Geno On Under-Officiated" Paige: Daniel Connolly | The Boneyard

Geno On Under-Officiated" Paige: Daniel Connolly

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I get what Geno is saying, but the reason Paige goes to the line less than some others is because she takes less shots. If you look at the number of FTAs per FGA this season Paige has 69 FTAs on 228 FGAs for a rate of 0.303 FTAs per FGA. Looking at the other players mentioned, Clark is 146/483/.302, Olsen is 108/423/0.255, and Hidalgo is 119/341/0.349. Paige is actually getting the same treatment as Clark, and it's really only Hidalgo of that group that gets the better whistle.
 
Isn't the real question: "Why are they allowing so much rough play?" Let's say that the .3 ratio of FTA to FGA is about right. What do the fouls look like (something a stat can't capture) today compared to 20 years ago? I'm open to being shown that it was as bad "back then" as it is now. But I don't think so.
 
hoopsfan22 said:
I get what Geno is saying, but the reason Paige goes to the line less than some others is because she takes less shots. If you look at the number of FTAs per FGA this season Paige has 69 FTAs on 228 FGAs for a rate of 0.303 FTAs per FGA. Looking at the other players mentioned, Clark is 146/483/.302, Olsen is 108/423/0.255, and Hidalgo is 119/341/0.349. Paige is actually getting the same treatment as Clark, and it's really only Hidalgo of that group that gets the better whistle.
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Just Geno doing his job, lobbying for more whistles... good for him, and possibly for Paige and the Huskies. I hope it helps.
 
The per-fga stat may miss Geno’s point, since he seems more focused on how she is knocked off her cuts too often. He complained about this with regard to Lou last season too. Many of us wondered then if the refs weren’t paying consistent attention to freedom of movement rules. Of course he’s lobbying for better treatment of his star, as @The deacon says. But he may not be wrong. I also suspect Paige is intrepid and throws herself into some kinds of plays more riskily (she plays with abandon) than other players. This may produce fouls the refs aren’t in the habit of looking for.
 
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Bone Dog said:
The per-fga stat may miss Geno’s point, since he seems more focused on how she is knocked off her cuts too often. He complained about this with regard to Lou last season too. Many of us wondered then if the refs weren’t paying consistent attention to freedom of movement rules. Of course he’s lobbying for better treatment of his star, as @The deacon says. But he may not be wrong. I also suspect Paige is intrepid and throws herself into some kinds of plays more riskily (she plays with abandon) than other players. This may produce fouls the refs aren’t in the habit of looking for.
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I didn't listen to the pod, but the article specifically mentions Paige not getting to the free throw line as much as the others. Getting bumped off your cut doesn't get you to the free throw line unless you're in the bonus which most of the time you are not, and thus wouldn't be much help in explaining a statistical anomaly. TBH I worry more about Aaliyah. Some of the stuff that goes on in the low post almost resembles what you'd see in a WWE match, and she takes the most physical battering of anyone. Fortunately for us those Canadian kids are tuff.
 
gandydancer said:
Over the years I don't recall anyone being as physically abused as DT (which makes her achievements even more remarkable). She was continuously grabbed and bumped, with no calls, especially against ND. I also recall ND making creative use of their fingernails.
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I agree with your observation but would not limit it to ND. More and more teams apply the “if you can’t beat them, beat them up” game plan against UConn, except now we describe it as the more politically correct “aggressive play”. Some time back I wrote that DT looked like a silver ball on a pinball machine. The same can be said about Paige.
 
Pharos said:
Isn't the real question: "Why are they allowing so much rough play?" Let's say that the .3 ratio of FTA to FGA is about right. What do the fouls look like (something a stat can't capture) today compared to 20 years ago? I'm open to being shown that it was as bad "back then" as it is now. But I don't think so.
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I just watched the "leader" film strip to THE JACKIE STYLES STORY (because C Clark just past Jackie on the Career list.) In
that highlight "leader" to the documentary on Jackie, the commentator comments on the punishment that Jackie's
body took in her career. Those interested can GOOGLE " THE JACKIE STYLES STORY" for more film clips. Jackie
almost singlehandedly beat # 1 seed DUKE in the NCAA "SWEET SIXTEEN" when she scored 41 points for her
# 5 ranked Southwest Missouri State team. No three pointers back then.
 
