FSU and Clemson to Big XII?

[Carl Spackler]

This just isn't true. I don't know any better way to explain it.

Funny then, how the Chancellor up there graciously "withdrew" from the AAU 6 months ago, rather than face the embarrassment of getting kicked out.

http://chronicle.com/article/Syracuse-U-Facing-a-Forced/127363/

 

[Dann]

i don't want to start more of a arguement but i do have a question.

How close is UConn to being a AAU member? i know recently they have dumped $$ into research and more grants and what ever else. I was told last fall that the school was close to being able to apply and get in? Isn't it a small group of schools in that and they don't like making the group bigger?

 

[Jericho]

Notre Dame is trying to stay in a conference with Memphis, Boise and Houston when it could join the Big 10 whenever it wanted.

That's how much academics mean to university presidents.

No, Notre Dame is trying to remain independent in football. Sticking their other sports with Memphis, Boise St. (who they actually do not share anything with as Boise State is football only and Notre Dame is everything but football), and Houston is what they're willing to accept to achieve that goal.

If Notre Dame full on joined a conference, the above list is why it won't be the Big East (it'll be the Big 10 or the ACC)

 

[Carl Spackler]

i don't want to start more of a arguement but i do have a question.

How close is UConn to being a AAU member? i know recently they have dumped $$ into research and more grants and what ever else. I was told last fall that the school was close to being able to apply and get in? Isn't it a small group of schools in that and they don't like making the group bigger?

I'll put it this way. Getting our research profile as a University arrow pointing due north is very high on the priority list for President Herbst. We're certainly heading toward AAU membership criteria, where Syracuse, clearly is heading due south over the past 10 years, after having been a member for 45 years.

After meeting basic criteria, then, as in anything else, it's a matter of politics.

 

[mavblues]

So bottom line - does Syracuse suck or not?

 

[Carl Spackler]

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...3NLibg_Cn8jsTjO8g&sig2=K6r4PZTDSjv_mDjxMRqPXw

Hopefully that link works, can't figure out how to get the PDF on here, but that's the current AAU membership guidelines/principles.

I had no idea that Syracuse was out, until another poster pointed it out to me recently that since 2002 or so, what's been happening up there.

Truth is, that if you look at the endowment, and you look at donations and stuff like that, the numbers are pointing up, they've seen an increase in donorship in the past year, that has offset an approx $300 million dollar loss they took a 5 years ago.

Research funding is also on the rise, but it's all local and state funding, and it's all basically been regeared toward projects to help the local community as much as possible.

I'm sure there are people around here that will argue that all of this is agood thing for Syracuse, but to me, it's a very clear sign of a university that is entirely focused on self preservation, in a struggling community and the athletics move to the ACC and the way it's been done, makes perfect sense.

They needed a guaranteed paycheck up there in Syracuse.

I still would be shaking in my boots, if all of my broadcasting rights for all of my athletic department for the next 20+ years hinged on a home and home partnership for scheduling with Boston College, and the whims of ESPN to fill their airtime.

FYI: UConn has taken what was one of the smallest endowments in the entire country for an institution with our profile and increased it by 20% in one year in 2011, through the uconn foundation by raising approx. $50mill and got the endowment figure up to approx $315 mill. Syracuse endowment is much larger, approaching $1bill, if not more, and has been much larger historically.

It all starts with leadership from the top, we've got a president now, who doesn't think small time, we need an AD that doesn't think small time, because we've most certainly got 2 basketball coaches, and now a football coach in the three money makers that haven't thought small time, at any point in their careers, and certainly don't now.

The growth potential of UConn, is a reservoir just waiting to be tapped. In all aspects.

 

[upstater]

No, Notre Dame is trying to remain independent in football. Sticking their other sports with Memphis, Boise St. (who they actually do not share anything with as Boise State is football only and Notre Dame is everything but football), and Houston is what they're willing to accept to achieve that goal.

If Notre Dame full on joined a conference, the above list is why it won't be the Big East (it'll be the Big 10 or the ACC)

If ND joins a conference, it won't be because of academics. All their other sports other than football will be scheduling the BE. So why does football suddenly make a hair's bit of difference to the academic side? It makes no sense. Is football the only sport that impacts academics?

 

[upstater]

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CCwQFjAB&url=http://www.aau.edu/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=10972&ei=JCg0T7uCEITw0gHooZi8Ag&usg=AFQjCNFuPOGwP7R4_3NLibg_Cn8jsTjO8g&sig2=K6r4PZTDSjv_mDjxMRqPXw

Hopefully that link works, can't figure out how to get the PDF on here, but that's the current AAU membership guidelines/principles.

