Guards vs. Posts

[Dillon77]

Playing in another country, thousands of miles from home in front of a hostile crowd. I was at the 2014 World Cup in Istanbul, and the environment was unlike any NCAA or WNBA game I've ever seen. Beating Spain in Tenerife will require not just talent but toughness formed from experience.

I would say that Sky is excelling in the W, not dominating it.

What do you mean she hasn't played in hostile environments? She's been to Connecticut many times.


As Orangutan mentioned above, Sky lost a few seasons to recovering from that ACL. She also made a decision not to go overseas for a variety of reasons and due to her marketing income, didn't have to do so. She has says that she'd consider the right opportunity.

However, I have no worry that overseas league or not, she'd do just fine playing anywhere, anytime.

 

[CocoHusky]

Vandersloot deserves to be mentioned among the younger guards. Well on her way to leading the WNBA in assists for the 2nd year in a row (highest assist/game average in league history last season), and that's playing for a bad team without many scoring options. I realize the book is closed on her ever playing for US National Team in Olympics or other international competition, but she's certainly among the better guards under 28 or 30 or whatever the age cut off was mentioned above.

Courtney is not in the current pool of players for 2018 World cup.
USA Women's National Team
I think her decision to be part of the Hungarian National Program was a permanent decision.

 

[bballnut90]

Simone and Angel have earned the right to exit USA basketball on her own terms just like Catch did. World Cup is only a few months away and since neither has not announced a retirement form USA basketball like Whalen did I am betting both will be on the team in Sept. Should they be on the team? That's a different question.
Your team is light on guards only 4 and those guards are collectively very light on perimeter defense. Angel maybe the best perimeter defender that is not on your list. On your roster Neka and A'ja would be replacing Simone and Angel fair enough except Angel and Simone are SF/G. Neither Neka nor A'ja can play SF and they definitely can't play guard. Neka is not having the kind of season that would justify a slam dunk selection to this team. You maybe right about Bird and Taurasi being out of gas come 2020- I am personally not betting on it. Both have found the fountain of youth.
Can't cosign any thought whatsoever of McCowan being in consideration for the national team no matter how many strides she makes from now until 2020.

Players aren’t entitled to be on team USA because they’ve been on previous teams, especially when they’re well past their prime. If there are better options than a struggling Seimone Augustus, I don’t think she should make the roster. Similar to how I don’t think Cash or Jones should’ve made the roster in 2012. If Augustus makes a roster over a better player, USA will have no trouble winning, but I do think they’re wasting an opportunity to develop an up and coming younger player who can play a prominent role in future overseas competition. The roster is a little heavy on posts....if I made an adjustment I’d consider Hayes or Angel over Nneka, even though I feel Nneka is a better player than both. I also think Maya can comfortably play the 2, and having 4 top guards (including 3 who can play point) is plenty for depth at worlds.

And in regards to McCowan, she has a long way to go, but the progress she made from her sophomore to junior year was incredible. Another jump or two like that and she could be a powerhouse in the W. Her upside is astounding due to her frame, hands and knack for rebounding. Plus, if Australia continues to get better, she might be the best option to defend Cambage down the road.

 

[MilfordHusky]

What do you mean she hasn't played in hostile environments? She's been to Connecticut many times.


As Orangutan mentioned above, Sky lost a few seasons to recovering from that ACL. She also made a decision not to go overseas for a variety of reasons and due to her marketing income, didn't have to do so. She has says that she'd consider the right opportunity.

However, I have no worry that overseas league or not, she'd do just fine playing anywhere, anytime.

Sky may make the team anyway, but I think USABB would like to see overseas play on her resume. I'm not badmouthing Sky for not going. I understand the need to recover/rehab as well as other reasons for staying home. But I think she would benefit in several ways from playing overseas. I don't fully agree with your last sentence. The hostility is off the charts. It really takes experience. Ask Sue and Diana.