I've often thought that UConn bumps a lot of opposing players when playing aggressive defense which frequently doesn't result in fouls being called. To complain about Paige's treatment could alter the way that refs officiate against the rest of the team. Geno & UConn fans need to take the good with the bad.
 
The article states, "She’s been poked in the eye twice ...."
I'm not sure what that has to do with the price of rice.
That's why there's specially designed eye protection for BB just like Ayanna wears.
Paige should try wearing eye protection, maybe it could result in an endorsement deal.
How many times should a player get poked before they realize that pokes are an occupational hazard of BB.
 
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Zarathustra said:
I just watched the "leader" film strip to THE JACKIE STYLES STORY (because C Clark just past Jackie on the Career list.) In
that highlight "leader" to the documentary on Jackie, the commentator comments on the punishment that Jackie's
body took in her career. Those interested can GOOGLE " THE JACKIE STYLES STORY" for more film clips. Jackie
almost singlehandedly beat # 1 seed DUKE in the NCAA "SWEET SIXTEEN" when she scored 41 points for her
# 5 ranked Southwest Missouri State team. No three pointers back then.
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Stiles shot 44.4% on 3s over 4 years in college.

In Stiles: Jackie's career statistics

Take a look at Jackie Stiles' career stats as the SMS senior chases the NCAA scoring mark, and see how she compares to Kansas legend Lynette Woodard.
a.espncdn.com
 
The game has gotten more physical overall, and there are a lot of scrappier teams that try to make up for a talent deficit by muddying a game up.

I’m not sure Paige gets beat up more than other star players, although I do hold my breath every time I see her get bumped. Sometimes it seems that way I guess, because she demands the biggest amount of opponents defensive attention.

If Geno was talking about the ND game, I’m not sure I agree they were overly physical in a way that was a problem. I hate to say it but I think their defense on Paige was just…very good. I’ve almost never Paige be shut down so effectively.
 
Bone Dog said:
The per-fga stat may miss Geno’s point, since he seems more focused on how she is knocked off her cuts too often. He complained about this with regard to Lou last season too. Many of us wondered then if the refs weren’t paying consistent attention to freedom of movement rules. Of course he’s lobbying for better treatment of his star, as @The deacon says. But he may not be wrong. I also suspect Paige is intrepid and throws herself into some kinds of plays more riskily (she plays with abandon) than other players. This may produce fouls the refs aren’t in the habit of looking for.
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If we look at KK, most of her free throw attempts occur after contact, driving to the basket. In contrast, Ashlynn Shade doesn't get to the free throw line as much - she mostly a spot up shooter for now. Most of Caitlin Clark's free throw attempts are from drives to the basket where she is the initiator in making contact. Lucy Olsen does not steer away from contact, she seems to invite it.

In contrast, Paige's pull-up jumper separates herself from the defender, resulting in less fouls called. When she does drive to the basket, she uses her skill to get the shot off, seldom relying on using her body as a shield to create space. Clark, on the other hand does so to maximum effect.

In my opinion, refs are like the rest of use, guilty of subjective tendencies. Once a pattern or reputation is established, it seldom deviates. For example, Cameron Brink became known for fouling in her freshman year. I feel she is still stigmatized by that reputation, even in her senior season. She is a superstar, but doesn't seem to get the benefit of the doubt, especially on incidental contact.

Maybe I am biased, but I do feel Paige should get to the free throw line more. Unfortunately, I don't believe it will change, regardless of any Geno antics. Her game is predicated on skill, not physicality.
 
Surly1 said:
In my opinion, refs are like the rest of use, guilty of subjective tendencies. Once a pattern or reputation is established, it seldom deviates. For example, Cameron Brink became known for fouling in her freshman year. I feel she is still stigmatized by that reputation, even in her senior season. She is a superstar, but doesn't seem to get the benefit of the doubt, especially on incidental contact.
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Good post overall and this part really struck me. Brink does seem to suffer from this holdover effect from freshman year. It may not help that she’s such a good shot blocker. Boston was also a great shot blocker and got away with at least as much contact as Brink. Did she have a reputation to get out from under?
 