I had no idea that Syracuse was out, until another poster pointed it out to me recently that since 2002 or so, what's been happening up there.

Truth is, that if you look at the endowment, and you look at donations and stuff like that, the numbers are pointing up, they've seen an increase in donorship in the past year, that has offset an approx $300 million dollar loss they took a 5 years ago.

Research funding is also on the rise, but it's all local and state funding, and it's all basically been regeared toward projects to help the local community as much as possible.

I'm sure there are people around here that will argue that all of this is agood thing for Syracuse, but to me, it's a very clear sign of a university that is entirely focused on self preservation, in a struggling community and the athletics move to the ACC and the way it's been done, makes perfect sense.

They needed a guaranteed paycheck up there in Syracuse.

I still would be shaking in my boots, if all of my broadcasting rights for all of my athletic department for the next 20+ years hinged on a home and home partnership for scheduling with Boston College, and the whims of ESPN to fill their airtime.

FYI: UConn has taken what was one of the smallest endowments in the entire country for an institution with our profile and increased it by 20% in one year in 2011, through the uconn foundation by raising approx. $50mill and got the endowment figure up to approx $315 mill. Syracuse endowment is much larger, approaching $1bill, if not more, and has been much larger historically.

It all starts with leadership from the top, we've got a president now, who doesn't think small time, we need an AD that doesn't think small time, because we've most certainly got 2 basketball coaches, and now a football coach in the three money makers that haven't thought small time, at any point in their careers, and certainly don't now.

The growth potential of UConn, is a reservoir just waiting to be tapped. In all aspects.

The AAU is kicking members out because the nation's research budget has been slashed.

The AAU is not an academic organization as much as it is a lobbying group. Headquarters on K Street. With less $$ to go around, they are slashing. Cuse didn't run afoul of the org so much as the org sees less pie to go around in the future. There have literally been letters sent out signalling that more culling is in the works.

 

[zls44]

Funny then, how the Chancellor up there graciously "withdrew" from the AAU 6 months ago, rather than face the embarrassment of getting kicked out.

http://chronicle.com/article/Syracuse-U-Facing-a-Forced/127363/

They aren't hurting for money. Ok? Not in any way, shape or form. They are incredibly succesful with fundraising and will be FAR FAR moreso than UConn going forward.

You talk about the ESPN contract like it's a bad thing. You think a guaranteed $15-17 million a year for the next 15 years is a bad thing? Know what's worse? Guaranteed $5-10 million a year the next 15 years.

 

[upstater]

i don't want to start more of a arguement but i do have a question.

How close is UConn to being a AAU member? i know recently they have dumped $$ into research and more grants and what ever else. I was told last fall that the school was close to being able to apply and get in? Isn't it a small group of schools in that and they don't like making the group bigger?

Not very close. The AAU is cutting, not adding. Very little UConn can do at this point. It's not a matter of surpassing the bottom quarter of the AAU. It's a matter of vaulting into the third quarter.

 

[Carl Spackler]

The AAU is kicking members out because the nation's research budget has been slashed.

The AAU is not an academic organization as much as it is a lobbying group. Headquarters on K Street. With less $$ to go around, they are slashing. Cuse didn't run afoul of the org so much as the org sees less pie to go around in the future. There have literally been letters sent out signalling that more culling is in the works.

I understand that. Do some research though on what Syracuse has done with their research programs and projects. This is at least a 10 year process that's going on up there. IMO, they have basically put nearly every resource they've got into projects that are locally funded and are geared toward pumping up the local community. To me, if you're looking to grow, if the big time federal dollars aren't available, a major focuse should be on the largest private industries you can find, wherever they may be, not focusing on making sure that the local high schools are graduating their students at at least a respectable rate. Syracuse has turned the major focus of their research funding to projects that are centered on improving life in upstate new york. In an environment of restricted federal spending, that's clearly a self preservation move, not a growth move. My opinion.

As for the spending, cash situation, Cuse has a billion dollar endowment. They took a $300 million hit a few years ago, based on bad local investements, and it was a hiccup. Our entire endowment is just over $300 million. Taking a $300 million hit would bankrupt us right now.

President Herbst, priority #1 is growing the endowment, and so far she's done a great job.

As for ESPN, the paycheck is absolutely signidiant. Big east football/bball schools netted 8.6 million last year based on big east conference affiliation as dual members (Numbers released in memphis joingin press statements, meaning that memphis was told that they can expect revenue similar).

