FWIW (Nothing) My thoughts on Vital | Page 2 | The Boneyard

FWIW (Nothing) My thoughts on Vital

CV could look at the benching as a problem or an opportunity. In response, he has his strung together a number of bad games.

Hurley has lavished praise on his heart and competitiveness. Yet Vital has even stopped doing the things he used to do well. Only one person can figure this out. He needs to find a way to play to strengths move toward his ceiling and not his floor. I still think every shot he takes is going in.
 
I guess I will weigh in. I think there a couple of things going on.

First, when Jalen and Al were both out, defenses keyed on Vital as our primary remaining perimeter threat. Seeing the opposing defenses best defenders instead of 3rd or 4th, he was ineffective. Even with Al back, Vital is having a hard time getting the open looks he used to, or hitting them. He is a catch and shoot player. He is terrible creating his own shot by shooting off of his dribble (unlike Gilbert and Jalen).

Second, Sid has to learn how to play as a SF. He has to improve his handle and his outside shot, as well as penetration off the dribble. That's the only position he is going to play on this team going forward. Against USF, UConn couldn't go three guards. Their SF is 6'7" and 220. Sid is 40 pounds lighter but at least has the height. CV would be posted up every time down the floor.

Looking at next year:
1. Al - Gaffney - B Adams?
2. Vital, Bouk, B Adams
3. Sid, Bouk, B Adams or player to be signed like Precious.
4. Akok, Polley, ?
5. Carlton, ?

There are zero minutes for CV at the 3 next year or for Sid at the 4. So neither of them are playing many minutes at those positions now. Adams is the player who will swing between 2-3 and so that's what he's been doing.
 
HuskyHawk said:
I guess I will weigh in. I think there a couple of things going on.

First, when Jalen and Al were both out, defenses keyed on Vital as our primary remaining perimeter threat. Seeing the opposing defenses best defenders instead of 3rd or 4th, he was ineffective. Even with Al back, Vital is having a hard time getting the open looks he used to, or hitting them. He is a catch and shoot player. He is terrible creating his own shot by shooting off of his dribble (unlike Gilbert and Jalen).

Second, Sid has to learn how to play as a SF. He has to improve his handle and his outside shot, as well as penetration off the dribble. That's the only position he is going to play on this team going forward. Against USF, UConn couldn't go three guards. Their SF is 6'7" and 220. Sid is 40 pounds lighter but at least has the height. CV would be posted up every time down the floor.

Looking at next year:
1. Al - Gaffney - B Adams?
2. Vital, Bouk, B Adams
3. Sid, Bouk, B Adams or player to be signed like Precious.
4. Akok, Polley, ?
5. Carlton, ?

There are zero minutes for CV at the 3 next year or for Sid at the 4. So neither of them are playing many minutes at those positions now. Adams is the player who will swing between 2-3 and so that's what he's been doing.
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I think this is wrong, and I think that's why Vital is on the bench. Hurley clearly thinks that at least 1 of Gaffney/Bouk is going to start right off the bat next year, which would place Vital into a key bench player. He's trying to get him used to that role, and I'm sure that he's had a conversation with Vital about that.

So what's playing out here is that Hurley is conditioning Vital for something he realllllllly hates - the fact that he will be usurped by some newbies next year - and Hurley figures it will hurt now or later, might as well give him as much time as possible to get over it. I think its smart long-term.

Here is what I see the lineup like next year:


1. Al/Gaffney
2. Gaffney/Bouk/Vital
3. Bouk/Vital/Sid
4. Sid/Akok/Polley
5. Carlton/Whaley/Akok

I would note that we are triple fine at G, and are desperately looking for something/anything to add for the 5 position.
 
bmayuc said:
I think this is wrong, and I think that's why Vital is on the bench. Hurley clearly thinks that at least 1 of Gaffney/Bouk is going to start right off the bat next year, which would place Vital into a key bench player. He's trying to get him used to that role, and I'm sure that he's had a conversation with Vital about that.

So what's playing out here is that Hurley is conditioning Vital for something he realllllllly hates - the fact that he will be usurped by some newbies next year - and Hurley figures it will hurt now or later, might as well give him as much time as possible to get over it. I think its smart long-term.

Here is what I see the lineup like next year:


1. Al/Gaffney
2. Gaffney/Bouk/Vital
3. Bouk/Vital/Sid
4. Sid/Akok/Polley
5. Carlton/Whaley/Akok

I would note that we are triple fine at G, and are desperately looking for something/anything to add for the 5 position.
Expand ...