Hedge said:
It looked to me that UConn turned Lucy Olsen into a pinata in the second half last night. It's easy to just look at the Huskies being pushed around.
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Agreed, Hedge. While watching the game as I observed comments coming through in the Chatroom, I got a kick out of BYers urging the Huskies to more aggressively double-team Lucy. I just made one comment, that what some might call 'double-teams' occasionally turned out to be mauling Olsen whenever she tried to make a move. It was no wonder she didn't score in the fourth quarter.

I'm all for refs protecting Paige and other Huskies, but it does work both ways. Aaliyah, Nika and KK probably most of all might be called for more fouls if refs start to tighten it up.
 
hoopsfan22 said:
I get what Geno is saying, but the reason Paige goes to the line less than some others is because she takes less shots. If you look at the number of FTAs per FGA this season Paige has 69 FTAs on 228 FGAs for a rate of 0.303 FTAs per FGA. Looking at the other players mentioned, Clark is 146/483/.302, Olsen is 108/423/0.255, and Hidalgo is 119/341/0.349. Paige is actually getting the same treatment as Clark, and it's really only Hidalgo of that group that gets the better whistle.
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For reasons that are not clear to me, officials seem to dramatically favor stockier or more muscular players. This is even more noticeable in the men's game. Hidalgo is very talented and very quick but when she or other players like her seem to deliberately initiate contact to bump into opponents or bump them out of the way IMHO it should only result in a no call or an offensive foul but they zebras love to reward such action.
 
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huskyharry said:
For reasons that are not clear to me, officials seem to dramatically favor stockier or more muscular players. This is even more noticeable in the men's game. Hidalgo is very talented and very quick but when she or other players like her seem to deliberately initiate contact to bump into opponents or bump them out of the way IMHO it should only result in a no call or an offensive foul but they zebras love to reward such action.
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It’s also about quickness. Bumping into a defender on a drive is theoretically about who gets there first. Unlike a charge call, this one doesn’t typically result in a whistle on the offensive player if they don’t get there first. That’s just a no call. Hidalgo mainly tends to get there first. Of course, this is a very difficult call to make so I think the benefit of the doubt often goes to the offensive player if it’s unclear.
 
sun said:
The article states, "She’s been poked in the eye twice ...."
I'm not sure what that has to do with the price of rice.
That's why there's specially designed eye protection for BB just like Ayanna wears.
Paige should try wearing eye protection, maybe it could result in an endorsement deal.
How many times should a player get poked before they realize that pokes are an occupational hazard of BB.
Expand ...

So rather than call fouls as they should be, your solution is that players wear combat gear?
 
hoopsfan22 said:
I get what Geno is saying, but the reason Paige goes to the line less than some others is because she takes less shots. If you look at the number of FTAs per FGA this season Paige has 69 FTAs on 228 FGAs for a rate of 0.303 FTAs per FGA. Looking at the other players mentioned, Clark is 146/483/.302, Olsen is 108/423/0.255, and Hidalgo is 119/341/0.349. Paige is actually getting the same treatment as Clark, and it's really only Hidalgo of that group that gets the better whistle.
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I am mulling over the metric.

Case 1. If you take a shot and make it and get fouled, and the foul gets called, that's one FGA and one FTA.

Case 2. If you take a shot and miss it and get fouled, and the foul gets called, that's zero FGA and two FTAs.

Case 3. If you take a shot and make it and get fouled, and the foul doesn't gets called that's one FGA and zero FTAs.

Case 4. If you take a shot and miss it and get fouled, and the foul doesn't gets called that's one FGA and zero FTAs.

While it seems plausible that the number of FGAs serves as a surrogate as a measure of how active you are as a shooter, the concern is how many case 3 and case 4 situations there are, and I'm not sure the ratio of free-throw attempts to field goal attempts tells that story.

