Heat Pumps

[oshkosh]

A few years ago I bought my first house (built in the 90s) with all original mechanicals still chugging along. We have oil that fuels both the furnace (forced hot air) and hot water heater using oil burners, in addition to central A/C so the whole house is already ducted. I would like to upgrade all of this, preferably moving entirely away from oil. We are on borrowed time especially with the ol’ Superstor water heater ready to burst at the seams.

I see there are loads of incentives (energizeCT rebates + loans, federal tax credits) for heat pump units and hot water heaters, I just don’t know how well these perform in our climate and whether these are suitable replacements here.

I spoke to a couple HVAC tech’s who both mentioned that heat pumps need a backup heat source for cold days (<30 degrees F), yet I have seen units in my limited research that are rated for performance down to -15F.

I can recite the career stats of Ruslan Inyatkin on demand, but I simply don’t know jack about boilers, burners, furnaces, coils and that speak. Has anyone had a similar experience converting over these systems and can offer any helpful advice?

 

[Matrim55]

If this keeps up through December and into January (and I get my Energize CT rebate), I'm inclined to dump the oilburner and switch to an electric water heater in the coming year. Installer also noted about something that can be added to my existing heat pump to make it work well even in extreme cold (below 0) temps which I would also do if I get rid of the oil backup altogether.

Heat pump dryers are a thing now, too, if you want to switch the whole household:

 

[uconnfan68]

Depends on water hardness, which is determined by your water supply, city or well. I would assume city water has fewer particulates, but they don't filter out for calcium, magnesium that I know of...Those cause scale..if scales builds on the pipes, the heat transfer is dramatically decreased over time. If you have a tank, it doesn't matter as fire is blasting until the water comes to temp...with a tankless, you only have a second or 2 as the water cycles through.

Sounds logical. We have tankless water heater with oil burner for hot water radiators. No one ever suggested using any filter on city water, but I guess that my fault for not asking. On 2nd one now, and 1st lasted 20 years. I thought that was normal. Previous house has gas hot water tank. They don’t seem to last very long, and usually make a mess when failing.

 

[jibsey]

I have geothermal hot air with electric backup. The electric doesn’t go on much but in extreme cold it would run overnight. Air conditioning in summer is basically free. Also have solar panels. There’s no noise when it runs. Expensive to install but I feel worth it if you are long term in your home.

 

[bfs3]

Will provide my experience since I was faced with a similar decision this year. I have an oil powered boiler for floorboard heat and water heater that is well on its last legs (30+ years old). Was trying to decide to replace with new boiler or switch to heat pump. After a few calls and quotes, I determined it was significantly cheaper to try the Heat Pump out this winter for just heat and not hot water and keep my oil burner as backup and to handle hot water. The upfront cost for the Heat Pump was ~$6,500 but received an instant rebated of $750 and was given $500 for my 4 year old outdoor condenser from my central AC, so $5,250 upfront. I also will qualify for $2,000 Federal Tax credit and (supposedly) $1,000 per ton through Energize CT for a 3 ton system. This would bring my final cost down to a whopping $250. Note: I submitted my rebate form through Energize CT 2 months ago and am still waiting to hear back.

I got my Electricity Bill for November and my usage was up 35.6% compared to last November increasing my bill by ~$71. My oil consumption was down 70% saving me ~$350 with a net energy cost savings of ~$280. Assuming the Energize CT rebate comes through, the unit has already paid for itself.

As far as performance in colder temps - have yet to really see how far it can go. It's done perfectly fine keeping my home at 68 degrees so far and that was with the same warning from the installer that it becomes less efficient and can struggle to heat the home below 30 degrees. I know it doesn't "recover" temperature as well as the floorboard heaters so I just keep it pretty much set at 68 despite the smart thermostat being able to fluctuate the temp by time of day pretty easily (I do let it get "down" to 66 while we sleep).

If this keeps up through December and into January (and I get my Energize CT rebate), I'm inclined to dump the oilburner and switch to an electric water heater in the coming year. Installer also noted about something that can be added to my existing heat pump to make it work well even in extreme cold (below 0) temps which I would also do if I get rid of the oil backup altogether.