I wasn't suggesting that CV was the sure starter. Whoever earns it will start. Same at the 3 spot. I don't see CV starting at the 3 at any point in the future. His time there is done. Adams will play some at the 3, as he has the size.

Did anybody pay attention to Hurley's comments about the league? That guys are a couple inches taller and bigger and stronger than what he faced in the A-10. The three small guard lineup is over. He realizes you can't run 3 guards at this level unless they are all 6'5 or so. You cannot win at this level playing a 6'1" guy at SF, nor skinny 175 pound guys at PF. This is mostly an adjustment to the reality he sees out there. This is not URI.
 
HuskyHawk said:
I wasn't suggesting that CV was the sure starter. Whoever earns it will start. Same at the 3 spot. I don't see CV starting at the 3 at any point in the future. His time there is done. Adams will play some at the 3, as he has the size.

Did anybody pay attention to Hurley's comments about the league? That guys are a couple inches taller and bigger and stronger than what he faced in the A-10. The three small guard lineup is over. He realizes you can't run 3 guards at this level unless they are all 6'5 or so. You cannot win at this level playing a 6'1" guy at SF, nor skinny 175 pound guys at PF. This is mostly an adjustment to the reality he sees out there. This is not URI.
Expand ...
Good points
 
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The old canard saying it's not who starts but who finishes works here. I'm hoping we don't have Vital on the floor late next year.
 
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The issue I have is it feels like CV takes a three and misses during every crucial stretch. Fortunately, he’s in the middle of most big rebounds toward the end of games but please stop feeling the need to take that big 3 when down by 2 or 3.
 
bmayuc said:
I think this is wrong, and I think that's why Vital is on the bench. Hurley clearly thinks that at least 1 of Gaffney/Bouk is going to start right off the bat next year, which would place Vital into a key bench player. He's trying to get him used to that role, and I'm sure that he's had a conversation with Vital about that.

So what's playing out here is that Hurley is conditioning Vital for something he realllllllly hates - the fact that he will be usurped by some newbies next year - and Hurley figures it will hurt now or later, might as well give him as much time as possible to get over it. I think its smart long-term.

Here is what I see the lineup like next year:


1. Al/Gaffney
2. Gaffney/Bouk/Vital
3. Bouk/Vital/Sid
4. Sid/Akok/Polley
5. Carlton/Whaley/Akok

I would note that we are triple fine at G, and are desperately looking for something/anything to add for the 5 position.
Expand ...

I would be very surprised if the lineup contains Gaffney and Bouknight but not Akok and Vital. I could be wrong.

I don’t want to speculate, but is it possible that Vital coming off the bench is still related to a discipline issue? It doesn’t make a ton of sense from a basketball perspective. Even if Vital isn’t going to start next year (I think he will), he doesn’t need to practice coming off the bench now to prepare for that role.
 
Does anybody have access to his plus/minus relative to the other guys on the team?
I don't have any stats to back this thought, but he seems to affect the game in several ways that don't show up in the standard box score.
I saw two instances where he directly caused USF to turn the ball over yesterday that would not have shown up as a steal. One time his body position caused a tip off the other team OOB. The other time, his body positioning on a rebound allowed a different Husky to rebound the ball, IIRC. Easier to see in person, it seemed.
Yes, yes, he makes D/P type mistakes, but the ultimate question is, how does he affect the outcome of the game?
 
HuskyHawk said:
I wasn't suggesting that CV was the sure starter. Whoever earns it will start. Same at the 3 spot. I don't see CV starting at the 3 at any point in the future. His time there is done. Adams will play some at the 3, as he has the size.

Did anybody pay attention to Hurley's comments about the league? That guys are a couple inches taller and bigger and stronger than what he faced in the A-10. The three small guard lineup is over. He realizes you can't run 3 guards at this level unless they are all 6'5 or so. You cannot win at this level playing a 6'1" guy at SF, nor skinny 175 pound guys at PF. This is mostly an adjustment to the reality he sees out there. This is not URI.
Expand ...

I think you are putting wayyyyyyyyy too much weight in the whole "AAC is a bigger, better league than the A10" stuff. 3 guard lineups work all the time at every level on basketball if you have, you know, a frontcourt that can hold its own. In fact CV is kind of an ideal 3 guard lineup guard, since he rebounds and defends at such a high level relative to his size.

