Game of Thrones - Season 5

[billythekid]

Definitely a great episode. I thought Dany had never been better or more interesting before Tyrion entered her arc. Arya has always been my favorite character on the show and in the books and it's good that they're finally moving her story forward a bit. The Jon Snow fight with the White Walkers was everything you could have hoped for, including zombie children. I think they gave us a bit of foreshadowing with the conversation between Olly and Sam where Sam told Olly that sometimes you have to do what you think is right, even if everyone else thinks it's wrong. Having read the book, I think this may be come back to play before the season is over.

 

[SubbaBub]

Definitely a great episode. I thought Dany had never been better or more interesting before Tyrion entered her arc. Arya has always been my favorite character on the show and in the books and it's good that they're finally moving her story forward a bit. The Jon Snow fight with the White Walkers was everything you could have hoped for, including zombie children. I think they gave us a bit of foreshadowing with the conversation between Olly and Sam where Sam told Olly that sometimes you have to do what you think is right, even if everyone else thinks it's wrong. Having read the book, I think this may be come back to play before the season is over.

Or it's a distraction to tease book readers. As presented it's already a departure from the book. A lazy one, imo but it opens a door to some other possibilities. I hope they do the right thing and I'll leave it there.

 

[August_West]

 

[UConNick]

POSSIBLE SPOILER FOR NON-BOOK READERS


Anyone else watch "Inside the Episode" and hear where the producer called that white walker "night's king"? I was real pissed when I heard that! As most of you probably know, the night's king, in book lore, was the 12th commander of the nights watch. Jon is the 998th. We're talking millenniae. The aura that surrounds the night's king is one of the most mysterious and interesting mysteries surrounding the mythology. I'd be rather pissed off if this is how tht show addresses this, making this historical figure just a white walker. In the book, he's a human that marries a white walker while he's lord commander, but not much is mentioned after that iirc. Still, I don't want to see them do this. The white walkers are so interesting on their own. I'd rather see them out Coldhands in this plotline if they're so set on deviation.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

The first episode the White Walker lets one of the guys go. A walker also allowed Sam Tarly to live; I think it was the one Jon killed. I fully believe they let Jon go. Sometimes they choose to kill, sometimes they choose to spread fear. They only attacked because Jon was trying to usher out the wildlings they had been tracking. I suspect they had been keeping tabs on this group, hoping that others would amass there since it certainly did not seem as if 100,000 wildlings were there. Oh, and I think the Darth Frost guy fully appreciates and knows what Jon Snow is. Also don't think they would waste the time to gather what was at most a couple thousand people by attacking the ships, when they can now break through the wall with relative ease in the absence of Snow. I don't read the books but I just think that the walkers will hit the wall/castle black before Jon gets back.

I suspect that Snow and the remaining Wildlings get behind the Wall by season's end, but who knows?

We do not know what the White Walker's motivations are, but they seem to be more complex than just Zombie Apocalypse. At least I hope so, or I may check out of the show. The show is flirting with some dangerous territory in terms of magic driving the plot.

 

[temery]

Seems as though I am the only one who found the battle scene in this Sunday's episode to be painful to watch. Way too long.

 

[SubbaBub]

Seems as though I am the only one who found the battle scene in this Sunday's episode to be painful to watch. Way too long.

I went from wiping out a couple thousand people in the span of a single breath to not being able to pierce a rickety wooden fence, to not being able to cross 100 yards of beach to wipe out the rest of the wildings, but it was good action TV. Jon's battle with the walker was one of the best sequences in the series. But, the idea that they could outrun the white horde to the boats requires a suspension of disbelief.

 

[temery]

I went from wiping out a couple thousand people in the span of a single breath to not being able to pierce a rickety wooden fence, to not being able to cross 100 yards of beach to wipe out the rest of the wildings, but it was good action TV. Jon's battle with the walker was one of the best sequences in the series. But, the idea that they could outrun the white horde to the boats requires a suspension of disbelief.

Did I miss something? Why didn't he use the glass thing to kill the white walkers?

 

[Brochacho]

I suspect that Snow and the remaining Wildlings get behind the Wall by season's end, but who knows?

We do not know what the White Walker's motivations are, but they seem to be more complex than just Zombie Apocalypse. At least I hope so, or I may check out of the show. The show is flirting with some dangerous territory in terms of magic driving the plot.

Well I think the White Walkers are clearly motivated to wipe out the population of Westeros. In a twisted sort of sense, they are in competition for the iron throne as well. I'm still not understanding your fear of magic driving the plot.

But have you guys noticed that every White Walker incident comes back to Jon? The deserter in the first episode who was spared by one of the Walkers was executed in front of Jon. Jon discovered that Craster was using his sons as offerings to the White Walkers, and saw it happen. His best friend was spared by a White Walker, and later killed one. Then Jon of course kills one and has an epic stare down with the King of the Night, apparently. There has to be a deeper connection with Snow and the Walkers other than that "winter is coming."