 

[CocoHusky]

Sky may make the team anyway, but I think USABB would like to see overseas play on her resume. I'm not badmouthing Sky for not going. I understand the need to recover/rehab as well as other reasons for staying home. But I think she would benefit in several ways from playing overseas. I don't fully agree with your last sentence. The hostility is off the charts. It really takes experience. Ask Sue and Diana.

To your point there is an interesting quote from Geno about Skylar and others from 2015.

"They’re (Diggins, Stefanie Dolson, Kayla McBride and Jantel Lavender) young pros with not a lot of international experience, and they’re all playing positions that are difficult to crack into the lineup,” Auriemma said in a press release.
Skylar Diggins reflects on getting cut from World Championships team

 

[eebmg]

To your point there is an interesting quote from Geno about Skylar and others from 2015.

"They’re (Diggins, Stefanie Dolson, Kayla McBride and Jantel Lavender) young pros with not a lot of international experience, and they’re all playing positions that are difficult to crack into the lineup,” Auriemma said in a press release.
Skylar Diggins reflects on getting cut from World Championships team

Another quote that I found interesting.

Though Diggins played for a rival of Auriemma’s Connecticut in college, they embraced following Diggins’ final Notre Dame game, a 2013 NCAA Tournament semifinal defeat to UConn.

“He told me not to let this game define my legacy and said I have done more for the sport than some people who have won four national championships,” Diggins said then,

 

[CocoHusky]

Another quote that I found interesting.

Though Diggins played for a rival of Auriemma’s Connecticut in college, they embraced following Diggins’ final Notre Dame game, a 2013 NCAA Tournament semifinal defeat to UConn.

“He told me not to let this game define my legacy and said I have done more for the sport than some people who have won four national championships,” Diggins said then,

Skylar first verbalized those words to Holly Rowe in a post game interview at 2013 Semi-Final .

 

[MSSportsGuy]

I will bite due to insomnia.

I agree with the poster the US has a bevy of incredible forwards and centers where its guard depth just isn't the same. I don't watch much WNBA but look at stats. I was blown away by how good Bird and Taurasi looked and how well they played in 2016 at the Olympics. Their stats this season continue to defy the odds but the won't play forever.

Part of this discussion goes back to the 14 World team. Diggins just missed the cut after having a terrific season in the W. Sims was actually on the roster. Of course so were Dupree and Nneka due to injuries. Those 3 were gone in 16 for a healthy Fowles, veteran Catch and new blood EDD. Diggins injury no doubt set her back and it's quite possible she would have been on the 16 roster but she wasn't back to peak playing condition. She appears to have fully recovered and is having a great year.

I foolishly posted in 16 that Fowles should have been left off the roster (I was wrong, Sylvia has been superb the last few years) as well as Angel or possibly Augustus (debatable, as both played well in the Olympic games and have been committed to the national team). My rationale for this was largely that it was time for the US to develop young guards. My hunch is that Geno was just comfortable with most of his 12 and 14 rosters and knew it was his last go around.

I'm not sure if Dawn will keep Augustus and Angel around this time or not. I would say both deserve to go out on their terms but there is that part of me that agrees if there are better players at the trials they should make it over the vets. Diggins-Smith would definitely make my team and I would try to find at least one more young guard to start grooming.

 

[baggerbob]

Griner, Fowles,Charles, A'ja, Stewie, Edd, Maya, Sue, Diana, Skylar, and McBride belong on the 2018 team. Add one more to get to 12.

 

[Orangutan]

Sky may make the team anyway, but I think USABB would like to see overseas play on her resume. I'm not badmouthing Sky for not going. I understand the need to recover/rehab as well as other reasons for staying home. But I think she would benefit in several ways from playing overseas. I don't fully agree with your last sentence. The hostility is off the charts. It really takes experience. Ask Sue and Diana.

The thing that gets me is that Stewie and EDD were able to walk right onto the team with no international experience. Yet, somehow it is made out be a big hole in Skylar's resume.

It strikes me as justifying a decision after the fact. Which isn't necessarily to say that the decision was wrong. I just don't think that's actually why the decision was made.

If international play is so important, McBride should be a lock for the Worlds team. She was the top scorer in Euroleague last year.

 

[UConnCat]

The point guard position is much different than other positions on the floor because of the decision-making responsibilities. Seems to me you want your national team point guard to have as much experience as possible making decisions under duress, when the stakes are the highest. There is no point guard more battle tested than Sue Bird (2 NCs, 2 WNBA championships, 4 Olympic gold medals, 5 Russian League championships, 4 Euroleague championships). Taurasi's resume is even more impressive. Whalen had an impressive resume before retiring from international basketball. That experience doesn't guarantee anything, but I'd think USA BB would want its floor general to have as much big-game experience as possible when competing for the World Cup and Olympic gold.

Young guards like Chelsea Gray are building their resumes. Gray has a WNBA championship and has now been to 2 WNBA finals and played very well. She has won a Spanish league championship.

Diggins's resume to date consists of 1 Big East championship in college and 1 WNBA playoff game (a loss last season). Part of that is circumstance (bad WNBA team and injury) and some of that is her choosing not to build her resume overseas. In the past I've questioned her decision-making down the stretch in close WNBA games. The upcoming WNBA playoffs will be her opportunity to prove a lot to USA Basketball.

 

[Orangutan]

For the sake of argument, let's stipulate that Diggins' status with USAB is in part dependent on the Wings' playoff performance. I postulate (and I don't think this is controversial) that the reason the Wings have gone from also-rans to apparent contenders this year is Cambage.

Therefore, the future of USAB at point guard is in part dependent on the performance of an Australian center?

 

[UConnCat]

These 2 built quite the resumes together. Two WNBA championships and multiple Russian/European championships.

 

[Dillon77]

To your point there is an interesting quote from Geno about Skylar and others from 2015.

"They’re (Diggins, Stefanie Dolson, Kayla McBride and Jantel Lavender) young pros with not a lot of international experience, and they’re all playing positions that are difficult to crack into the lineup,” Auriemma said in a press release.
Skylar Diggins reflects on getting cut from World Championships team

And the second part of that particular Geno quote:
“Every one of those players that weren’t chosen will be a huge part of USA Basketball going forward. It’s just like so many before them, this is not the right time.”

Sky and K-Mac are two of the guards that have been brought up on this thread. K-Mac has played extensively in and distinguished herself in the Euros. (I'll get to Sky in another post...).

 

[baggerbob]

The thing that gets me is that Stewie and EDD were able to walk right onto the team with no international experience. Yet, somehow it is made out be a big hole in Skylar's resume.

It strikes me as justifying a decision after the fact. Which isn't necessarily to say that the decision was wrong. I just don't think that's actually why the decision was made.

If international play is so important, McBride should be a lock for the Worlds team. She was the top scorer in Euroleague last year.

I already gave my take on who belongs on the team, and sorry but the USA team doesn't owe people to go out when they want. The job of the committee is to send the best team to win the Gold, and Griner, Fowles, Charles, Edd, Stewie, A'ja, Maya, Sue, Diana, Skyler, McBride give the USA the best chance. That leaves 1 slot to be filled.

 

[nwhoopfan]

There's a great big Catch 22 going on here. Some posters want international experience for the National Team, but at some point you have to make the team in order to get that experience. If it's the same players every go around, no new players are ever going to get any experience. At some point soon a bunch of the old stalwarts are going to be done playing. Would it be better to bring in 2 or 3 or 4 new players for the next Olympic cycle, or a whole bunch more new players in '24? Somehow, some way, somebody else is going to be playing for the National Team at some point. You can either phase in a few now or a whole bunch later.

And I don't understand this philosophy of "so and so has earned the right to go out on her own terms." Couldn't disagree more. It's an honor, not a right to be on the National Team. If a player can't contribute much anymore, get out of the way and let someone else have the roster slot. Especially if the player has already been on 3 or 4 Olympic teams. She's had her turn.

 

[MSSportsGuy]

I tend to agree with what you said. I don't mention international experience as being a requisite because players have made the team without it before and performed quite well. I agree the job is to put together the best team to win gold and that's by picking the most deserving players. We also all know the US has more than 12 players who are more than capable of being on the roster so inevitably someone deserving gets left out.

What I've said about Augustus and Angel and their own terms is due to their commitment over multiple cycles and the fact they still good contributors on their teams just means maybe that should be given some consideration when making a final decision. I agree they've had their turn but don't believe a player should be forced out if they want to play and willingly accept whatever role they are given.

The start of the topic was how most of the major stars these days are post players and pointing out the US should utilize the relatively young guards to help carry the load after Bird and Taurasi retire, which will happen. All the names that have been thrown around appear like they would be good choices for the team.

It was discussed

 

[diggerfoot]

This thread features a false equivalency, comparing USA basketball to a job. When an employee shows loyalty in the workplace they often are allowed to go out on their terms, such as when players on a team stay on beyond their prime. Yet making a national team is an honor being bestowed based on job performance, not job loyalty. An employer may feel honored that an employee show loyalty to a company for so long, but being chosen to represent your company (national team) should be an honor felt by the employee, not the employer. A more accurate equivalency would be an Olympian in an individual sport. Should we allow Phelps to compete until he is ready to go out on his terms? Or should the decision always be made based on performance?

A team sport is a little different, as the blend is more important than the individual sum of the parts, but the same basic principle applies. USA basketball bestows an honor, not receives one through loyalty, and should not deprive any athlete of receiving a bestowed honor at any time just because of the wants of an individual whose performance is less deserving.

 

[baggerbob]

The thing that gets me is that Stewie and EDD were able to walk right onto the team with no international experience. Yet, somehow it is made out be a big hole in Skylar's resume.

It strikes me as justifying a decision after the fact. Which isn't necessarily to say that the decision was wrong. I just don't think that's actually why the decision was made.

If international play is so important, McBride should be a lock for the Worlds team. She was the top scorer in Euroleague last year.

Stewie had played FIBA at every level and won gold, so she was very familiar with the International game. Stewie actually started competing Internationally as an 8th grader.

 

[Orangutan]

Stewie had played FIBA at every level and won gold, so she was very familiar with the International game. Stewie actually started competing Internationally as an 8th grader.

Right. Diggins won 4 gold medals with USAB at youth levels. So the comparison stands.

 

[eebmg]

Right. Diggins won 4 gold medals with USAB at youth levels. So the comparison stands.

International Exp is just coach speak and I think plays little role in final decisions In the end, it is the skill sets of the players that matter. Regarding Stewie and EDD, it was easier for them to stand out as unique long and agile posts (Unicorns) who can shoot from anywhere. (Let the CP3 fans come out now ) .

It is harder for guards (not named DT/ Bird) to stand out among the rest of the competition. I would also say that in the last few years, EDD and Stewie are no longer as unique as before as a flood of posts are coming into the league with good shooting and overall basketball skills.

 

[baggerbob]

Right. Diggins won 4 gold medals with USAB at youth levels. So the comparison stands.

If you notice I'm one of the people who has said Skyler should be on the team.

 

[UConnCat]

There have been some players who've made USA BB's WNT while in college or after graduating and completing their first WNBA season. Those players include Holdsclaw, Parker, Bird, Taurasi, Moore, Stewart and Sims. There may be others. Griner took herself out of the running for a spot on the 2012 Olympic team.

Others make the team based on their play in the WNBA and overseas. USA BB does pay attention to what players do overseas and has mentioned the importance of exposure to the international game. Playing overseas can be a way to improve your resume when your WNBA team doesn't make the playoffs.

Griner, EDD and Diggins all graduated in 2013. Griner made the 2014 world championship team and EDD and Diggins did not. EDD may have been ill (Lyme disease) while Sims was chosen over Diggins. Sims and Stewart (still in college) played very little in Istanbul.

In looking at the competition at point guard I'd guess Diggins or Gray or both make the team. The fact that Jasmine Thomas was just added to the pool suggests that USA BB is not satisfied with how certain point guard candidates are looking this summer. Clarendon and Sims have been so-so; Plum and Mitchell don't seem ready. Gray and Diggins are having the best regular seasons of the point guards not named Bird.