Geno and UConn and NIL

[Skeets]

All said and done, I hope you are right, just understand I won't be betting the mortgage money on it. I just look at the sure thing dynasties in BB. Men's UCLA, women's Tenn. any other you wish. No team has ever continued to be the top dog after a legend has retired, ever.
We are still at the top, the longest run in BB ever, men's or women's. If we find the right coach, we can remain an excellent team. It isn't realistic to expect any hire to match what the Geno years brought us. No coach in history has come close to doing what Geno and staff have accomplished. Right now, there is one coach above all others that I would trust in enough to hand the team to. Shea.

Or Carla. After Geno and CD leave will it be the same? Absolutely not, but the UConn brand will still be the UConn brand. UCLA is still UCLA and Tenn is still Tenn. What will be interesting is the next coach's approach to the portal. Will the new coach be very selective with the portal like Geno or go nuts as some programs have? I feel abandoning 4 year player development would hurt the UConn brand. I don't think Carla or Shea would do that.

 

[Bone Dog]

Or Carla. After Geno and CD leave will it be the same? Absolutely not, but the UConn brand will still be the UConn brand. UCLA is still UCLA and Tenn is still Tenn. What will be interesting is the next coach's approach to the portal. Will the new coach be very selective with the portal like Geno or go nuts as some programs have? I feel abandoning 4 year player development would hurt the UConn brand. I don't think Carla or Shea would do that.

I’m not sure “Tenn is still Tenn.” Caldwell seems to be well on the way to making Tenn a formidable program again. But there doesn’t seem to be a lot of continuity with the program Pat built. Choosing successors from the coaching tree seems not to have worked for Tenn and a break began to look attractive.

I’m with you and would like to see someone like Shea or Carla have a shot at extending the dynasty, if they want it. We’re both believers in the creed of 4 year player development, as are most folks here. But I’m not at all confident that a simple hand-off will be enough to achieve the sort of continuity we all long for. I suspect there will be some stretch of wandering in the desert, so to speak, before the torch can be relit. The real question is whether we, the fans, will be patient enough to let that process play out. Maybe this last dry spell willl teach us all patience.

 

[oldude]

Maybe this last dry spell willl teach us all patience.

I love your optimism……

 

[BBallF]

No. It was NOT created by the NCAA. It was forced down the throat of the NCAA by the courts,

That's very true. The transfer portal however was from the NCAA, no doubt created due to the fact that there was so much criticism and litigation over the old "hardship" rules that were so unevenly applied by them. I think there is a great deal of misunderstanding by BYers and the public about how this all came about, the rules, what is happening now, the effects on college and high school sports and all the unintended consequences of the current system and policies. 14 teams from the SEC in the men's NCAA Tournament this year. You don't need a roadmap to see the future here if something isn't done on a federal level.

 

[Bone Dog]

14 teams from the SEC in the men's NCAA Tournament this year. You don't need a roadmap to see the future here if something isn't done on a federal level.

You’re probably not wrong overall. But I really can’t see why this is a matter of federal concern, unless of course there’s some fraud or other crime being committed. Otherwise, I would not want my congressman paying any attention to it, no matter how much it threatens to change college athletics. I certainly wouldn’t want them to get talked into carving out some sort of exemption for the NCAA or any related organization.

 

[BBallF]

You’re probably not wrong overall. But I really can’t see why this is a matter of federal concern, unless of course there’s some fraud or other crime being committed. Otherwise, I would not want my congressman paying any attention to it, no matter how much it threatens to change college athletics. I certainly wouldn’t want them to get talked into carving out some sort of exemption for the NCAA or any related organization.

The reason there has to be a federal solution is because any system that tries to regulate the portal and NIL and which necessarily imposes contracts, buy outs, salary caps, restrictions on transfers, limits on salaries etc. will need anti-trust exemption which only Congress can give. Otherwise the regulations will be monopolistic and illegal and the current Wild West system will continue and get worse. There is already a bill being formed in the Senate and supposedly co-sponsored by Booker of New Jersey and Cruz of Texas to address the issues. As the OP already noted, the courts created the Nil and that rabbit ain't going back in the hat by itself.