Did you only have to replace the outdoor unit and not the air handler? I’m guessing your AC system used 410A refrigerant if that’s the case. Either that or you should share the name of your contractor before he goes out of business.
The only thing you can ADD to a heat pump to heat to zero is the electric strip heater. You’re better off just switching to your boiler when it gets too cold. It’ll serve the purpose of your back up heat.

If someone has an oil furnace (meaning hot air) and not an oil boiler, you can add a new coil and a Heat Pump condenser for that price.

 

[bfs3]

Sounds logical. We have tankless water heater with oil burner for hot water radiators. No one ever suggested using any filter on city water, but I guess that my fault for not asking. On 2nd one now, and 1st lasted 20 years. I thought that was normal. Previous house has gas hot water tank. They don’t seem to last very long, and usually make a mess when failing.

Tankless coil in an oil boiler is a tough way to get hot water. I imagine you must run out pretty quickly. They can install a standard electric water heater as a storage tank and that would help out quite a bit.

 

[bfs3]

Maine is one of the biggest growth markets in the country for heat pumps. They must be able to function on some level in cold weather.

Geothermal does. Air sourced heat pumps to heat your home do not heat below 30-32 degrees without a backup heat source. Technology won’t change the fact that you need more heating BTUs than Cooling in CT or Mass. Air sourced Heat Pumps are air conditioners with a reversing valve.

In GA most homes are still built new with Natural Gas. Apartment and Condo buildings in every state are good candidates for Heat Pumps but if it gets below freezing in a stand alone home then an electric heat strip is still far more costly than a gas boiler/furnace. Every house is different and every situation is different. Talk to an HVAC contractor, not a homeowner. It can cost one guy $6000 for a heat pump or it can cost $12,000 to have the same one installed (new air handler, tonnage, duct changes, electrical changes etc are all variables).

 

[Kolumbo]

That’s a high efficiency boiler that has a tankless coil. A tankless water heater that doesn’t heat your home looks pretty much the same. Just keep in mind that these aren’t built to last much longer than a regular water heater (10 years). It should be cheaper when you go to replace it though. 3-4 years ago a tankless water heater sold for $2800-$3800. I saw a quote not long ago for $8500. The last dozen I sold were between $5500-$6500. Keep in mind if it heats your home then it’s a boiler/water heater. Different animal.

You must be right. I'm told it was about $8,500 3 years ago. We had a relative in the business do it for us so I'm sure we paid more than we had to! But it did make sense sinse we would have had to buy a new furnace and water heater, hopefully this thing has legs. And here's the kicker - due to the timing, we had oil in the tank and we actually paid a guy to come take our oil!

 

[NJHusky]

Sounds logical. We have tankless water heater with oil burner for hot water radiators. No one ever suggested using any filter on city water, but I guess that my fault for not asking. On 2nd one now, and 1st lasted 20 years. I thought that was normal. Previous house has gas hot water tank. They don’t seem to last very long, and usually make a mess when failing.

Sorry my comment was for hot water for household not heating . The water in a closed system has a fixed amount of calcium so u r fine imo.

 

[bfs3]

My ductwork is used to blow heat and A/C from the blower throughout the house. I am looking into the dual fuel set up more because I already have propane tanks on site exclusively for the whole house generator (which never really gets used). I'm wondering if that is a safer bet vs a standalone heat pump.

So you have an oil furnace? Meaning you don’t have an oil boiler that heats baseboard water? If so you should DEFINITELY get a heat pump condenser and an indoor AC coil that matches warranty. ~$6000 and up depending on efficiency. When your oil furnace needs to be replaced you should get a quote for a 95% and above efficient propane furnace. If you can swing both now then do it. In both instances this is a Dual Fuel heating system.

 

[bfs3]

You must be right. I'm told it was about $8,500 3 years ago. We had a relative in the business do it for us so I'm sure we paid more than we had to! But it did make sense sinse we would have had to buy a new furnace and water heater, hopefully this thing has legs. And here's the kicker - due to the timing, we had oil in the tank and we actually paid a guy to come take our oil!