 

[SubbaBub]

Did I miss something? Why didn't he use the glass thing to kill the white walkers?

They were lost when the hut collapsed. Jon tried to reach them during the fight but got tossed.

Why they were all carried in one bag is a question.

 

[billythekid]

Well I think the White Walkers are clearly motivated to wipe out the population of Westeros. In a twisted sort of sense, they are in competition for the iron throne as well. I'm still not understanding your fear of magic driving the plot.

But have you guys noticed that every White Walker incident comes back to Jon? The deserter in the first episode who was spared by one of the Walkers was executed in front of Jon. Jon discovered that Craster was using his sons as offerings to the White Walkers, and saw it happen. His best friend was spared by a White Walker, and later killed one. Then Jon of course kills one and has an epic stare down with the King of the Night, apparently. There has to be a deeper connection with Snow and the Walkers other than that "winter is coming."

I can't remember if it was in the tv or book version, but wasn't Bran also assisted by a white walker in his search for the three-eyed raven? I don't remember them really explaining that relationship.

 

[mauconnfan]

They were lost when the hut collapsed. Jon tried to reach them during the fight but got tossed.

Why they were all carried in one bag is a question.

The sword Jon Snow found was made of Valerian steel forged by dragon fire allowing to kill the white walker. I only know this from one of my sales guys who's daughter is a die hard fan. LOL

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Well I think the White Walkers are clearly motivated to wipe out the population of Westeros. In a twisted sort of sense, they are in competition for the iron throne as well. I'm still not understanding your fear of magic driving the plot.

Game of Thrones has been as successful as a book and TV franchise as it is because it is not the run of the mill fantasy series with good and evil wizards casting spells at each other to decide which side wins. The problem now is that the White Walkers sure seem cartoonishly evil to me, and they are magic that can only be beaten with the other side's magic. The use of magic means the rest of the plot literally doesn't matter. We can just fast forward through Dorne and the Tyrells and the Lannisters and the Iron Islands (when they return) and even Winterfell.

That is the problem with using magic as a plot driver.

 

[Brochacho]

Game of Thrones has been as successful as a book and TV franchise as it is because it is not the run of the mill fantasy series with good and evil wizards casting spells at each other to decide which side wins. The problem now is that the White Walkers sure seem cartoonishly evil to me, and they are magic that can only be beaten with the other side's magic. The use of magic means the rest of the plot literally doesn't matter. We can just fast forward through Dorne and the Tyrells and the Lannisters and the Iron Islands (when they return) and even Winterfell.

That is the problem with using magic as a plot driver.

The White Walkers are turning into my favorite part of the series, so I could be biased here. Why are you only concerned with them, though? What about the people that can possess animals? Or that girl that was throwing fireballs at the skeletons? Fire Jesus Lady? Or, you know, dragons? Do those things bother you?

Again, I still don't see your point. The Walkers are more complex than some zombie drivers bringing the apocalypse. They used to be considered invincible, then the discovery of dragon glass occurred. Then Valerian steel has been shown to kill them. They likely have other weaknesses that expand past "magic." I don't think they matter in the long run, Dany's dragons will just BBQ sooner or later anyway.

 

[UConNick]

The white walkers are one of the most interesting facets of the entire show, mainly because GRRM has revealed next to nothing about them in the books. Do they have a culture of their own? A government or hierarchy of some form? Weaknesses outside of Valyrian steel and obsidian? I suppose the show may answer these questions sooner than the books, and frankly, I'm not sure how I feel about that. GoT/Asoiaf is on the fast track to having 2 unique sets of canon.

 

[SubbaBub]

The plot rational for the WW is to distinguish it from all other fantasy LOTR ripoff in that it is not just clans fighting over land and power.

The WW are a direct threat to the entire living GOT universe. The idea that people are fighting for an iron throne that seems to being only bad things to those who attain it when their is a larger an inevitable threat add a depth to the story that is rare for the genre. It's not just good v evil.

 

[Penfield]

I think Magic is going to play a major role in the remainder of this series, both Books and TV show, and I really don't see any way around it at this point. I wouldn't expect to see wizards throwing fire balls at each other though.

Dragons, wargs/green seers, white walkers/zombies, spells, giants, swords, horns, smoke baby assassins, dragon glass, & gods have all played and will continue to play pivotal roles I expect.

 

[UConNick]

Also I'm not sure if this has been discussed but there is nothing magical about dragon glass. It's simply the archaic name for obsidian, which the maesters do mention in the books. Valyrian steel, on the other hand, is made with dragonfire, so it most definitely has a magical connotation.

 

[Penfield]

Also I'm not sure if this has been discussed but there is nothing magical about dragon glass. It's simply the archaic name for obsidian, which the maesters do mention in the books. Valyrian steel, on the other hand, is made with dragonfire, so it most definitely has a magical connotation.

