Game One: Matrim55 vs. Aburks41 ***Winner: Matrim55***

[champs99and04]

The game one tournament has finally started. Here are the teams:

Aburks41

G - Jerome Dyson
G - Chris Smith
F - Caron Butler
F - Niels Giffey
C - Andre Drummond

Bench:

Gavin Edwards
Edmund Saunders

Matrim55

G - Doron Sheffer
G - Ricky Moore
F - Scott Burrell
F - Donyell Marshall
C - Travis Knight

Bench:

Earl Kelley
Lyman Depriest

 

[Matrim55]

I gave my team rundown HERE.

No offense to Aburks, but this is a walk. No true point guard (Smitty was a combo guard at best), and average rebounding, floor spacing and rim protection. Ricky is going to annihilate this team - they will never get to run their offense, unless you really love Dyson's 1-on-3 drives into two shot-blockers.

Plus there's no length or smart help-side defense to try to slow down Donyell - remember, he average 25 ppg (highest of the Calhoun/Ollie era) while shooting 57% from inside the arc. If Caron comes to help, that leaves Burrell (40% from 3) open for the kick-out. If Caron doesn't come, then Niels gets roasted from the elbow or the block.

 

[johnhuskies95]

I gave my team rundown HERE.

No offense to Aburks, but this is a walk. No true point guard (Smitty was a combo guard at best), and average rebounding, floor spacing and rim protection. Ricky is going to annihilate this team - they will never get to run their offense, unless you really love Dyson's 1-on-3 drives into two shot-blockers.

Plus there's no length or smart help-side defense to try to slow down Donyell - remember, he average 25 ppg (highest of the Calhoun/Ollie era) while shooting 57% from inside the arc. If Caron comes to help, that leaves Burrell (40% from 3) open for the kick-out. If Caron doesn't come, then Niels gets roasted from the elbow or the block.

Niels was pretty damn good as a defender here his senior year. I think he'd hold his own. And no offense to Travis Knight, but if Drummond gets a foot in the paint it's over.

He wasn't great on offense, but he did shoot 54% from the floor, and he averaged 14pts a game in games where he played at least 30 minutes.

The guard matchups are interesting here.

 

[PcketknfNiels]

Not sure how Matrim is losing this matchup and Colorado is winning his when you're essentially seeing the same 2 games.

 

[champs99and04]

I think Aburks41 is going to have a hard time scoring. With Ricky on Smith, Dyson is going to have to assume a hefty scoring role. And Jerome - while much of the criticism he took here was unwarranted - never shot better than 41% from the field in any of his four seasons here. Giffey/Drummond is a very limited front court from an offensive standpoint. Drummond's offensive output was largely predicated on lobs and put backs, and Giffey was a spot up shooter, which is to say, neither of them could be relied on to consistently create offense.

Matrim55's team is incredibly balanced, and devoid of any glaring weaknesses. Not a ton of offense at the off guard or center position, but much of that is offset by the fact that he has the best scorer in the history of the program at the four. If I had the #1 pick in the draft, I would have seriously considered Donyell. He was that good.

 

[JSB60]

Matrimonial has three defensive stoppers and enough offense to get through.

 

[tzznandrew]

Yeah...in the Game Two people are underselling UCFB because he does have Kelly coming off the bench (probably should be starting). There's a primary ball handler.

Aburks does not have that. He has two PFs coming off the bench, and his offense has some versatility (Dyson or Smith can have the ball in their hands, Giffey or Butler can play the 4), but I just don't see him getting into offense well. It's not like Butler, for all his brilliance, was a point forward or anything.

I think they get killed, because the other team makes more sense as a team.

 

[intlzncster]

Yeah...in the Game Two people are underselling UCFB because he does have Kelly coming off the bench (probably should be starting). There's a primary ball handler.

Aburks does not have that. He has two PFs coming off the bench, and his offense has some versatility (Dyson or Smith can have the ball in their hands, Giffey or Butler can play the 4), but I just don't see him getting into offense well. It's not like Butler, for all his brilliance, was a point forward or anything.