A $15 - $17 million payout is clearly double that.

But yes, I think that signing over exclusivety to a broadcasting company for all of a conferences broadcasting rights, is a terrible idea.

 

[junglehusky]

Everybody's endowment took a percentage hit when the market took a spin in '08. Maybe some institutions had more invested in Wall Street than others, but nobody came out of it unscathed.

 

[zls44]

They will make more money in the ACC on the contract than they will in the Big East. By several million. If that's accurate, then how are they struggling?

 

[Jericho]

If ND joins a conference, it won't be because of academics. All their other sports other than football will be scheduling the BE. So why does football suddenly make a hair's bit of difference to the academic side? It makes no sense. Is football the only sport that impacts academics?

It's not because of academics. No one's suggesting its the sole reason. But it's a factor. And it's why Notre Dame will not join the Big East full fledged. If Notre Dame has to join, its going to be the Big 10 or ACC. The SEC, Big 12, and the Big East aren't even in the discussion.

 

[DeacKillsaDevil]

http://m.tigernet.com/m/view/story.do?id=10366

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

 

[CTMike]

Good read. That throws some water on the rumor unfortunately. But then again I'm sure he couldn't comment even if Clemson to Big12 was imminent.

 

[Carl Spackler]

They will make more money in the ACC on the contract than they will in the Big East. By several million. If that's accurate, then how are they struggling?

The university in the past decade has had to divert everything they've got into helping the local community survive. As upstater correctly notes, the AAU has modified it's membership criteria significantly, and put all members under review, to reflect what's happening in the federal governemnt regarding academic research funding.

From what I"ve learned recently though, even if the AAU hadn't modified it's criteria, SU would still have fallen significantly below AAU standards in research programs that are federally funded. They've essentially given up going after federal dollars to any signfiicant degree, and instead of pursuing large private industries nationally, and globally, are mostly are going after state dollars, adn local dollars. THe diversion of money out of New York City to upstate new york does not make people happy down in our neck of the woods. I wasn't aware of any of this until just about aweek ago, as I haven't really paid much attention to Cuse other than the b-ball program since the 90s.

They done a great job up there in going after alumni donations, and the most definitely have an endowment that is in the billion dollar figure range, but for an institution that size, with that history, to be focusing on the funding and research projects that they are concentrated on now, after a half century of being an AAU institution, well I don't know how else to put it, but to me, that means clearly that Syracuse University leadership in the past decade has made a conscious decision that the local community up there is failing, and they are in survival mode, to keep it going.

They are actually doing a good job of it, and after learning all this recently, it makes perfect sense that they'd be running for the guaranteed paycheck from ESPN that the ACC provides, rather than what the Big East was doing, taking the risk of going on the open market.

Whether or not you agree that the community up there in upstate is in bad shape, I don't care.

But I don't understand why people that have anythign to do with syracuse can be excited about a yearly $15million paycheck, for a university with a billion dollar endowment, in a small market community (struggling or not).....and understand what comes along with it.

What comes along with that 14 team scheduling in the ACC, is that the only annual home and home partner for all sports (football and basketball most important) is Boston College. That's fact, it came out a week ago. THat means that Duke, UNC, etc.... all those programs that you think you are going to get, are only coming Syracuse every other year. You're also playing post season b-ball in Greensboro instead of MSG. Syracuse, through the ACC, has now given up All Tiers of broadcasting to the ACC for all sports. THat means Syracuse doesn't get any say in when they will be playing football games. Thursday night football, get used to it. Wait never mind that, Wednesday night football get used to it, because the NFL just announced a full slate of thursday night games coming, and espn isgoing to be stupid enough to go head ot head with the NFL, with ACC football. And all of that, for the next quarter century. for accepting approx $8mill a more a year in a guaranteed paycheck, instead of going on the open market with the Big East.

You may not believe me, but I don't care about that either. THere are people that have supported Syracuse for a very long time, that are not happy at all with this move, especially after the scheduling partnership with BC came out.

THey already had an agreement in place to start scheduling BC again as a non-conf opponent..

 

[zls44]

This is simple.

Football makes the money. Syracuse wants money. Playing North Carolina, Florida State, BC, Pitt, Maryland etc. will make a lot more money than playing, oh, ANYBODY in the reconstituted Big East. Anybody. Every one of those programs will bring more fans (even BC, maybe 15-10 against BSU fans) and generate a LOT more buzz and excitement in the community, which is what drives fundraising.