I think the majority of Maester's are inherently suspicious of magic.

Interview w/ Martin

Shaw: Is there a certain reason why they named obsidian "dragonglass" or why you did that?

Martin: Yes, there is a reason.

Shaw: Are dragons somehow the mortal enemy of the Others?

Martin: There are a lot of legends, and you'll be hearing more about them in the future books, but a lot of stuff about Others and about dragons maybe isn't completely understood by the people of the present. Obsidian is of course volcanic glass; it's formed by immense heat and pressure down in the earth. The dragons themselves are creatures of intense heat.

Shaw: I wasn't sure if you had added something to obsidian for the fantasy.

Martin: I've given it magical characteristics that of course real obsidian doesn't necessarily have. After all, we live in a world that has no magic. My world does have magic, so it's a little bit different.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

I think Magic is going to play a major role in the remainder of this series, both Books and TV show, and I really don't see any way around it at this point. I wouldn't expect to see wizards throwing fire balls at each other though.

Dragons, wargs/green seers, white walkers/zombies, spells, giants, swords, horns, smoke baby assassins, dragon glass, & gods have all played and will continue to play pivotal roles I expect.

That is the problem thought. Up through 9:30 pm last Sunday, Game of Thrones' best moments have not been spells being cast but the interaction of the characters. Ned getting his head chopped off, Robb capturing Jaime, the cat and mouse game of Tywin and Arya, Blackwater, the Queen of Thorns, the Red Wedding, the Purple Wedding, Sansa saving Baelish from the Lords of the Vale. While the scene was cool, we just learned that the prior 4.5 seasons didn't matter.

There has been some magic, such as Renly getting killed and Daenerys surviving the fire and hatching the dragons, but that stuff was on the fringe and not driving the core story, which was about the characters. Unfortunately, now the characters don't matter, and we are just watching to find out whose spell wins.

 

[Penfield]

That is the problem thought. Up through 9:30 pm last Sunday, Game of Thrones' best moments have not been spells being cast but the interaction of the characters. Ned getting his head chopped off, Robb capturing Jaime, the cat and mouse game of Tywin and Arya, Blackwater, the Queen of Thorns, the Red Wedding, the Purple Wedding, Sansa saving Baelish from the Lords of the Vale. While the scene was cool, we just learned that the prior 4.5 seasons didn't matter.

There has been some magic, such as Renly getting killed and Daenerys surviving the fire and hatching the dragons, but that stuff was on the fringe and not driving the core story, which was about the characters. Unfortunately, now the characters don't matter, and we are just watching to find out whose spell wins.

I understand where you are coming from because what originally hooked me into the series was the fantasy setting without a ton of magic and non-human races. But the back story has set up the fact that magic exists. They told us all the stories about White Walkers, Dragons, Giants, and Skin Changers up front. It's just that when we as viewers/readers entered the world it was mostly dormant. I actually kind of like that it is slowly becoming more important as the story goes along. They are easing us into it.

Another way to look at it is that the Characters are still important because they need to learn to harness and control the magic. I think there will still be plenty of politics involved, but it will certainly be different. Maybe part of the point is that all these people are jockeying for position when something much bigger and more important is going on.

 

[UConNick]

Maybe part of the point is that all these people are jockeying for position when something much bigger and more important is going on.

Precisely. Even though the stuff up north has been portrayed as secondary to the struggles for the iron throne on the surface, there is no doubt that the white walkers are the more important fight. This, in my opinion, will be the climax of the series, not when King's Landing is sacked by Dany or whoever will win that trivial little game.

 

[ZooCougar]

I understand where you are coming from because what originally hooked me into the series was the fantasy setting without a ton of magic and non-human races. But the back story has set up the fact that magic exists. They told us all the stories about White Walkers, Dragons, Giants, and Skin Changers up front. It's just that when we as viewers/readers entered the world it was mostly dormant. I actually kind of like that it is slowly becoming more important as the story goes along. They are easing us into it.

Another way to look at it is that the Characters are still important because they need to learn to harness and control the magic. I think there will still be plenty of politics involved, but it will certainly be different. Maybe part of the point is that all these people are jockeying for position when something much bigger and more important is going on.

I hate magic. But the element of mystery makes it more than tolerable. If Game of Thrones were purely "humanist" they might as well set it in Northern Europe and Africa.

 

[CTGoonie]

I know the show is called "Game of Thrones" but the book series is "A Song of Ice and Fire". GoT is just the title of the first book. The WW's taking on a larger role in the last 2 books essentially make the story of who ends up on the Iron Throne secondary compared to the Ice vs. Fire battle. Nelson is concerned about magic but I really don't care as long as it continues to have great dialogue like Tyrion and Dany and epic scenes like Hardhome. We could also use a few ice spiders to liven things up.

 

[Brochacho]

Do they have a culture of their own? A government or hierarchy of some form?

The episode with Craster's last son would seem to suggest so. The image that came to my mind: