He ain't heavy, he's my brother

[superjohn]

It's not based on his denials. Don't be fatuous.

He raked for 13 years after that 2003 list came out, was repeatedly subject to random testing, and never tested positive. His body shape never dramatically changed. Even when he was a rookie and "skinny," he looked like David Ortiz.

You're calling someone a juicer, you need to bring some evidence other than a list (from 13 years before his career ended) that MLB has said was unreliable. Putting aside actual evidence, where's your circumstantial evidence, other than your vibes?

So as I said before, he's either a great player or the world's greatest cheat. We'll agree to disagree as to which, but insisting that I'm merely taking him at his word is disingenuous. Good for quick likes from Sox haters, nothing more.

Averages a home run every 25.5 at bats in Minnesota for 5 or 6 seasons then goes to a team we now know was heavily juicing in a league full of juicing, and he's from a country where the # of juicers is staggering. He comes up on the juicer list in 2003 and gives his non-admission admission years later that he "never knowingly took steroids."

Over the next 14 seasons with the Red Sox he hits a home run every 14.8 at bats. He then went on to hit a home run every 14.4 at bats from the ages 38-40 and had arguably the best offensive season of his entire career at the age of 40. Only other player in MLB history to be as prolific a power hitter at those ages is Barry Bonds.

Yep, nothing to see here...chicken and broccoli.

 

[superjohn]

I gotta say, it's genuinely ludicrous that you're still doing this and insulting the other guy in this one. Every one of your takes is the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and humming while the other person talks.

Always with the drive-by, never adding anything to the conversation.

I asked you a simple question a couple days ago. You're team Nomar, you also think David Ortiz was clean?

 

[nomar]

Averages a home run every 25.5 at bats in Minnesota for 5 or 6 seasons then goes to a team we now know was heavily juicing in a league full of juicing, and he's from a country where the # of juicers is staggering. He comes up on the juicer list in 2003 and gives his non-admission admission years later that he "never knowingly took steroids."

Over the next 14 seasons with the Red Sox he hits a home run every 14.8 at bats. He then went on to hit a home run every 14.4 at bats from the ages 38-40 and had arguably the best offensive season of his entire career at the age of 40. Only other player in MLB history to be as prolific a power hitter at those ages is Barry Bonds.

Yep, nothing to see here...chicken and broccoli.

So you think he was the greatest cheater in sports history, got it. Thanks for confirming.

Long-time steroid usage is supposed to make your body break down. Amazing that he took PEDs for 13 years and continued to rake. Never changing his body shape. Never testing positive. Gotta hand it to him to avoid that and avoiding the ravages of steroids. Truly incredible.

You keep conflating time periods. Barry Bonds didn't start juicing until late in his career. If he started taking steroids at age 26 and never stopped, the odds of him performing like he did at 38 would have been very low. People usually point to injuries as evidence of PED usage. Which is exactly what you'd be arguing if Ortiz tailed off at age 33.

Your manipulation of stats is silly, too. Including his first couple seasons for an average? Why? Two years before he joined the Sox he averaged a HR every 16.8 AB. He got better the next year, and better the year after that. News flash: players get better until they peak.

Nobody knows for sure regarding numerous players but here you're throwing slop against the wall.

 

[superjohn]

So you think he was the greatest cheater in sports history, got it. Thanks for confirming.

Long-time steroid usage is supposed to make your body break down. Amazing that he took PEDs for 13 years and continued to rake. Never changing his body shape. Never testing positive. Gotta hand it to him to avoid that and avoiding the ravages of steroids. Truly incredible.

You keep conflating time periods. Barry Bonds didn't start juicing until late in his career. If he started taking steroids at age 26 and never stopped, the odds of him performing like he did at 38 would have been very low. People usually point to injuries as evidence of PED usage. Which is exactly what you'd be arguing if Ortiz tailed off at age 33.

Your manipulation of stats is silly, too. Including his first couple seasons for an average? Why? Two years before he joined the Sox he averaged a HR every 16.8 AB. He got better the next year, and better the year after that. News flash: players get better until they peak.

Nobody knows for sure regarding numerous players but here you're throwing slop against the wall.

That's not at all how steroids work.

I don't believe you're being honest in this entire interaction. If you are you have no clue what you're talking about but I have trouble believing that. I think fandom is making this all cloudy for you.

If you think Ortiz was the anomaly in the history of baseball, umm okay. I don't think you really believe that. Sometimes fandom makes us take untenable positions

It would take next level naivete for you to believe Ortiz is clean. Remember, we've talked outside this box, I don't really consider you a "rhymes with poop."

 

[MilliniumPrince]

Didn't Big PED test positive twice?

 

[Excalibur]

Didn't Big PED test positive twice?

No

 

[FfldCntyFan]

To be completely fair, MLB's drug testing has always been a joke and in all candor, with only a couple of exceptions (where news leaked outside of what they could control, forcing some suspensions) they caught only who they wanted to catch, less than significant players who by being suspended allowed the MLB to claim "we are punishing cheaters!".

The highest profile suispension, Alex Rodriguez, wasn't caught by failing an MLB drug test but from the fallout of a federal investigation of a Miami medical lab (Biogenesis). One high profile player (Ryan Braun), who's name leaked when it was intended to be buried (from MLB's subsequnt actions) ended up with a shortened suspension as for some reason, chain of custody of the sample was broken. MLB likes to claim they are serious but in reality they don't want their biggerer names sitting out partial or full seasons.

I still am stunned by the overall stupidity of the entiretly of MLB players being warned well in advance of the annonymous testing, being told that if the positives exceeded 5% then mandatory testing would begin the following year, yet they exceeded the players testing positive by nearly triple (13%).

 

[Umami Zen]

Not an attempt to extend the juicing discussion re: players any further- But- MLB has both confirmed and denied juicing baseballs over the last 10-15 years to improve offense and improve viewership of games. Combine that with corked bats and stolen signals to provide hitters with any advantage possible-And improved SnC conditioning during the season. Stuff happens.

Not even gonna comment on steroid/PED drug testing of MLB players. Makes no sense