Carl, you are the only one here who thinks this conference is anything but a complete mess/failure/pathetic joke. Maybe it's time to stop with the 29 paragraph missives.

When you are stark-raving mad that everyone is against you, the best thing to do is to look in the mirror. That's where you'll find the person who is wrong on this.

 

[Carl Spackler]

This is simple.

Football makes the money. Syracuse wants money. Playing North Carolina, Florida State, BC, Pitt, Maryland etc. will make a lot more money than playing, oh, ANYBODY in the reconstituted Big East. Anybody. Every one of those programs will bring more fans (even BC, maybe 15-10 against BSU fans) and generate a LOT more buzz and excitement in the community, which is what drives fundraising.

Carl, you are the only one here who thinks this conference is anything but a complete mess/failure/pathetic joke. Maybe it's time to stop with the 29 paragraph missives.

When you are stark-raving mad that everyone is against you, the best thing to do is to look in the mirror. That's where you'll find the person who is wrong on this.

It's going to come down to recruiting. As it always does. There's a history, model, to follow here in BC. And I've yet to hear anyone justify how getting tied to BC as the only home and home annual for sports scheduling is going to be a good thing. Every single argument you present, is the exact same thing that BC presented in 2003-2004. Syracuse as a better presence in it's own market than BC, for sure, but it's still a tiny market, in the national scale. Athletically, it's going to come down to recruiting and competition level.

When Miami came north in 1991, they were a program that was regularly competiting for national titles. When VTech came east, in 1991 in football only, and were begging to join the Big East in all sports, they were a nationally prominent program, and continued to compete for national titles.

When Miami and VTech went south, they wanted Syracuse - the ACC wanted Syracuse, Syracuse was still a nationally prominent football program even though Pasqualoni was having a couple down years, having a bunch of newborns and trying to keep a family together, will make a coach go through some rough spots.

Miami, well Miami since 2002. BC has been ranked as high as #2 since going south, but what has that done for them? V.Tech, continues to compete.

Syracuse going south in 2012, is much more like BC going south in 2004 than Miami and V.Tech coming north and east in 1991. And on top that, getting tied to Boston College?

I'd be tting a brick if I were a syracuse athletic fan that understood anything about intercollegiate athletics.

It's going to come down to the ability to recruit - FOR ALL SPORTS - or Syracuse is going the route of BC. It's clear as day.

I'd be very, very concerned about the Athletic Director at Syracuse, and how they go about staffing their athletic department, specifically the football program, and the basketball program. SU basketball isn't going to have Boeheim forever.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Carl, you are the only one here who thinks this conference is anything but a complete mess/failure/pathetic joke. Maybe it's time to stop with the 29 paragraph missives.

I'm also one the only ones here, that really understands the intercollegiate sports landscape. Conferences come and go pal, they come and go. Competition does not. Only the level of competition changes. If the big east fractured, you can clearly call it a failure. Until any conference folds up shopt, you don't call it a pathetic joke. By saying as much, you have no clue how much money, and how many lives are affected by the things being discussed around here. And trust me, the failure of the big east conference, is somethign that I would have embraced since 1997, up until the things I've seen from leadership coming out of providence, just this year.

There is absolutely ZERO reason to think that the level of competition in the Big East is going to change,in any sport. Contrary to the ESPN media empire, the level of competition in the Big East, in all sports, is equal to, if not better, than any level of competition anywhere in the country.

But go ahead, continue with the everyone else is better off, and woe is me crap.

 

[businesslawyer]

There is absolutely ZERO reason to think that the level of competition in the Big East is going to change,in any sport. Contrary to the ESPN media empire, the level of competition in the Big East, in all sports, is equal to, if not better, than any level of competition anywhere in the country.

But go ahead, continue with the everyone else is better off, and woe is me crap.

Do you really read what you write? The one good thing that can be said about this reshuffling is that the quality of Big East football on the field has not changed by this.

But if you don't think the level of basketball has gone down with the loss of Pitt, Syracuse, WVU, you really are insane. And if you don't see that we've lost prestige with the football changes, even if the prestige isn't backed up by play on the field, you have no business trumpeting to the world how much better you understand things than anyone else. And this is coming from someone who is perfectly willing to make lemonade out of lemons while we wait. But not to drink unsweetened lemon juice and pretend it's lemonade..

 

[metsfan2323]

Carl, you are the only one here who thinks this conference is anything but a complete mess/failure/pathetic joke. Maybe it's time to stop with the 29 paragraph missives.

When you are stark-raving mad that everyone is against you, the best thing to do is to look in the mirror. That's where you'll find the person who is wrong on this.

This conference is our home and it is far from a joke. Only a stark raving mad lunatic would continuously crap all over their house the way you have been. You really need to find another team to root for.

 

[businesslawyer]

This conference is our home and it is far from a joke. Only a stark raving mad lunatic would continuously crap all over their house the way you have been. You really need to find another team to root for.

I agree with this too by the way. We have, in terms of quality, a BCS football conference and we have, in terms of quality, a power basketball conference. Geography, academic reputations and athletic prestige have taken a big hit. It all is what it all is. But we're not dead and buried as a program, and constant crapping on it can in fact make it worse by discouraging fans from going, watching and donating.

 

[zls44]

This conference is our home and it is far from a joke.

It has teams in Connecticut, San Diego and Boise. One is a highly respected institution of higher learning, one is a commuter school and the other is worse than Tunxis.

AND it still has Rutgers. The entire nation is laughing.

 

[metsfan2323]

It has teams in Connecticut, San Diego and Boise. One is a highly respected institution of higher learning, one is a commuter school and the other is worse than Tunxis.

AND it still has Rutgers. The entire nation is laughing.

The nation is not spewing their personal misery into the Boneyard, you are. Please stop or going away.

 

[noeynox]

It has teams in Connecticut, San Diego and Boise. One is a highly respected institution of higher learning, one is a commuter school and the other is worse than Tunxis.

AND it still has Rutgers. The entire nation is laughing.

What is the alternative? We are where we are. I look forward to seeing Boise State play football at The Rent. Memphis not so much. This is the best we've got, I don't think anyone feels its ideal, but for as bad as our league is supposed to be, you see teams leaving their conferences to come here.

 

[zls44]

What is the alternative? We are where we are. I look forward to seeing Boise State play football at The Rent. Memphis not so much. This is the best we've got, I don't think anyone feels its ideal, but for as bad as our league is supposed to be, you see teams leaving their conferences to come here.

Just go to 9 teams. Why do we need so many other crappy teams? The Big East Football Championship Game? Are you kidding?

 

[Jericho]

What is the alternative? We are where we are. I look forward to seeing Boise State play football at The Rent. Memphis not so much. This is the best we've got, I don't think anyone feels its ideal, but for as bad as our league is supposed to be, you see teams leaving their conferences to come here.

It seems like people are just arguing semantics. The Big East is still clearly a step up from the lower tier Division 1 football concerences like Con-USA/Mountain West. It's also a step down from the Top conferences SEC/Big 10.

The move to add Boise State helps the conference tread water in football to a certain extent. Of course the Big East was not highly thought of to begin with. Then it lost its two best programs in Miami and VT. Now it loses it's next best in West Virginia. The entire conference is made up of schools that the BCS ignored less than 10 years ago outside of Rutgers and UConn (who wasn't even playing Division 1 football). That seems like the conference is backtracking from already being considered a medicore conference.

Now maybe the new additions rise up to the level of BCS play rather than bring down the overall play to Conference USA levels. But it's all speculative and all kind of a crappy outcome no matter what.

That said, it could be worse. A conference squarely in the middle of football and still on the high end in basketball is not bad. It's just not ideal and not where UConn would like to be.

 

[Drumguy]

This is simple.

Football makes the money. Syracuse wants money. Playing North Carolina, Florida State, BC, Pitt, Maryland etc. will make a lot more money than playing, oh, ANYBODY in the reconstituted Big East. Anybody. Every one of those programs will bring more fans (even BC, maybe 15-10 against BSU fans) and generate a LOT more buzz and excitement in the community, which is what drives fundraising.

Carl, you are the only one here who thinks this conference is anything but a complete mess/failure/pathetic joke. Maybe it's time to stop with the 29 paragraph missives.

When you are stark-raving mad that everyone is against you, the best thing to do is to look in the mirror. That's where you'll find the person who is wrong on this.

Gotta tell you zls, you should go have a scotch or something. You're taking this much too persaonlly.

 

[The Viking]

I've got two really great ideas:

1) Let's keep the comments within a thread relatively close to what the subject of the thread is. My first thought was wow, 7 pages of information/conversation about the potential of FSU and Clemson skirting the ACC for the Big XII. then I realize what a lot of these posts are. Constant bitching about our current/future conference and our fellow universities. Followed by the understandable defense of the hand we're dealt. Which leads to #2.

2) Open up a thread titled "I hate our conference and here's why" and let all the hate flow into there so the majority of us can be spared the doom and gloom that shows up in so many of these threads.