Francona Out

[bpo57]

Not everybody. He built up the Mets, he developed players and he took them to the World Series. They haven't done jack since. I know people don't like smart guys these days but he has a good handle on the situation. I heard a clip today of him saying that we are in a "post-moneyball era". That is spot on.

His personality alone would disqualify him. Plus his tv commentary is full of aflac duck inducing moments.

 

[Da_Aisijimo_Gou]

In Boston, someone may want to make some adjustments.

 

[sinkhole]

Dave Martinez is being tossed around down here. I don't see Torre stepping into that and Bobby V would be enteraining as hell but is arrogance is just off the charts.

 

[StoweD210]

From what I have been reading the clubhouse seems to be a mess and Francona thought it was time for a new start. Apparently some Red Sox starters were even drinking during games they didn't start.

And in September, they all pitched like they had been drinking in the games they did start.

 

[Waquoit]

His personality alone would disqualify him. Plus his tv commentary is full of aflac duck inducing moments.

I'm not a Met fan, but when Bobby V. was canned it wasn't because the team rebelled against him was it? He gave young guys a chance, the team played better. He's a bright guy, he's adjusting as he goes along. We need a personality, is DeMarlo Hale going to be able to control the team?

 

[FfldCntyFan]

At the time it came down to either canning the manager (Valentine) or the GM (his name escapes me but he worked for ESPN until getting canned for an illicit affair with a female employee) and the GM had Wilpon's son's ear.

Considering the fact that Bobby V took the Mets to the World Series with basically a minor league outfield says a lot about his abilities. I'm not sure however if he would be the right guy for the Sox however as he can be a bit abrasive.

 

[iam76]

Growing up a diehard redsox fan and playing baseball from 3years old to this day( i am 30 ) i can't help but be a little bit sad about this. Now i am one of the first people to complain about Francoma's managing style... But This is the man who was in the dugout for the greatest championship (2004 ) i have ever seen... 85 years or so it took. As a true fan of the game and of good people in general i am sad to see him go out this way. I would of rather him leave after a normal season. This man won two championships and was the second longest manager we have had since i dunno some guy from 80 years ago... In my eyes he deserves to be celebrated in boston.. This is truly a sad time to have the man who brought what noone else could go out this way.

Please Theo and company... Next manager needs to not pinch run for our best players in tie or one run games...

Pry away Larussa and duncan from STL.. leads to pujols.. or hire someone like Bud Black ( pitching mentality is good )
Trade Lackey to San Diego.. Pay the way...
Hire a manager that will put some of these entitled balloon knots in their place.. youk...
Sign Ells to a multi year
Give Lavarnway and reddick a shot.
Let Wake go. Retire his number.. Celebrate him
Sign a right handed power/avereage hitter if you can find one.

 

[Vuce]

I am reading Moneyball now before I go see the movie and if Theo follows the philosophy he will hire a manager that is a stat freak. Beane and the Moneyball types view the manager as a sort of not important part of the whole equation. I don't think LaRussa and other high profile managers fit that bill. Theo will get someone he can control (maybe that is not the right word).

 

[zyron]

At the time it came down to either canning the manager (Valentine) or the GM (his name escapes me but he worked for ESPN until getting canned for an illicit affair with a female employee) and the GM had Wilpon's son's ear.

Ahh, Steve Phillips and the she-beast. The one guy you believe has a sex addiction for doing something that ugly.

 

[progrocks]

Managers are hired to be fired. If you let one go, it is always the right move, it is who you hire as the replacement than is usually the problem.

As for Bobby V, most Mets fans with a clue about baseball (which is not all) genuinely like him and think he is a good manager. When he was canned it was a he or Phillips thing, and he got the can, and Stevie was let go the following year. (they chose the wrong guy) The 2000 Mets team was not good. The outfield was horrific (heck, Timo Perez was the main catalysis by the end of the season) and while the infield over all was fine, RayO/Bordick combo was the worst offense ever to come from a position of a team that made the series.

 

[bpo57]

Managers are hired to be fired. If you let one go, it is always the right move, it is who you hire as the replacement than is usually the problem.

As for Bobby V, most Mets fans with a clue about baseball (which is not all) genuinely like him and think he is a good manager. When he was canned it was a he or Phillips thing, and he got the can, and Stevie was let go the following year. (they chose the wrong guy) The 2000 Mets team was not good. The outfield was horrific (heck, Timo Perez was the main catalysis by the end of the season) and while the infield over all was fine, RayO/Bordick combo was the worst offense ever to come from a position of a team that made the series.

Let's not get too carried away with Valentine's accomplishments. In 15 years of managing in MLB he never won a division title, went to the playoffs twice as a wildcard and finished with a career winning percentage of .510. Not bad but not enough to compensate for his grating personality.

 

[Waquoit]

Let's not get too carried away with Valentine's accomplishments. In 15 years of managing in MLB he never won a division title, went to the playoffs twice as a wildcard and finished with a career winning percentage of .510.

Sounds like Joe Torre before he got the Yankees job.

 

[bpo57]

Sounds like Joe Torre before he got the Yankees job.

Unfortunately I don't see any young stars named Rivera, Pettitte, Jeter, Posada ready to greet the new Sox manager as was the case with Torre in 1996. Theo has done a very mediocre job of developing young talent.

 

[Huskymaniac]

The sox fired the wrong guy. Francona was not the problem. If Theo has been calling the roster shots, he is the problem. If someone higher up has been forcing him to make some of the moves he made, they are the problem. I think the Yankees have similar issues. I have yet to hear anyone say anything that convinces me that the Yankees are as good as they should be given their payroll. They are a very good team. They have the payroll of a team that should crush the competition, leaving no doubt as to which is the best team in baseball. The guy the Tigers threw out there yesterday should not be able to completely shut down a lineup that is paid as much as the one the Yankees have. Not even if he was shot up with speed and himself blew sunshine up his arse before the game.

 

[Waquoit]

Theo has done a very mediocre job of developing young talent.

Kidding, right?

 

[bpo57]

Kidding, right?

I wish that I were kidding. It stuns me that you think the Sox have done a good job developing talent in the last five years.

Tell me about all of the great young arms in the Sox system that have come up in the last five years. Sox had to go outside to make moves such as DiceK, Lackey, Bedard, etc. because they got bupkis in the farm system. They also had to sign or trade for Okajima, Morales, Albers, Wheeler, Aceves because they have such little pitching depth. Also had to sign or trade for position players like Crawford, Conor Jackson, Scutaro, Cameron because they don't have much on the farm for position players either. Who are the good arms that have been developed other than Bard? Michael Bowden? Felix Doubrant? LOL. How about catcher where they had to trade for Salty who can't hit his way out of a paper bag?Any promising catchers been developed in the last decade?

 

[sinkhole]

I wish that I were kidding. It stuns me that you think the Sox have done a good job developing talent in the last five years.

Tell me about all of the great young arms in the Sox system that have come up in the last five years. Sox had to go outside to make moves such as DiceK, Lackey, Bedard, etc. because they got bupkis in the farm system. They also had to sign or trade for Okajima, Morales, Albers, Wheeler, Aceves because they have such little pitching depth. Also had to sign or trade for position players like Crawford, Conor Jackson, Scutaro, Cameron because they don't have much on the farm for position players either. Who are the good arms that have been developed other than Bard? Michael Bowden? Felix Doubrant? LOL. How about catcher where they had to trade for Salty who can't hit his way out of a paper bag?Any promising catchers been developed in the last decade?

 

[doggydaddy]

I wish that I were kidding. It stuns me that you think the Sox have done a good job developing talent in the last five years.

Tell me about all of the great young arms in the Sox system that have come up in the last five years. Sox had to go outside to make moves such as DiceK, Lackey, Bedard, etc. because they got bupkis in the farm system. They also had to sign or trade for Okajima, Morales, Albers, Wheeler, Aceves because they have such little pitching depth. Also had to sign or trade for position players like Crawford, Conor Jackson, Scutaro, Cameron because they don't have much on the farm for position players either. Who are the good arms that have been developed other than Bard? Michael Bowden? Felix Doubrant? LOL. How about catcher where they had to trade for Salty who can't hit his way out of a paper bag?Any promising catchers been developed in the last decade?

How far back would you consider young players being developed. I would think that Paplebon, Lester and Bucholz would count. Pedroia, Ellsbury, Youk are 3 more. Reddick is a good young player that will get better.
They've done a good job. The minors are a little empty right now, but they drafted well again.

Can't believe I'm sticking up for the Sox organization.

 

[bpo57]

How far back would you consider young players being developed. I would think that Paplebon, Lester and Bucholz would count. Pedroia, Ellsbury, Youk are 3 more. Reddick is a good young player that will get better.
They've done a good job. The minors are a little empty right now, but they drafted well again.

Can't believe I'm sticking up for the Sox organization.

Lester and Youk were drafted prior to Theo. The others you mentioned were very astute moves. Unfortunately they came 6-8 years ago. This is a what have you done for me lately business, doggy. And lately he ain't done diddly. Your characterization of the minors being a little empty is charitable. If they had developed and drafted decent talent in the last five years they wouldn't have had to march head long into free agency, particularly on the pitching front.

 

[doggydaddy]

Lester and Youk were drafted prior to Theo. The others you mentioned were very astute moves. Unfortunately they came 6-8 years ago. This is a what have you done for me lately business, doggy. And lately he ain't done diddly. Your characterization of the minors being a little empty is charitable. If they had developed and drafted decent talent in the last five years they wouldn't have had to march head long into free agency, particularly on the pitching front.

All good points. Thanks.

So, how do you see this off season shaking out? I read that Epstein is 50/50 to stay/leave.

I figure that Wakefield and Varitek are gone. Do they trade Ellsbury at his highest value this off season for pitching? Can they live with Salty?

Should be an interesting off season for the Sox. And the Yanks. After Burnout loses tonight (yes, I'm Mr. Negative today), Yanks have some decisions to make too. Does CC opt out? I doubt that. His performance the end of this year would not get him as much as the Yanks have to pay him if he doesn't opt out.

 

[Waquoit]

I wish that I were kidding. It stuns me that you think the Sox have done a good job developing talent in the last five years.

You said, "Theo has done a very mediocre job of developing young talent." When challenged you changed the argument. I win.

 

[suzyq]

All good points. Thanks.

So, how do you see this off season shaking out? I read that Epstein is 50/50 to stay/leave.

I figure that Wakefield and Varitek are gone. Do they trade Ellsbury at his highest value this off season for pitching? Can they live with Salty?

Should be an interesting off season for the Sox. And the Yanks. After Burnout loses tonight (yes, I'm Mr. Negative today), Yanks have some decisions to make too. Does CC opt out? I doubt that. His performance the end of this year would not get him as much as the Yanks have to pay him if he doesn't opt out.

Is there a Yankee fan today that doesn't think Burnett gags it up tonight? The Yankee fan in my house has much the same expectation as you.

The CC thing will be interesting. Is he worth the money to get you to the postseason if he isn't very good in the post season? Is he fat and out of shape or gassed from overuse? ( I don't actually think he was overused). Nice to see ARod earning his money though.

 

[bpo57]

All good points. Thanks.

So, how do you see this off season shaking out? I read that Epstein is 50/50 to stay/leave.

I figure that Wakefield and Varitek are gone. Do they trade Ellsbury at his highest value this off season for pitching? Can they live with Salty?

Should be an interesting off season for the Sox. And the Yanks. After Burnout loses tonight (yes, I'm Mr. Negative today), Yanks have some decisions to make too. Does CC opt out? I doubt that. His performance the end of this year would not get him as much as the Yanks have to pay him if he doesn't opt out.

Hard to know what the Sox will do but they are in bad need of starting pitching and yet their rivals have some of that same need too so a quick fix is unlikely. Wakefield and Varitek should retire. I never understood the fascination with Salty as a propsect and having watched him all year I am even less of a fan. Huge holes in his swing. They'd better get a king's ransom for ellsbury or else keep him.

You never know with Burnett. He would drive me nuts if i were a NYY fan but it wouldn't shock me if he pitched well. Bottom line is NYY bats have to come alive. As somebody rooting against them, it drives me nuts when teams pitch to Cano. I would go after ARod.

 

[bpo57]

You said, "Theo has done a very mediocre job of developing young talent." When challenged you changed the argument. I win.

Fine. In the last five years Theo has done a poor job of developing young talent. That better? Of course he has done an amazingly good job of signing free agents, right? LOL. Renteria, Lugo, Crawford, Lackey, Cameron, Drew, DiceK, Clement, all say hello.

 

[suzyq]

I never understood the fascination with Salty as a propsect and having watched him all year I am even less of a fan. Huge holes in his swing.

What do you think of Levarnway?