I think they get killed, because the other team makes more sense as a team.

Aburks has no true PG. No guard off the bench either.

Really surprised at the voting right now. Dead even.

 

[mauconnfan]

This stuff is pretty fun to read…..

A few guys with no true PG's think they can win? We know otherwise……..

 

[PcketknfNiels]

This stuff is pretty fun to read…..

A few guys with no true PG's think they can win? We know otherwise……..

Taliek wasn't a great PG (and played terribly in the final 4) and 04 was our best team. Williams was our best pure passer ever and his team...well, we know what happened there.

 

[Walker11]

Aburks has no true PG. No guard off the bench either.

Really surprised at the voting right now. Dead even.

His team is really good but unfortunately some people aren't going to be as familiar with his older team. Everyone should read his linked breakdown before they vote. I don't see how aburks scores. Smith will be locked down, Giff and AD had all their offense predicated on good PG play, which aburks doesn't have, and he has a great defensive counter to Caron in Burrell. If Dyson were somehow to off, Depriest could sub for Sheffer and lock him down and Matrim would still have a good PG on the floor.

 

[Walker11]

Taliek wasn't a great PG (and played terribly in the final 4) and 04 was our best team. Williams was our best pure passer ever and his team...well, we know what happened there.

A freshman Austrie was the secondary ball handler, that's why.

 

[tzznandrew]

Taliek wasn't a great PG (and played terribly in the final 4) and 04 was our best team. Williams was our best pure passer ever and his team...well, we know what happened there.

Sorry. All time leader in assists (by a lot), great on the ball defense, and 1000 point scorer. He led the team to a title, an E8, and a S16.

Marcus Williams was a better passer, but give me the leadership and defense of Taliek every day.

 

[uchusky32]

You young guys are missing something. Who's keeping Earl out of the paint off the bench. Earl was a wide body strong pt. He's bullying the guards

Smitty knows this for a fact felt it personally in the fieldhouse

 

[PcketknfNiels]

A freshman Austrie was the secondary ball handler, that's why.

Marcus played 14 MPG in 04, and it wouldn't have been that high had Taliek not been such a 0 offensively.

I'd much rather have 3rd year Marcus Williams over 4th year Taliek for the majority of the game. You would too. 99 was a fantastic overall team and Bazz/Kemba are both 1 of a kind type players that it's not fair to claim that PG is an absolute must to win a title. Williams and AJP are both much better than Taliek, yet neither won because they didn't have prime Emeka and prime Gordon (and CV, Boone, etc).

Case by case basis, man.

 

[PcketknfNiels]

Sorry. All time leader in assists (by a lot), great on the ball defense, and 1000 point scorer. He led the team to a title, an E8, and a S16.

Marcus Williams was a better passer, but give me the leadership and defense of Taliek every day.

He has 45 more than Tate in 6 more career games played. So, no, not a lot.

And that 2004 team won nearly in spite of him. That was the best team ever, and it didn't earn that distinction because of Taliek. Taliek scored 4 points on 2-8 shooting (only Emeka and Ben had more FGA with 9 each) and had 3 assists against 7 turnovers in the Duke final 4 game. If Emeka doesn't score 18 despite being on the bench most of the 1st half, and Ben doesn't score 18, and Shad doesn't score 14, and Brown/CV don't both add 8, Taliek would still be eviscerated to this day. Make no mistake, that team had 1 weak link and he was it. Choose any of Kemba, Bazz, Marcus, AJP, KEA and that team makes a serious run at being undefeated.

 

[hoophuskee]

I went with ABurkes. Butler can guard Donyell. of course Donyell wins the battle but only having one center and a finesse center to boot without being much of scorer - you make Drummond and Edmund Saunders better. Smith was good enouhg to be a pg - just becuase he was a combo guard doesn't mean he couldn't be pg. The offense runs through Butler. Neither guard of Smith or Dyson is challenged with the starters by getting into foul trouble. If Earl Kelly starts or play big mintues I'd consider changing my vote. But he's coming off the bench which doesn't challenge Smith or Dyson defensively. And even if he did start I still would be unsure.