Yeah, you still made the right choice. The HVAC company I worked for heated an entire warehouse with all the oil customers paid us to get rid of. As long as rebates stick around then even if you need to replace it in 10 years it was still the best choice you could have made.

 

[uconnfan68]

Tankless coil in an oil boiler is a tough way to get hot water. I imagine you must run out pretty quickly. They can install a standard electric water heater as a storage tank and that would help out quite a bit.

It’s actually not bad. Can do 2 showers simultaneously. When all the kids and grandkids are here it seems to be fine. Didn’t do a bath very well though. The temp was tweaked a few months ago (and may need to be lowered), so it might do a bath now. After the flood at our last home, I’ll never go for a tank again, but that was over 30 years ago, so I’d hope they’re better now.

 

[bfs3]

It’s actually not bad. Can do 2 showers simultaneously. When all the kids and grandkids are here it seems to be fine. Didn’t do a bath very well though. The temp was tweaked a few months ago (and may need to be lowered), so it might do a bath now. After the flood at our last home, I’ll never go for a tank again, but that was over 30 years ago, so I’d hope they’re better now.

Nice. If you’re happy that’s what matters. Most of the newer ones only do about 2.5 gpm which is about one shower. A couple brands and some of the older ones still do much better.

Honestly if anything they’re worse. Though some indirect ones are glass or aluminum lined and last forever. Standalone ones I’ve seen leak under their 6 yr warranty while some made by Ford and GE in CT basements have been working for 50 years.

 

[NJHusky]

As someone who has designed and sold HVAC systems in both CT and GA I can probably help a little here. to heat it.

Do you have a preferred brand for tankless hot water heaters? I just installed a Stiebel Eltron electric...seems to be working well so far
Would you install a water softener and scale filter together or is the water softener enough?

thx

 

[bfs3]

Do you have a preferred brand for tankless hot water heaters? I just installed a Stiebel Eltron electric...seems to be working well so far
Would you install a water softener and scale filter together or is the water softener enough?

thx

Rinnai and Bosch are the two I’ve had the best luck with. There are some distributors that sell Bosch under a house name for less. I’m not familiar enough with electric tankless water heaters to really give an opinion on those unfortunately. I would suggest installing the scale filter. Anything you can do to help it last longer is typically worth it. Since moving to GA I’ve dealt with plumbing quite a bit less than in CT. If I had one suggestion, when it comes to buying water heaters and boilers in CT, it’s almost always less expensive to call a plumber than an HVAC/plumbing combination company. One that only does Plumbing. Also, typically the smaller the company the less expensive they are (exceptions to every rule still exist).

 

[JohnFSilver]

A few years ago I bought my first house (built in the 90s) with all original mechanicals still chugging along. We have oil that fuels both the furnace (forced hot air) and hot water heater using oil burners, in addition to central A/C so the whole house is already ducted. I would like to upgrade all of this, preferably moving entirely away from oil. We are on borrowed time especially with the ol’ Superstor water heater ready to burst at the seams.

I see there are loads of incentives (energizeCT rebates + loans, federal tax credits) for heat pump units and hot water heaters, I just don’t know how well these perform in our climate and whether these are suitable replacements here.

I spoke to a couple HVAC tech’s who both mentioned that heat pumps need a backup heat source for cold days (<30 degrees F), yet I have seen units in my limited research that are rated for performance down to -15F.

I can recite the career stats of Ruslan Inyatkin on demand, but I simply don’t know jack about boilers, burners, furnaces, coils and that speak. Has anyone had a similar experience converting over these systems and can offer any helpful advice?

Heat pump, unless it is geothermal, extracts heat from the air. So, the colder it is the more the pump has to run. If you have a heat pump with baseboard, it will heat. You can also put on the heat as electric heat, usually called emergency heat on those units - that’s straight electric.

I had a heat pump, it doesn’t work as well as what I have now, a Liquid Propane or Natrual Has boiler. I use that with an indirect water heater and it is unlimited hot water and the heat is really efficient.

Love the wall hung system.

 

[FlockOfLambs]

Did you only have to replace the outdoor unit and not the air handler? I’m guessing your AC system used 410A refrigerant if that’s the case. Either that or you should share the name of your contractor before he goes out of business.
The only thing you can ADD to a heat pump to heat to zero is the electric strip heater. You’re better off just switching to your boiler when it gets too cold. It’ll serve the purpose of your back up heat.

If someone has an oil furnace (meaning hot air) and not an oil boiler, you can add a new coil and a Heat Pump condenser for that price.

Correct - I kept my existing air handler and got a compatible out door condenser with heat pump. I think my plan is to add the electric strip heater once my boiler kicks the bucket which frankly could be any day now. I don’t have the desire to cough up $9-$10k to replace it at this point if the heat pump/ strip heater combo could do the job.

 

[UConnJim]

I own a condo in NH ski country. When the unit was built in the 1980s, it was thought electricity prices were going to be cheap due to Seabrook so the heating systems and hot water heaters were all electric. Well, electricity prices in NH spiked and virtually all of the units in the complex installed Rinnai propane heaters to lower the heating bill. Recently, some in our complex have looked at heat pumps and they have come to the conclusion that the propane system was cheaper and worked better for heating, but some have installed heat pumps for cooling.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Maine is one of the biggest growth markets in the country for heat pumps. They must be able to function on some level in cold weather.

And Finland has lots of them. You know what those places have in common? Wood stoves.

 

[bfs3]

Correct - I kept my existing air handler and got a compatible out door condenser with heat pump. I think my plan is to add the electric strip heater once my boiler kicks the bucket which frankly could be any day now. I don’t have the desire to cough up $9-$10k to replace it at this point if the heat pump/ strip heater combo could do the job.

Yeah it’s a pretty inexpensive option. The heat strip is a few hundred bucks but they’ll need to increase your breaker size to a 50 AMP or more. The bigger your house the less sense it makes long term. I’ve seen electric bills of $600-$800 using only heat strips so just be mindful. I’d consider a wood stove or pellet stove if it makes sense in your house to offset the use. Could cost you a 1/3rd of the cost. Dry air is another downside but it’s solvable. Might be rough on the property value having a bunch of baseboard with no hot water running through it but that might not matter to you.

 

[drayenob]

Heat pumps definitely produce heat below 30 degrees lol. Here is a nice heat source cost comparison for CT and MA:

Heating Cost Comparison Calculator

There are some nice rebates available as well.

 

[bfs3]

Heat pumps definitely produce heat below 30 degrees lol. Here is a nice heat source cost comparison for CT and MA:

Heating Cost Comparison Calculator

There are some nice rebates available as well.

No standard split system air source heat pumps do not. Inverter ones do. That’s why Mitsubishi makes a “Hyper Heat” line. You can get those with a Mitsubishi air handler for $20K but it still won’t provide enough BTUs on cold nights for most homes. If you’re mistaking the heat strip then that’s understandable. Non HVAC ppl who give HVAC advice is why I make more than a doctor each year and why your HVAC company charges 10% more than they should. Really anyone in doubt should call for a quote, you’ll get free expert advice.

I helped write the rebates and trained the 3 inspectors in the Energize CT program. That tool is mostly BS as most houses are way more leaky than they know (unless brand new) and it doesn’t take into account the electric resistance that is heating your house after your heat pump condenser stops making 90 degree air. Unless it’s a magic heat pump.

 

[JohnFSilver]

It’s actually not bad. Can do 2 showers simultaneously. When all the kids and grandkids are here it seems to be fine. Didn’t do a bath very well though. The temp was tweaked a few months ago (and may need to be lowered), so it might do a bath now. After the flood at our last home, I’ll never go for a tank again, but that was over 30 years ago, so I’d hope they’re better now.

If you get a boiler, go indirect. tankless sucks, imo.

Indirect water heating is tremendous. The tank lasts forever and the water is heated by same fuel scoured as your heat. I had a tankless system with a oil fired boiler with a coil. The damn coil was destroyed twice in three years by hard water.