I also dread the idea of legislation happening but the NCAA is soon paying out 2.7 billion in a settlement for athletes going back to 2015 if the Court approves it and they will not try anything new at all unless they know it is airtight and legal. Like I said previously, we all need to have better information about what is happening and why.

I know we blame the NCAA for so many things but they are almost pathologically consistent in their failures and missteps. This latest Regional misadventure in Spokane for the basketball women with the teams having to stay in Idaho was just emblematic of the worst sports management one can imagine. Like Geno said, imagine if the men had to do the same thing.

 

[Bone Dog]

… and the current Wild West system will continue and get worse.

I think I understand what you’re getting at, and what strikes me about it is a presupposition that some sort of regulation is necessary. As long as that’s true, then it should become a federal case, merely because it’s an interstate commerce problem.

But is there really a problem with “the current Wild West system”? Or better, what exactly is wrong with it? Kids are playing sports in college. And they’re going to classes. And most of them are graduating with degrees and going on to productive lives. Sure, NIL and the Portal are undermining our pleasure in watching them play, and the sort of basketball we’d like to see more of is threatened. But this does not appear to be something our government needs to respond to, and perhaps should not pay any attention to.

 

[Skeets]

I’m not sure “Tenn is still Tenn.” Caldwell seems to be well on the way to making Tenn a formidable program again. But there doesn’t seem to be a lot of continuity with the program Pat built. Choosing successors from the coaching tree seems not to have worked for Tenn and a break began to look attractive.

I’m with you and would like to see someone like Shea or Carla have a shot at extending the dynasty, if they want it. We’re both believers in the creed of 4 year player development, as are most folks here. But I’m not at all confident that a simple hand-off will be enough to achieve the sort of continuity we all long for. I suspect there will be some stretch of wandering in the desert, so to speak, before the torch can be relit. The real question is whether we, the fans, will be patient enough to let that process play out. Maybe this last dry spell willl teach us all patience.

Hmm, you could be right. After all who did they beat this year? Oh wait, they beat UConn.

 

[Skeets]

The reason there has to be a federal solution is because any system that tries to regulate the portal and NIL and which necessarily imposes contracts, buy outs, salary caps, restrictions on transfers, limits on salaries etc. will need anti-trust exemption which only Congress can give. Otherwise the regulations will be monopolistic and illegal and the current Wild West system will continue and get worse. There is already a bill being formed in the Senate and supposedly co-sponsored by Booker of New Jersey and Cruz of Texas to address the issues. As the OP already noted, the courts created the Nil and that rabbit ain't going back in the hat by itself.

I also dread the idea of legislation happening but the NCAA is soon paying out 2.7 billion in a settlement for athletes going back to 2015 if the Court approves it and they will not try anything new at all unless they know it is airtight and legal. Like I said previously, we all need to have better information about what is happening and why.

I know we blame the NCAA for so many things but they are almost pathologically consistent in their failures and missteps. This latest Regional misadventure in Spokane for the basketball women with the teams having to stay in Idaho was just emblematic of the worst sports management one can imagine. Like Geno said, imagine if the men had to do the same thing.

...almost pathologically consistent in their failures and missteps. Can't argue with that. But as Bone Dog said, I don't want my congressman involved. The government (both parties) is another institution that is pathologically consistent. What are the odds that if they become involved that they'll screw it up more? A better solution is to leave it up to the Boneyard to straighten this mess out.

 

[BBallF]

I think I understand what you’re getting at, and what strikes me about it is a presupposition that some sort of regulation is necessary. As long as that’s true, then it should become a federal case, merely because it’s an interstate commerce problem.