Butler can score on Burrell and Dyson (or Smith) can score on Sheffer. They can penetrate on Sheffer - a lot- which is why I believe Drummond would be made to look better than he was. Donyell will be away from the paint to boot. The inside presence is too weak with Travis and with the guards of Smith or Dyson's abaility to penetrate. Donyell has to respect Butler/Giffey. ANd I don't believe Donyell cna play center. That's foul trouble waiting to hapen.

 

[Matrim55]

Knight wasn't a finesse center. He averaged 14.8 rebounds per 40 as a senior, best we ever had in the Calhoun/Ollie era. Emeka's best was 14.2 for a reference, while Drummond's was about 11.5.

There's a reason we went something like 65-5 with Travis as a starter. It wasn't because he was soft.

 

[hoophuskee]

Knight wasn't a finesse center. He averaged 14.8 rebounds per 40 as a senior, best we ever had in the Calhoun/Ollie era. Emeka's best was 14.2 for a reference, while Drummond's was about 11.5.

There's a reason we went something like 65-5 with Travis as a starter. It wasn't because he was soft.

Our team during Knight's era was soft in the paint. Our strength was from the perimeter during his time. We played a good inside physical team, we would be in trouble. Look at his last two years- look at his teams. We were led one year by experience of Ollie/Sheffer and Donny Marshall along with super-soph Ray Allen. IMO you can't contribute a lot of this to Travis. He certainly gets some love but we were a perimter team this year.

In his senior year we're again very experienced all over the court except with bench player Ricky Moore. We lose Ricky we go down. Travis had no impact when Ricky went down. Why? Ray Allen was off - it could happen. Super players sometimes are off. Sheffer slow. And a guy like Travis took a beating inside I believe by the big man in SEC didn't he?

IMO our weakness during the Travis years and why we never got a ff was because of/lack of our overall play in the paint - not just offense. Too much pressure was put on our great guards. IMO your team needs another big man. You only got two- Travis would wear down. Another big man to back him up instead of DePriest then I beleive your team could become beastly.

 

[Uconn77Duke74]

Can we convince Calhoun/Ollie to re-create these match ups for the annual charity game?

 

[tzznandrew]

He has 45 more than Tate in 6 more career games played. So, no, not a lot.

And that 2004 team won nearly in spite of him. That was the best team ever, and it didn't earn that distinction because of Taliek. Taliek scored 4 points on 2-8 shooting (only Emeka and Ben had more FGA with 9 each) and had 3 assists against 7 turnovers in the Duke final 4 game. If Emeka doesn't score 18 despite being on the bench most of the 1st half, and Ben doesn't score 18, and Shad doesn't score 14, and Brown/CV don't both add 8, Taliek would still be eviscerated to this day. Make no mistake, that team had 1 weak link and he was it. Choose any of Kemba, Bazz, Marcus, AJP, KEA and that team makes a serious run at being undefeated.

I seemed to have remembered Shabazz passing him in assists...he didn't. So, indeed, you are correct on that aspect.

He had a bad game against Duke, sure. Lots of players have had a bad game or two. But his on the ball defense and leadership otherwise means I'm taking him over Tate. Taliek proved he could lead a team to the title, and it is not as if Tate didn't have other very good players on the team: Smith, Burrell, Sellers, etc. Taliek led three deep runs.

As to the undefeated season...Bazz and Kemba, sure. Those are our two best PG's ever. You're wrong about Marcus, AJP, and KEA. Put them in the backcourt with Ben Gordon, and Emeka Okafor is in foul trouble every game. Their defense was not strong at all. When they succeeded, it was because they had a guard paired with them that was great on defense (Marcus had none, which is a reason they lost; APJ had Dyson, then Kemba; KEA had Ricky Moore).