We capped the coil before and set up an indirect system. When we switched to LP, they just added a third zone for my water heater. It’s amazing.

For oil to LP conversion. I paid $10k. Setting up an indirect is about $3000. Those tanks don’t go bad. Some have lifetime warranties.

 

[bfs3]

If you get a boiler, go indirect. tankless sucks, imo.

Indirect water heating is tremendous. The tank lasts forever and the water is heated by same fuel scoured as your heat. I had a tankless system with a oil fired boiler with a coil. The damn coil was destroyed twice in three years by hard water.

We capped the coil before and set up an indirect system. When we diverted to LP, they just list added a third zone for my water heater. It’s amazing.

For oil to LP conversion. I paid $10k. Setting up an indirect is about $3000. Those tanks don’t go bad. Some have lifetime warranties.

Indirect are hands down the best. Price installed varies but a few years ago $3500 was the going rate, a little more if it’s not already set up for it. Aluminum I prefer over glass lined but both are 20+ years.

 

[NJHusky]

If you get a boiler, go indirect. tankless sucks, imo.

Indirect water heating is tremendous. The tank lasts forever and the water is heated by same fuel scoured as your heat. I had a tankless system with a oil fired boiler with a coil. The damn coil was destroyed twice in three years by hard water.

We capped the coil before and set up an indirect system. When we switched to LP, they just added a third zone for my water heater. It’s amazing.

For oil to LP conversion. I paid $10k. Setting up an indirect is about $3000. Those tanks don’t go bad. Some have lifetime warranties.

We have an indirect in our ski house...and it's great...even with both showers running for an hour with all the guests...no issues...but it takes a chunk of space.

Just installed a tankless to save space in my residence, and so far it's been fine too...but the gmp isn't quite as good

 

[uconntoatl]

A few years ago I bought my first house (built in the 90s) with all original mechanicals still chugging along. We have oil that fuels both the furnace (forced hot air) and hot water heater using oil burners, in addition to central A/C so the whole house is already ducted. I would like to upgrade all of this, preferably moving entirely away from oil. We are on borrowed time especially with the ol’ Superstor water heater ready to burst at the seams.

I see there are loads of incentives (energizeCT rebates + loans, federal tax credits) for heat pump units and hot water heaters, I just don’t know how well these perform in our climate and whether these are suitable replacements here.

I spoke to a couple HVAC tech’s who both mentioned that heat pumps need a backup heat source for cold days (<30 degrees F), yet I have seen units in my limited research that are rated for performance down to -15F.

I can recite the career stats of Ruslan Inyatkin on demand, but I simply don’t know jack about boilers, burners, furnaces, coils and that speak. Has anyone had a similar experience converting over these systems and can offer any helpful advice?

I work for an energy efficiency company on the Cape. Cold Climate Heat Pumps should work fine. There is a switch over temperature (aka a certain temperature) where it becomes more cost effective to run heat from other fuels if you have another backup heating system. One tie bit about heat pumps, they use the most energy when they are ramping up or down in temperature, so recommendation is to keep your thermostat a steady temperature, vs setting it back five degrees at night then ramping it back up during the day.

 

[drayenob]

No standard split system air source heat pumps do not. Inverter ones do. That’s why Mitsubishi makes a “Hyper Heat” line. You can get those with a Mitsubishi air handler for $20K but it still won’t provide enough BTUs on cold nights for most homes. If you’re mistaking the heat strip then that’s understandable. Non HVAC ppl who give HVAC advice is why I make more than a doctor each year and why your HVAC company charges 10% more than they should. Really anyone in doubt should call for a quote, you’ll get free expert advice.

I helped write the rebates and trained the 3 inspectors in the Energize CT program. That tool is mostly BS as most houses are way more leaky than they know (unless brand new) and it doesn’t take into account the electric resistance that is heating your house after your heat pump condenser stops making 90 degree air. Unless it’s a magic heat pump.

So thank you for confirming that heat pumps produce heat below 30 degrees.

Wouldn't leakiness remain constant across all heating types? The tool is useful because it shows the relative costs of different fuel types.