But is there really a problem with “the current Wild West system”? Or better, what exactly is wrong with it? Kids are playing sports in college. And they’re going to classes. And most of them are graduating with degrees and going on to productive lives. Sure, NIL and the Portal are undermining our pleasure in watching them play, and the sort of basketball we’d like to see more of is threatened. But this does not appear to be something our government needs to respond to, and perhaps should not pay any attention to.

It's a really interesting and important subject we are discussing. I think the request for change, barring some scandal, will come from the colleges themselves. I see the mid majors and lower tier teams, even in a conference like the Big East, being unable to compete for quality players and not holding onto them after they develop. It's happened already to the men's team at Seton Hall for example and at Providence. No contracts so no deterrent or penalty for jumping ship for a better deal after a year in which the player was paid, was developed, and received a free education. There has to be a balance to the system and there isn't now. Also, the current graduation rate in the SEC for football, perhaps the highest NIL money sport, is 56% so I don't see a strong educational impact there. One thing it has done however is make it more lucrative to stay in school and get paid so that is probably why the overall student athlete graduation rate is at 91%. That latter stat includes women which is self explanatory.

 

[oldude]

It's a really interesting and important subject we are discussing. I think the request for change, barring some scandal, will come from the colleges themselves. I see the mid majors and lower tier teams, even in a conference like the Big East, being unable to compete for quality players and not holding onto them after they develop. It's happened already to the men's team at Seton Hall for example and at Providence. No contracts so no deterrent or penalty for jumping ship for a better deal after a year in which the player was paid, was developed, and received a free education. There has to be a balance to the system and there isn't now. Also, the current graduation rate in the SEC for football, perhaps the highest NIL money sport, is 56% so I don't see a strong educational impact there. One thing it has done however is make it more lucrative to stay in school and get paid so that is probably why the overall student athlete graduation rate is at 91%. That latter stat includes women which is self explanatory.

I’m not sure where the 91% comes from, but it’s worth pointing out that for many years the college graduation rate for student-athletes has exceeded the graduation rate for non-athletes. In the most recent study it’s 70% vs 67% respectively.

The higher graduation rate for student-athletes is generally attributed to having a more structured schedule, the requirement to meet NCAA academic standards on eligibility and the fact that athletes more readily integrate into the college community through their association with a team.

 

[Bone Dog]

No contracts so no deterrent or penalty for jumping ship for a better deal after a year in which the player was paid, was developed, and received a free education.

I appreciate your analysis. And I know it feels like there’s an injustice of some sort here that needs to be addressed. It’s just that I don’t see universities as entities that can suffer an injustice. Neither are fans like us. I say this as both a fan and a university professor. I’m deeply tied to both perspectives. If anyone should feel aggrieved over what NIL and the Portal seems to be doing to my favorite sport, it’s me.

As far as I can see, the only group here that can suffer an injustice is the student-athletes, and they have suffered over the years quite a bit. The current “Wild West” appears not to do an injustice to them and may even benefit them greatly. I’m sad and frustrated to see the impact on WCBB, but I am also alert to the possibility that the system I’ve enjoyed watching for so many years is of dubious ethical standing. This unsettling thought won’t stop me from watching next season and every subsequent one.

 

[azfan]

The NCAA fought NIL as hard as it could but eventually folded under pressure. The NCAA is NOT responsible for NIL

NCAA to let schools offer NIL before enrollment

The NCAA is dropping its rule that prohibited athletes from negotiating the terms of NIL payments until after they enrolled in school.

www.espn.com

No directly, the board of the NCAA did not vote to create NIL. In fact that inaction was intentional and myopic.

I would think that NIL would be an anticipated and perverse consequence of the NCAA opposition and battle to maintain control.

So in a significant, indirect way, the NCAA is responsible for both the chaos in college athletics and the subsequent government intervention.

From the NCAA web site: History
"The NCAA, a member-led organization, was founded in 1906 to regulate the rules of college sport and protect young athletes."