(and this doesn't even include getting bumped off the cut and being fouled without even having the ball)
 
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Blueballer said:
So rather than call fouls as they should be, your solution is that players wear combat gear?
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Not everything that happens on the court is a foul.
Here's a latest play that shows Caitlin Clark getting elbowed in the ear & it wasn't called as a foul.
The players are moving simultaneously.
Don't you agree that getting poked is an occupational hazard?
How does calling a foul prevent Paige's eye from getting poked?
Calling a foul only punishes the team after the fact while wearing eye protection would prevent it.
Calling it combat gear doesn't mean that it's a bad idea to wear eye protection.

 
sun said:
Not everything that happens on the court is a foul.
Here's a latest play that shows Caitlin Clark getting elbowed in the ear & it wasn't called as a foul.
The players are moving simultaneously.
Don't you agree that getting poked is an occupational hazard?
How does calling a foul prevent Paige's eye from getting poked?
Calling a foul only punishes the team after the fact while wearing eye protection would prevent it.
Calling it combat gear doesn't mean that it's a bad idea to wear eye protection.

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I'm not questioning Caitlin's honesty, but I see contact with the body but not to the head. What am I missing?
 
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First off, we can all agree that Paige gets bounced around an awful lot, and many of those bounces could be called fouls. We can probably also all agree that refereeing in the women's college game is far from what we would like it to be. But when it comes to how officiating is going to go in any given game, if it's called more or less evenly, I don't know that there is much to complain about.

We can all disagree with a given call. Just look at Nika, who disagrees with every foul they call on her. But to mangle the old saying, in UConn games, I am not sure which team is the goose and which is the gander. It's one thing if one team is obviously getting all the breaks (just to digress for a second, I seem to recall a recent game when UConn had shot a bunch of foul shots at the half and the opponent, whoever it was, had shot none. Is that an accurate reflection of the way the two teams played, or ref bias?). But if that is not the case, I don't know how much complaining is justified.

Geno has started a PR campaign. Given how valuable Paige is and how few other players he has, he is absolutely right to do so. With luck, it will pay off by the end of the season and in the tournament.
 
MilfordHusky said:
I'm not questioning Caitlin's honesty, but I see contact with the body but not to the head. What am I missing?
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If you're not questioning her honesty, Milford, why the post?:(

By the way, they showed another angle on the Peacock broadcast that showed clearly she got clipped on the ear.
 
hoopsfan22 said:
I get what Geno is saying, but the reason Paige goes to the line less than some others is because she takes less shots. If you look at the number of FTAs per FGA this season Paige has 69 FTAs on 228 FGAs for a rate of 0.303 FTAs per FGA. Looking at the other players mentioned, Clark is 146/483/.302, Olsen is 108/423/0.255, and Hidalgo is 119/341/0.349. Paige is actually getting the same treatment as Clark, and it's really only Hidalgo of that group that gets the better whistle.
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I like the stats but I think there is a flaw in them and it is this. Paige drives more through traffic and gets hammered more underneath when she does, a lot more than Clark. There were at least 3 times last night that I could see with good angle seats in Nova where the body fouling was ridiculous. Hidalgo is a better comparison because she finishes drives. I don't think you can use the stats unless you use a shot chart comparison which is way too much work even if you could get it. The refs treat CC like the superstar that she is, they don't do the same for Paige. Reminds me of Magic's crack when they were photographing the famous cover of SI for the Dream Team with Larry and MJ. Magic told Larry not to stand too close to MJ or they would call a foul on him. By the eye test, Paige gets fewer calls and gets fouled incessantly.
 
hoopsfan22 said:
I get what Geno is saying, but the reason Paige goes to the line less than some others is because she takes less shots. If you look at the number of FTAs per FGA this season Paige has 69 FTAs on 228 FGAs for a rate of 0.303 FTAs per FGA. Looking at the other players mentioned, Clark is 146/483/.302, Olsen is 108/423/0.255, and Hidalgo is 119/341/0.349. Paige is actually getting the same treatment as Clark, and it's really only Hidalgo of that group that gets the better whistle.
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She also finishes falling away from the basket. Want to get foul calls? Go to the rim.
 
gandydancer said:
Over the years I don't recall anyone being as physically abused as DT (which makes her achievements even more remarkable). She was continuously grabbed and bumped, with no calls, especially against ND.
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That’s what legends do……
 
The deacon said:
Just Geno doing his job, lobbying for more whistles... good for him, and possibly for Paige and the Huskies. I hope it helps.
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Yes it's his job just like every other coach to lobby officials and the stats presented by hoopsfan22 confirms this is just more lobbying.
 
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