[Charliebball]

I only said day one....My main point to the group was ONO will be the starter and it would take something almost catastrophic for her to not keep that role like Edwards being like Aliyah Boston, in which case I would GLADLY admit I was wrong...

ONO has to start, her defensive presence alone assures that.................one of the other four you have listed is going to have to take a seat.....................most likely Anna or Evina................the great news is Geno will finally have a bench that has really talented players equal to the starters possibly even better in some regards..............it's been quite awhile since that's been a reality..............I expect 7-8 players averaging at least 20 minutes a game........

 

[donalddoowop]

The experience factor. In the game in which UConn beat Oregon a few years ago, Collier, at 6'1", was too much for Hebard to handle. I remember someone saying that did not want any part of Collier after that. So, the poster who said experience over height is a big factor, is correct, at least in that instance.

 

[Bigboote]

Exhibit A for my skepticism on Ruthy Hebard's listed 6'4" size......
Bing
Hebard certainly “plays big,” but I have to agree with Geno. There is no way she’s 6’4”.

I think there's a perspective issue in that photo. If you carefully go horizontally, Christyn is about 3" shorter than Sabrina. Taking that into account puts Ruthie maybe 2" shorter than Olivia, in the 6-3 range cited in other posts. If she's shorter than that, it doesn't make any difference, because she sure plays 6-3.

 

[Bigboote]

Exactly. It's not really a surprise to anyone what she's going to do (or try to do) while she's on the court. She's been doing it for 3 1/2 years. But most teams are unsuccessful in preventing her from doing it.

Supposedly Ty Cobb said something like, "The best thing about facing Walter Johnson was you knew you were getting a fastball. The worst thing was, knowing it didn't do you any good."

I'm always amazed when I see Ruthie. She's a lot like Napheesa; she does her work before she gets the ball, always seems to be in the right place. She's "quiet". As a spectator, unless you're really paying attention, she's had a great game that you haven't really noticed.

 

[meyers7]

For the first time (ever?) he is bringing in a class of 5 recruits.

97-98 - Abrosimova, Schumaker, Glenney, Clark, Czel (Czel might have been a w/o?)
99-99 - TASSK
00-01 - DT, Conlon, Valley, Battle, Moore
06-07 - Charles, McLaren, Gardler, Phillips, Fernandes (w/o)
10-11 - Hartley, Dolson, Engeln, Johnson, Walker

So, Geno's brought in 5 before. Hasn't always worked out though.

 

[HopJim]

@JoePgh I don't think you can effectively counter either myth with a numeric (box score) or players listed height as you have done.

Two reason why:
1) The analysis for Myth #1 includes Kyla numbers as a starter. Kyla played 4 minutes in the Oregon game and 32 minutes in the Baylor game each time contributing zero points. For an analysis of relative bench depth to be useful it must start with the gap (if any) that is created by the starters. Oregon and Baylor did not need the bench because the starters did not create a gap (deficit). The UCONN starters clearly did create a deficit .

2) Your analysis for myth 2 ignores the matchups that actually evolved during those games. As an example you mention that Sabrina snagged 9 rebounds and that she is 5'10". You failed to mention that for much of this game Sabrina was matched up against 5'6" (allegedly) Crystal Dangerfield. More importantly and to Oregon' credit Ruth Hebard was 10 of 14 in this game. Each of her finishes were at or near the basket where she was finishing over, nobody or 6'1" Megan, Aubrey or Anna. Sabally 6'4" & Boley 6'4" in the Oregon offense are perimeter players. The UCONN perimeter defensive players are 5'11" 6'1" and 5'6". That means that Oregon is getting a lot of clean looks from the perimeter and the box score definitely reflects that.

I don't think these are myths, more like real UCONN weaknesses that can be and were exploited by two very good coaches with very talented teams that were both taller and more skilled than this version of the Huskies.
Bench depth in both of those games was hardly a factor and not worth talking about.

Have to fully agree with Coco's assessment and add that too many comparisons focus solely on height. There are many 6'2"/6'3" players coming out of high school (ex. KLS) who are really guards or small forwards. Oregon this year and Notre Dame past few years good examples of having 2+ players with height, strength, and attitude to dominate inside.

 

[willtalk]

Don't really buy that Giomi is a better defender than Hebard. Hebard has defended several huge (big and heavy) post players including that gal from Mississippi State last year in the regionals because of her lower body strength, footwork and knowledge of how to play the game. Giomi and Nelson-Ododa are certainly taller than Hebard, but that advantage is negated by what appears to be a large wingspan, good hops and/or body strength. Height isn't everything. Giomi is a fine player and very fast but she doesn't have the physicality of Hebard.

A lot depends on matchups. What I see in Giomi is the defensive range she covers. I have not seen a post in WCBB that can cover as much defensive space. She is also stronger than she appears and does not get pushed off the block like many players her size. The thing is that she is not even close to the offensive player that Hebard is. There is a huge drop off when Hebard is out. This is why she does not get that many minutes. I also believe that Greaves, although he is adapting, does not value defense as much. If I were Giomi I would have transferred out two years ago. I certainly can understand playing behind Hebard that she gets so few minutes. However, what is not understandable was her not getting as many minutes as Oti Gildon did last season. She was a tweener who should have never seen the court. I think it was because she came together with Greaves to Oregon from Gonzaga high school when he came from Gonzaga college-- same campus. A bit of favoritism.

 

[CocoHusky]

Is there a player in America who looks more dangerous and difficult to match up with than Sabally, even when she shoots 6/17 like she did in recent games against both UConn and Oregon State? She hasn't shot the three well (29%) this season, but can get that shot whenever she wants it because opposing defenses would prefer that to having her drive into the paint. Her length and dribbling ability at 6'4" make the game look easy for her, regardless of how she is shooting.

Sabally is clearly pro ready. Please jump to the pros ASAP

 

[JoePgh]

97-98 - Abrosimova, Schumaker, Glenney, Clark, Czel (Czel might have been a w/o?)
99-99 - TASSK
00-01 - DT, Conlon, Valley, Battle, Moore
06-07 - Charles, McLaren, Gardler, Phillips, Fernandes (w/o)
10-11 - Hartley, Dolson, Engeln, Johnson, Walker

So, Geno's brought in 5 before. Hasn't always worked out though.

1. I believe that Jessica Moore arrived in 2000 and was a redshirt as a freshman.

2. Of the classes that you list, only TASSK had four productive players. None of the others had more than three, and most had only two. I hope that trend does not continue with the new incoming class.

 

[Dokey]

I also see a team where seven to eight players see significant minutes. Line ups might depend on opposition. Against some teams you might want both ONO and Edwards in at same time. Having two great passers—Anna and Paige—who also shoot well on the floor at the same time could destroy defenses. I haven’t seen Evina so all I can say is she looks to be a great teammate so the possibility exists of three great passers who are scorers. That means Meg gets plenty of opportunities to shoot as does ONO or Edwards (it is going to take time before I trust myself with her first name).

 

[CocoHusky]

1. I believe that Jessica Moore arrived in 2000 and was a redshirt as a freshman.

2. Of the classes that you list, only TASSK had four productive players. None of the others had more than three, and most had only two. I hope that trend does not continue with the new incoming class.

Shoot! Are you kidding me. I'd take two productive players out of this class of 5 person '20 in a heartbeat.