Really?

Does anyone believe that the NCAA is member lead?

Does anyone believe that the NCAA protects . . . . anyone, with the exception of the organization.

An analysis - by a NCAA WBB player:

Vermont Catamounts Forward Cassidy Derda

The Upsides & Downsides of College Athletics Within the NCAA: An Analysis of the Rules and a Personal Account of the Power of Resilience

https://scholarworks.uvm.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2152&context=graddis

 

[BBallF]

I’m not sure where the 91% comes from, but it’s worth pointing out that for many years the college graduation rate for student-athletes has exceeded the graduation rate for non-athletes. In the most recent study it’s 70% vs 67% respectively.

The higher graduation rate for student-athletes is generally attributed to having a more structured schedule, the requirement to meet NCAA academic standards on eligibility and the fact that athletes more readily integrate into the college community through their association with a team.

That 91% is from NCAA.org. The rate is 17% higher than it was in 2002. I would think that a nice NIL check would also be an inducement to stay in school and have workable grades even if it's 3 schools. Perhaps an unintended good consequence of the "Wild West".

 

[BBallF]

I appreciate your analysis. And I know it feels like there’s an injustice of some sort here that needs to be addressed. It’s just that I don’t see universities as entities that can suffer an injustice. Neither are fans like us. I say this as both a fan and a university professor. I’m deeply tied to both perspectives. If anyone should feel aggrieved over what NIL and the Portal seems to be doing to my favorite sport, it’s me.

As far as I can see, the only group here that can suffer an injustice is the student-athletes, and they have suffered over the years quite a bit. The current “Wild West” appears not to do an injustice to them and may even benefit them greatly. I’m sad and frustrated to see the impact on WCBB, but I am also alert to the possibility that the system I’ve enjoyed watching for so many years is of dubious ethical standing. This unsettling thought won’t stop me from watching next season and every subsequent one.

Of course not. We are loyal fans and will always be. My point is that you can't just focus on the athletes because it is a systemic issue. If a mid-major can't compete financially in sports because that is the way most colleges are being forced to compete now it has consequences for the college in the form of decreased alumni donations, less attendance which means less revenue, less notoriety for the school etc. which can have consequences for the college itself. Right now, it's all about the dollars and it is distasteful to many fans. St. John's men is picking up players left and right this off season due to very high contributions(NIL) and they won the Big East last year and will be very strong this year. 14 teams from the SEC made the mens Big Dance as stated above. Geno has said publicly that we should stop the charade and treat the athletes like employees, which means contracts, buy outs if you choose to leave, etc. This is also the reason so many great coaches have bailed from the men's game and to my knowledge they all cited at least in part, the new arrangements. Coach K, Jay Wright, Roy Williams as examples.

 

[oldude]

That 91% is from NCAA.org. The rate is 17% higher than it was in 2002. I would think that a nice NIL check would also be an inducement to stay in school and have workable grades even if it's 3 schools. Perhaps an unintended good consequence of the "Wild West".

So I did look at NCAA.org, and I stand corrected. However, I don’t think that NIL is the reason for the higher graduation rates for the tracking period starting in 2004.

In 2003 the NCAA instituted academic progress requirements for athletes that set up annual benchmarks for completing their degrees over a 5-year period. Prior to that change, athletes could take easy courses with no real degree possibility, just to stay eligible.

While NIL might be an additional inducement for athletes to graduate, the requirements for real academic progress towards a meaningful degree is the primary factor in improved graduation rates.

 

[BBallF]

So I did look at NCAA.org, and I stand corrected. However, I don’t think that NIL is the reason for the higher graduation rates for the tracking period starting in 2004.

In 2003 the NCAA instituted academic progress requirements for athletes that set up annual benchmarks for completing their degrees over a 5-year period. Prior to that change, athletes could take easy courses with no real degree possibility, just to stay eligible.

While NIL might be an additional inducement for athletes to graduate, the requirements for real academic progress towards a meaningful degree is the primary factor in improved graduation rates.

I agree. I was being somewhat facetious. I just think it is important at some point to have a comprehensive analysis of NIL and the transfer portal and its effects upon college sports, the student athletes, and the colleges. I assume there are books or treatises out there about this which will make for good beach reading.

 

[Skeets]

I’m not sure where the 91% comes from, but it’s worth pointing out that for many years the college graduation rate for student-athletes has exceeded the graduation rate for non-athletes. In the most recent study it’s 70% vs 67% respectively.

The higher graduation rate for student-athletes is generally attributed to having a more structured schedule, the requirement to meet NCAA academic standards on eligibility and the fact that athletes more readily integrate into the college community through their association with a team.

Also a heck of a lot of kids go to college that have no business being there. If it's free and/or easy the attitude is why not try it? Student-athletes have to meet NCAA standards just to get into college, the general population just has to get the school to accept them. If you have the means to pay the tuition the acceptance is real easy at most schools.

 

[Bone Dog]

Also a heck of a lot of kids go to college that have no business being there. If it's free and/or easy the attitude is why not try it? Student-athletes have to meet NCAA standards just to get into college, the general population just has to get the school to accept them. If you have the means to pay the tuition the acceptance is real easy at most schools.

That probably describes me at 18. I just wanted to get away from home. How odd that over five decades later I’m still technically in college. Beware college. It’s a trap!!!

 

[cancontent]

That probably describes me at 18. I just wanted to get away from home. How odd that over five decades later I’m still technically in college. Beware college. It’s a trap!!!

Couldn't resist

 

[Bigboote]

I don't like the movement of the players nor the vagaries of NIL. But to add to what Bone Dog has said:

In the hard sciences, the vast majority of graduate students are supported in graduate school. You might be guaranteed a year or two of support (tuition plus stipend) as a teaching assistant, then join a research group and spend the next few years as a research assistant. In many larger schools, they accept way more students than they can accommodate in order to have enough TAs. Then they fail half them on the PhD qualifying exams, and they're forced to either take a "terminal" masters or go elsewhere for the PhD.

So universities can be guilty of using students in areas other than athletics. IIRC, TAs at the University of California tried to unionize several years ago, don't remember what happened with that.

 

[Bone Dog]

I don't like the movement of the players nor the vagaries of NIL. But to add to what Bone Dog has said:

In the hard sciences, the vast majority of graduate students are supported in graduate school. You might be guaranteed a year or two of support (tuition plus stipend) as a teaching assistant, then join a research group and spend the next few years as a research assistant. In many larger schools, they accept way more students than they can accommodate in order to have enough TAs. Then they fail half them on the PhD qualifying exams, and they're forced to either take a "terminal" masters or go elsewhere for the PhD.

So universities can be guilty of using students in areas other than athletics. IIRC, TAs at the University of California tried to unionize several years ago, don't remember what happened with that.

This is exactly what I saw in the humanities too. And I believe the UC TAs succeeded in unionizing. Our daughter was at Cal at the time.

 

[1974yankees]

As a taxpayer funded and maintained institution UCONN there needs to be open and transparent visibility relative to the sources of collective money and how and where it is distributed.

As a taxpayer funded and maintained institution UCONN there needs to be open and transparent visibility relative to the sources of collective money and how and where it is distributed.

As a CT taxpayer myself I agree.

For the record the two highest State Employees in CT are

1. Dan Hurley at around 6.8 million per year.

2. Geno Aureimma at around 3.4 million per year..

Teachers make very little.

I can only imagine what they are gonna start paying these athletes now since the NCAA voted to have the universities disperse funds.

I am of the belief that once you are getting paid to perform whether through endorsements or through the University then you are no longer an amateur. You are now a Professional Athlete. I wouldn't call them "student Athletes" either. Especially on the men's side when they play for one year and leave...How is that being a "student athlete" ?