The real problem here is tension between the lineups we will play in 3 years and the players we have now. Ideally we would have a bunch of guards that can all dribble and score off the bounce.

Right NOW, we don't really have any ballhandlers on this team taller than 5'10(AG) next year. I think Brendan Adams can do some fun things, but set up an offense is not one of them. Tarin Smith will be gone. CV bless his heart, not a maestro off the dribble. So forget lineup composition, we will need strait up guys of any size who can put the ball on the deck next year to support AG. I think the most likely two options are Gaffney for sure, and Bouk maybe.

So my point with line-ups is that since you need 2 ball-handlers, CV will by necessity need to learn to play an efficient role as 6th man, because to your point we aint starting a 6'1 3-man. If the game dictates, he can come in to spell the 2 or the 3 depending on matchups, but I just don't see him starting.

Again to someone else's point, it does matter who closes. And CV could really be a clutch and important end-game player if he makes one very easy change. Stop ever dribbling. If he gets the ball, and he is not open for a shot, he should just hold it until he can safely hand it back to AG or whoever is running the offense.

***I'm only joking a little bit about the last sentence. 99% of the bad things CV does are related to dribbling and then doing dumb things***
 
bmayuc said:
I think this is wrong, and I think that's why Vital is on the bench. Hurley clearly thinks that at least 1 of Gaffney/Bouk is going to start right off the bat next year, which would place Vital into a key bench player. He's trying to get him used to that role, and I'm sure that he's had a conversation with Vital about that.

So what's playing out here is that Hurley is conditioning Vital for something he realllllllly hates - the fact that he will be usurped by some newbies next year - and Hurley figures it will hurt now or later, might as well give him as much time as possible to get over it. I think its smart long-term.

Here is what I see the lineup like next year:


1. Al/Gaffney
2. Gaffney/Bouk/Vital
3. Bouk/Vital/Sid
4. Sid/Akok/Polley
5. Carlton/Whaley/Akok

I would note that we are triple fine at G, and are desperately looking for something/anything to add for the 5 position.
Expand ...
I doubt he’s not starting the kid in the hopes that next year someone else may push them down in the rotation. I strongly suspect that there are things Hurley wants Christian to do that CV isn’t doing.

FWIW As much as Al is Hurleys duly appointed “leader” CVs going to be the biggest leader next year. He’s got a big personality and will be a senior.
 
.-.
CL82 said:
I doubt he’s not starting the kid in the hopes that next year someone else may push them down in the rotation. I strongly suspect that there are things Hurley wants Christian to do that CV isn’t doing.

FWIW As much as Al is Hurleys duly appointed “leader” CVs going to be the biggest leader next year. He’s got a big personality and will be a senior.
Expand ...

I think you are making my point for me.

Hurley has been explicitly handing the torch to AG. He wants him to lead, to be the leader, and even the beat reporters have said Hurley is very thoughtfully building that within the team with these moves. Is it really much of a stretch that CVs demotion and clear role reversal and definition is not a part of that concerted effort?

To me, its all connected. This is what program builders do. They make very clear their expectations and roles. And to pre-empt CV and his dominant personality from defining next year, Hurley is verrrrry explicitly showing the team what their roles are, now.

Anyway, looking forward to next year when we will all be proven wrong again!
 
bmayuc said:
I think you are making my point for me.

Hurley has been explicitly handing the torch to AG. He wants him to lead, to be the leader, and even the beat reporters have said Hurley is very thoughtfully building that within the team with these moves. Is it really much of a stretch that CVs demotion and clear role reversal and definition is not a part of that concerted effort?

To me, its all connected. This is what program builders do. They make very clear their expectations and roles. And to pre-empt CV and his dominant personality from defining next year, Hurley is verrrrry explicitly showing the team what their roles are, now.

Anyway, looking forward to next year when we will all be proven wrong again!
Expand ...
CV and AG don't play the same position. I strongly doubt Dan Hurley is not playing CV in the hopes that that make Al a better leader.
 
bmayuc said:
I think this is wrong, and I think that's why Vital is on the bench. Hurley clearly thinks that at least 1 of Gaffney/Bouk is going to start right off the bat next year, which would place Vital into a key bench player. He's trying to get him used to that role, and I'm sure that he's had a conversation with Vital about that.

So what's playing out here is that Hurley is conditioning Vital for something he realllllllly hates - the fact that he will be usurped by some newbies next year - and Hurley figures it will hurt now or later, might as well give him as much time as possible to get over it. I think its smart long-term.

Here is what I see the lineup like next year:


1. Al/Gaffney
2. Gaffney/Bouk/Vital
3. Bouk/Vital/Sid
4. Sid/Akok/Polley
5. Carlton/Whaley/Akok

I would note that we are triple fine at G, and are desperately looking for something/anything to add for the 5 position.
Expand ...

You think Hurley isn't trying the best he can win games this year? You can really watch the way he coaches, and see how much harder he has many of these kids playing than they did a year ago, and think he doesn't desperately want to win each game he coaches?

I find those to be silly conclusions. Vital is coming off the bench because as much as he does a lot of things that helps this team be better, he just makes too many mistakes to be counted on and Hurley is trying to make him focus by making him want his minutes back. And, when you saw the foul in the last minute yesterday, you have to wonder if Vital will ever play with enough smarts that you really want him on the floor at the end of games.

I don't want to bash the young man. He seems likeable enough and he plays damn hard. But there are reasons beyond next year why he isn't starting.
 
businesslawyer said:
You think Hurley isn't trying the best he can win games this year? You can really watch the way he coaches, and see how much harder he has many of these kids playing than they did a year ago, and think he doesn't desperately want to win each game he coaches?.
Expand ...

He's practically having a heart attack on the sideline. I think he's all-in on winning.
 
Crank said:
Does anybody have access to his plus/minus relative to the other guys on the team?
I don't have any stats to back this thought, but he seems to affect the game in several ways that don't show up in the standard box score.
I saw two instances where he directly caused USF to turn the ball over yesterday that would not have shown up as a steal. One time his body position caused a tip off the other team OOB. The other time, his body positioning on a rebound allowed a different Husky to rebound the ball, IIRC. Easier to see in person, it seemed.
Yes, yes, he makes D/P type mistakes, but the ultimate question is, how does he affect the outcome of the game?
Expand ...

Totally agree. On a team where some players seem to be invisible for long stretches, it seems every time there is some play disrupting the opponents offense, Vital is in the middle of it. Sometimes it works out and sometimes it doesn't (last game led the team in both fouls and steals - 0 turnovers by the way). He just has a nose for the ball and the desire to put himself in the fray. I'll take that over the invisible man every time. Stone cold from the three, as was the rest of the team (it happens) but still put up 9 points.
 
I think Vital's testing of the draft waters was for feedback purposes only. I don't think he was planning to be selected.
 
.-.
businesslawyer said:
You think Hurley isn't trying the best he can win games this year? You can really watch the way he coaches, and see how much harder he has many of these kids playing than they did a year ago, and think he doesn't desperately want to win each game he coaches?

I find those to be silly conclusions. Vital is coming off the bench because as much as he does a lot of things that helps this team be better, he just makes too many mistakes to be counted on and Hurley is trying to make him focus by making him want his minutes back. And, when you saw the foul in the last minute yesterday, you have to wonder if Vital will ever play with enough smarts that you really want him on the floor at the end of games.

I don't want to bash the young man. He seems likeable enough and he plays damn hard. But there are reasons beyond next year why he isn't starting.
Expand ...
Hurley is definitely walking the line between trying to win and trying to develop younger guys. BAdams is definitely getting more time than he deserves. Dan Hurley gave Carlton lots more time early in the season then he had earned (good move, it paid off). Sid is getting more minutes although he struggles much of the time. The good news is Sid looked lost early on and now seems to be getting better defensively. I think Dan Hurley's hook will be much quicker next year.
 
Scrutiner said:
Next year's Denham Brown or Rashad Anderson. I like it. Hope he comes back.
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Easy with the comparisons. Brown and Anderson were impact Huskies on arguably 2 of the all time great college teams we will ever see. Vital on the other hand tries hard and rebounds well. Let's not get carried away.
 
QDOG5 said:
I was unduly harsh toward CV. I apologize for my comments about him.
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You're not allowed to apologize on the boneyard dot com.
You are only allowed to keep burying yourself deeper and deeper in your bad take until everyone hates you.
 
CL82 said:
I doubt he’s not starting the kid in the hopes that next year someone else may push them down in the rotation. I strongly suspect that there are things Hurley wants Christian to do that CV isn’t doing.

FWIW As much as Al is Hurleys duly appointed “leader” CVs going to be the biggest leader next year. He’s got a big personality and will be a senior.
Expand ...

He's being pushed into a reserve role for a reason - it's not to motivate him.

He's being relegated to clear the deck for Gilbert and the newcomers. Hurley is serious about changing the culture of the team...this is what that looks like.
 
.-.
Fishy said:
He's being pushed into a reserve role for a reason - it's not to motivate him.

He's being relegated to clear the deck for Gilbert and the newcomers. Hurley is serious about changing the culture of the team...this is what that looks like.
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It’s tough to see any reasonable reason for doing that while the season continues. It’s easy enough to break the news to him over the summer.
 
I think he wants to be the man, and he isn't on this team even with Jalen out. This has become Alterique's team with Josh picking up the slack.
He needs to know his limits and play into his strengths from here on out.
 
Fishy said:
He's being pushed into a reserve role for a reason - it's not to motivate him.

He's being relegated to clear the deck for Gilbert and the newcomers. Hurley is serious about changing the culture of the team...this is what that looks like.
Expand ...

Yeah, that’s clear. What is less clear is why Vital, when Hurley went to some trouble to describe him as one of the guys who plays with the intensity he’s seeking. My only guess is that while CV generally plays hard, and is playing smarter than the prior two years, he still doesn’t exhibit the kind of basketball IQ you’d hope to see.
 
businesslawyer said:
You think Hurley isn't trying the best he can win games this year? You can really watch the way he coaches, and see how much harder he has many of these kids playing than they did a year ago, and think he doesn't desperately want to win each game he coaches?

I find those to be silly conclusions. Vital is coming off the bench because as much as he does a lot of things that helps this team be better, he just makes too many mistakes to be counted on and Hurley is trying to make him focus by making him want his minutes back. And, when you saw the foul in the last minute yesterday, you have to wonder if Vital will ever play with enough smarts that you really want him on the floor at the end of games.

I don't want to bash the young man. He seems likeable enough and he plays damn hard. But there are reasons beyond next year why he isn't starting.
Expand ...
I am in agreement w/ businesslawyer. Benchings like this are common at every level, particularly at the college level. Coaches will bench top players for failing to lead in the locker room. You want your best players to be first for workouts and practice. You want them to demonstrate leadership in film session, and on the road. A standard of excellence is primarily built behind the scenes and maybe this is where Vital and Coach Hurley do not have a meeting of the minds.
 
I was never a vital fan but this year he grew on me a bit. However , strange that Hurley benches vital from starting and, in turn, Vital has seemed to play more reckless and more “head scratchingly” , like he’s reverting back to last year. Either he’s panicking or doing it on purpose(forcing the ball, jacking up crazy threes etc...) Interesting - or I’m reading too deep into it
 
I think there is a lot of good conjecture in this thread.
Fishy's point rings true . . . the message being sent is that CV is going to be a reserve guard next year.
Some pointed out, why now? Why not wait until summer.
There are at least two reasons that I can conjure that make now better than summer:

1. It allows CV to make the decision to either stay or go. Although I am sure it's very hard on CV to come off the bench, in the end it's much better for him, and for the team, to make the move late in the year like this. This move allows CV to experience his role next year right now. Being told in the summer would not give him the opportunity to determine how a reserve role will sit with him. Perhaps it's not as bad as he imagined, and he decides to stay and be the new RJ. That's a win/win. On the flip side, if he abhors it, these last handful of games confirms it, and he moves on - - that's a win/win as well. He finds greener pastures and Dan Hurley doesn't have an unhappy camper.

2. On Feb 8, Jalen Adams goes down. A few days later, it becomes clear he's not coming back until very late, if at all. The only chance left for an NCAA birth probably is gone at that point. In any event, odds of winning AAC tourni drop darn near close to zero with no JA or with a rusty JA. Within 2 weeks, #1 is on the bench. At some point during the intervening 2 weeks, Dan Hurley may well have gone all-in on next year. Maybe took 2 games just to confirm there was no real chance of a fluke chemistry and a run. And why not move on to next year? CV started until he didn't because, prior to Cinci, him starting gave us the best chance to win this year. After Cinci, this year didn't matter anymore, and him not starting gives us the best chance to win next year.
That's the Bill Bellichek approach, and I'm completely comfortable with it. Every player coming in needs to breath that mantra - we do what we have to do to win - we don't do favors for old times sake or to avoid hurting feelings.

I love CV and what he has brought. I hate him sitting. I love Dan Hurley moving on to next year. I hate that CV may not play a big role in next year. It is what it is. Breaking eggs and omelets, after all.
 
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