 

[Matrim55]

Our team during Knight's era was soft in the paint.

Nope.

In his senior year we're again very experienced all over the court except with bench player Ricky Moore. We lose Ricky we go down. Travis had no impact when Ricky went down. Why?

Because Travis was a center and Ricky was a point guard.

Ray Allen was off - it could happen. Super players sometimes are off. Sheffer slow. And a guy like Travis took a beating inside I believe by the big man in SEC didn't he?

No, he outplayed Dampier.

Travis: 5-for-10, 10 pts, 13 rebounds, 2 steals, 3 blocks
Damp: 6-for-15, 15 pts, 8 rebounds, 0 steals, 2 blocks

Travis was the only starter who showed up that game (which is exhibit A in my "You need more than one offensive initiator!" argument - if Ricky was healthy we would have won). He also put up 15 pts and 13 rebounds against Joe Smith's Maryland in the 1995 tourney, and led the team in rebounds vs. UCLA as well.

The games in which he didn't show up tended to be against the small teams - he was a non-entity in our first round win over Colgate that year, for example. But put him up against a real center, and he'd at least hold his own (just ask Georgetown).

Anyway, neither Knight, nor Hayward, nor Kirk King were soft. The problem with that 95-96 team was that they only went 3 deep in the backcourt, and once Ricky got hurt, we had no ability to change up the game.

IMO our weakness during the Travis years and why we never got a ff was because of/lack of our overall play in the paint - not just offense.

Your alzheimer's is kicking in.

 

[PcketknfNiels]

I seemed to have remembered Shabazz passing him in assists...he didn't. So, indeed, you are correct on that aspect.

He had a bad game against Duke, sure. Lots of players have had a bad game or two. But his on the ball defense and leadership otherwise means I'm taking him over Tate. Taliek proved he could lead a team to the title, and it is not as if Tate didn't have other very good players on the team: Smith, Burrell, Sellers, etc. Taliek led three deep runs.

As to the undefeated season...Bazz and Kemba, sure. Those are our two best PG's ever. You're wrong about Marcus, AJP, and KEA. Put them in the backcourt with Ben Gordon, and Emeka Okafor is in foul trouble every game. Their defense was not strong at all. When they succeeded, it was because they had a guard paired with them that was great on defense (Marcus had none, which is a reason they lost; APJ had Dyson, then Kemba; KEA had Ricky Moore).

It's not like that was the only brutal game Taliek ever had. Taliek went on deep runs because he had Okafor, BG, CV, Boone, Shad, Brown. 2004 was our most talented team ever. As good as Smith was, it can't be held against Tate that he didn't have the 2004 talent. Even then, Laettner doesn't break our hearts and we see our first final 4 quite a bit sooner.

Those latter 3 PG could definitely key that 2004 team to an undefeated season, without Taliek you eliminate a ton of fast break opportunities from his turnovers and horribly inconsistent (putting it kindly) FG%. Without those fast break opportunities, teams are forced to try and score when Okafor/Boone are in much better position defensively. AJP/MW also rate similarly defensively to Taliek, I wouldn't call any of the 3 elite, nor would I call any of them sieves.

The only thing that 06 team really lacked was that 1 player who could consistently get easy buckets. That, more than anything, is why they lost when they did.

 

[tzznandrew]

Taliek Brown's 2004 Assist to Turnover Ratio: 2.69:1.
Tate George's 1990 Assist to Turnover Ratio: 2.33:1

But, out of respect to the game people are voting on, let's take our trash talk somewhere else...

 

[PcketknfNiels]

Taliek Brown's 2004 Assist to Turnover Ratio: 2.69:1.
Tate George's 1990 Assist to Turnover Ratio: 2.33:1

But, out of respect to the game people are voting on, let's take our trash talk somewhere else...

That's a very negligible difference, explained by Taliek having a better crew of guys to pass to than Tate. Pace of play also works against Tate here as more possessions=more chance for TO, which even 1 extra TO every 5 games will skew the ratio.