Even on the women's side you have this "transfer portal" where every year you can transfer and go to the highest bidder.. and how is this a "student athlete" ?

I am just calling it what it really is... A business.

Sorry but the real students are the 30 other kids sitting in the same classroom (or the 9 other teammates who make nothing) who can barely afford a meal at Ted's on the weekend...

That is just my take.

 

[azfan]

I’m not sure where the 91% comes from, but it’s worth pointing out that for many years the college graduation rate for student-athletes has exceeded the graduation rate for non-athletes. In the most recent study it’s 70% vs 67% respectively.

The higher graduation rate for student-athletes is generally attributed to having a more structured schedule, the requirement to meet NCAA academic standards on eligibility and the fact that athletes more readily integrate into the college community through their association with a team.

Student athletes were not and are not a homogeneous group.

The higher graduation rates in the revenue producing sports football and men's basketball was due to a wide combination of factors including user-friendly coursework. ;-). This was clearly not the only Factor keeping football and men's basketball players eligible but one would be naive if they didn't recognize how significant these user-friendly courses have been. In the contemporary world we have online courses.

Other sports such as golf, tennis, well the secondary sports attracted students with greater motivation and ability to complete college coursework. Those sports and the practice requirements were also more conducive to student athletes as opposed to professionals were in college jerseys.

I would not credit the NCAA for any of the positives in terms of academics including graduation requirements. The term pathologically incompetent and corrupt does a nice job of capturing NCAA involvement in colleges.

 

[azfan]

As a CT taxpayer myself I agree.

For the record the two highest State Employees in CT are

1. Dan Hurley at around 6.8 million per year.

2. Geno Aureimma at around 3.4 million per year..

Teachers make very little.

I can only imagine what they are gonna start paying these athletes now since the NCAA voted to have the universities disperse funds.

I am of the belief that once you are getting paid to perform whether through endorsements or through the University then you are no longer an amateur. You are now a Professional Athlete. I wouldn't call them "student Athletes" either. Especially on the men's side when they play for one year and leave...How is that being a "student athlete" ?

Even on the women's side you have this "transfer portal" where every year you can transfer and go to the highest bidder.. and how is this a "student athlete" ?

I am just calling it what it really is... A business.

Sorry but the real students are the 30 other kids sitting in the same classroom (or the 9 other teammates who make nothing) who can barely afford a meal at Ted's on the weekend...

That is just my take.

Yep!

You really raise a critical and important point. Can't help but think of James Buchanan and his analysis of concentrated benefits and diffuse costs.

I'm not a Connecticut taxpayer I have the privilege of paying in Arizona. Therefore I bear none of the cost of the excellence of the University of Connecticut women's basketball program which I did a little checking on. In addition to Geno's 3 million you would guess CD in the assistants probably make another 2 million. In 2024 University of Connecticut reported that Athletics generated 57% of their expenses. We're talking millions of dollars and I believe the cost to taxpayers to subsidize and support Athletics at the University of Connecticut was around 35 million dollars.

Now I do receive huge benefits and pay none of the cost . . . that is for the Huskies. But living in Arizona I am obligated to pay to subsidize Athletics. Part of this coerced support accounts for the vigor with which I pointed out the incompetence of the nice coach from Delaware and CAA coach of the year in 2021. If we're going to subsidize these programs we should expect some accountability and hopefully some excellence.

I think it's also important that we acknowledge that this is entertainment. Given a finite budget we're enjoying this entertainment at the expense of very challenging issues that confront our society including homelessness, deteriorating education, property violence, criminal violence against humans, healthcare inequality will the list goes on and on and on.

So that sad I'm delighted that we all have the opportunity to enjoy this level of entertainment and I think at least for me part of the offsetting responsibility is to make certain that above and beyond the coercion the state imposes upon me through a tax code that I do have respond to an obligation for charitable donations and investment in my time to ameliorate the real challenges facing our society.