 

[Petero]

I live in Central New York (and still a rabid UConn fan) with a solar panel system and a ductless mini split system in a 4,200 sq ft 1850 farmhouse. Both have been installed over a year and here are our results.

We used our back up heat (a natural gas ducted furnace) just 2 days last winter only when the temp/wind chill reached -35. Normal lows can be and were -10 and we had no problems. New air source heat pumps are vastly better than even 3 yr old units. Don't worry about the "not below 30" scare tactics from traditional hvac guys. Our home is much more comfortable, has A/C (modestly used given where we live) and much quieter.

Our systems were installed in Oct and Nov and thus the solar production was low during the winter but by March we were producing enough to break even.The months April-October produced enough extra that I don't expect a bill of any size from now on. The air source system is 30% more efficient at making heat than a central heating system .

Before you make any decisions understand your rebates for your state, they do vary, and can make a difference in your $$$ invested and your payback. Combing solar and air source heat pumps is the ideal if you can swing it.

Finally, when it comes to choosing the actual units, research the options thoroughly.The brand name Co's produce units designed for different temperature zones. Prices can be steep if you chase the big boys. Some nonstandard names offer excellent products at 40% less with the same or better warranties. We chose units from a company named Senville, and their Artic Aura series which works to about -30f. The installer has had them in his own home for 3 years and had only things to say about them. After a full year we agree with him

Good luck.

 

[uconnfan68]

If you get a boiler, go indirect. tankless sucks, imo.

Indirect water heating is tremendous. The tank lasts forever and the water is heated by same fuel scoured as your heat. I had a tankless system with a oil fired boiler with a coil. The damn coil was destroyed twice in three years by hard water.

We capped the coil before and set up an indirect system. When we switched to LP, they just added a third zone for my water heater. It’s amazing.

For oil to LP conversion. I paid $10k. Setting up an indirect is about $3000. Those tanks don’t go bad. Some have lifetime warranties.

We just replaced the boiler (learning a lot in this thread). Uses oil and has tankless water heater. We only use about 4 tanks of oil a year (2 story colonial type, but only 1600-1700 sq ft), so we’re pleased with that. Only 2 of us left except when the kids visit. We just hope we’ve done our last major replacement. The golden years is when you lose all your gold.

 

[HuskyHawk]

So thank you for confirming that heat pumps produce heat below 30 degrees.

Wouldn't leakiness remain constant across all heating types? The tool is useful because it shows the relative costs of different fuel types.

It a below 30 right now, in early December. Can they handle this? Sure. Get a blanket. Can they handle January? No. Not realistically. It’s wishful thinking.

 

[Matrim55]

I live in Central New York (and still a rabid UConn fan) with a solar panel system and a ductless mini split system in a 4,200 sq ft 1850 farmhouse. Both have been installed over a year and here are our results.

We used our back up heat (a natural gas ducted furnace) just 2 days last winter only when the temp/wind chill reached -35. Normal lows can be and were -10 and we had no problems. New air source heat pumps are vastly better than even 3 yr old units. Don't worry about the "not below 30" scare tactics from traditional hvac guys. Our home is much more comfortable, has A/C (modestly used given where we live) and much quieter.

Our systems were installed in Oct and Nov and thus the solar production was low during the winter but by March we were producing enough to break even.The months April-October produced enough extra that I don't expect a bill of any size from now on. The air source system is 30% more efficient at making heat than a central heating system .

Before you make any decisions understand your rebates for your state, they do vary, and can make a difference in your $$$ invested and your payback. Combing solar and air source heat pumps is the ideal if you can swing it.

Finally, when it comes to choosing the actual units, research the options thoroughly.The brand name Co's produce units designed for different temperature zones. Prices can be steep if you chase the big boys. Some nonstandard names offer excellent products at 40% less with the same or better warranties. We chose units from a company named Senville, and their Artic Aura series which works to about -30f. The installer has had them in his own home for 3 years and had only things to say about them. After a full year we agree with him

Good luck.

What a great, in-depth post. Thanks for sharing.