Francona Out

[FfldCntyFan]

At the time it came down to either canning the manager (Valentine) or the GM (his name escapes me but he worked for ESPN until getting canned for an illicit affair with a female employee) and the GM had Wilpon's son's ear.

Considering the fact that Bobby V took the Mets to the World Series with basically a minor league outfield says a lot about his abilities. I'm not sure however if he would be the right guy for the Sox however as he can be a bit abrasive.

 

[iam76]

Growing up a diehard redsox fan and playing baseball from 3years old to this day( i am 30 ) i can't help but be a little bit sad about this. Now i am one of the first people to complain about Francoma's managing style... But This is the man who was in the dugout for the greatest championship (2004 ) i have ever seen... 85 years or so it took. As a true fan of the game and of good people in general i am sad to see him go out this way. I would of rather him leave after a normal season. This man won two championships and was the second longest manager we have had since i dunno some guy from 80 years ago... In my eyes he deserves to be celebrated in boston.. This is truly a sad time to have the man who brought what noone else could go out this way.

Please Theo and company... Next manager needs to not pinch run for our best players in tie or one run games...

Pry away Larussa and duncan from STL.. leads to pujols.. or hire someone like Bud Black ( pitching mentality is good )
Trade Lackey to San Diego.. Pay the way...
Hire a manager that will put some of these entitled balloon knots in their place.. youk...
Sign Ells to a multi year
Give Lavarnway and reddick a shot.
Let Wake go. Retire his number.. Celebrate him
Sign a right handed power/avereage hitter if you can find one.

 

[Vuce]

I am reading Moneyball now before I go see the movie and if Theo follows the philosophy he will hire a manager that is a stat freak. Beane and the Moneyball types view the manager as a sort of not important part of the whole equation. I don't think LaRussa and other high profile managers fit that bill. Theo will get someone he can control (maybe that is not the right word).

 

[zyron]

At the time it came down to either canning the manager (Valentine) or the GM (his name escapes me but he worked for ESPN until getting canned for an illicit affair with a female employee) and the GM had Wilpon's son's ear.

Ahh, Steve Phillips and the she-beast. The one guy you believe has a sex addiction for doing something that ugly.

 

[progrocks]

Managers are hired to be fired. If you let one go, it is always the right move, it is who you hire as the replacement than is usually the problem.

As for Bobby V, most Mets fans with a clue about baseball (which is not all) genuinely like him and think he is a good manager. When he was canned it was a he or Phillips thing, and he got the can, and Stevie was let go the following year. (they chose the wrong guy) The 2000 Mets team was not good. The outfield was horrific (heck, Timo Perez was the main catalysis by the end of the season) and while the infield over all was fine, RayO/Bordick combo was the worst offense ever to come from a position of a team that made the series.

 

[bpo57]

Managers are hired to be fired. If you let one go, it is always the right move, it is who you hire as the replacement than is usually the problem.

As for Bobby V, most Mets fans with a clue about baseball (which is not all) genuinely like him and think he is a good manager. When he was canned it was a he or Phillips thing, and he got the can, and Stevie was let go the following year. (they chose the wrong guy) The 2000 Mets team was not good. The outfield was horrific (heck, Timo Perez was the main catalysis by the end of the season) and while the infield over all was fine, RayO/Bordick combo was the worst offense ever to come from a position of a team that made the series.

Let's not get too carried away with Valentine's accomplishments. In 15 years of managing in MLB he never won a division title, went to the playoffs twice as a wildcard and finished with a career winning percentage of .510. Not bad but not enough to compensate for his grating personality.

 

[Waquoit]

Let's not get too carried away with Valentine's accomplishments. In 15 years of managing in MLB he never won a division title, went to the playoffs twice as a wildcard and finished with a career winning percentage of .510.

Sounds like Joe Torre before he got the Yankees job.

 

[bpo57]

Sounds like Joe Torre before he got the Yankees job.

Unfortunately I don't see any young stars named Rivera, Pettitte, Jeter, Posada ready to greet the new Sox manager as was the case with Torre in 1996. Theo has done a very mediocre job of developing young talent.

 

[Huskymaniac]

The sox fired the wrong guy. Francona was not the problem. If Theo has been calling the roster shots, he is the problem. If someone higher up has been forcing him to make some of the moves he made, they are the problem. I think the Yankees have similar issues. I have yet to hear anyone say anything that convinces me that the Yankees are as good as they should be given their payroll. They are a very good team. They have the payroll of a team that should crush the competition, leaving no doubt as to which is the best team in baseball. The guy the Tigers threw out there yesterday should not be able to completely shut down a lineup that is paid as much as the one the Yankees have. Not even if he was shot up with speed and himself blew sunshine up his arse before the game.

 

[Waquoit]

Theo has done a very mediocre job of developing young talent.

Kidding, right?

 

[bpo57]

Kidding, right?

I wish that I were kidding. It stuns me that you think the Sox have done a good job developing talent in the last five years.

Tell me about all of the great young arms in the Sox system that have come up in the last five years. Sox had to go outside to make moves such as DiceK, Lackey, Bedard, etc. because they got bupkis in the farm system. They also had to sign or trade for Okajima, Morales, Albers, Wheeler, Aceves because they have such little pitching depth. Also had to sign or trade for position players like Crawford, Conor Jackson, Scutaro, Cameron because they don't have much on the farm for position players either. Who are the good arms that have been developed other than Bard? Michael Bowden? Felix Doubrant? LOL. How about catcher where they had to trade for Salty who can't hit his way out of a paper bag?Any promising catchers been developed in the last decade?

 

[sinkhole]

I wish that I were kidding. It stuns me that you think the Sox have done a good job developing talent in the last five years.

Tell me about all of the great young arms in the Sox system that have come up in the last five years. Sox had to go outside to make moves such as DiceK, Lackey, Bedard, etc. because they got bupkis in the farm system. They also had to sign or trade for Okajima, Morales, Albers, Wheeler, Aceves because they have such little pitching depth. Also had to sign or trade for position players like Crawford, Conor Jackson, Scutaro, Cameron because they don't have much on the farm for position players either. Who are the good arms that have been developed other than Bard? Michael Bowden? Felix Doubrant? LOL. How about catcher where they had to trade for Salty who can't hit his way out of a paper bag?Any promising catchers been developed in the last decade?

 

[doggydaddy]

I wish that I were kidding. It stuns me that you think the Sox have done a good job developing talent in the last five years.

Tell me about all of the great young arms in the Sox system that have come up in the last five years. Sox had to go outside to make moves such as DiceK, Lackey, Bedard, etc. because they got bupkis in the farm system. They also had to sign or trade for Okajima, Morales, Albers, Wheeler, Aceves because they have such little pitching depth. Also had to sign or trade for position players like Crawford, Conor Jackson, Scutaro, Cameron because they don't have much on the farm for position players either. Who are the good arms that have been developed other than Bard? Michael Bowden? Felix Doubrant? LOL. How about catcher where they had to trade for Salty who can't hit his way out of a paper bag?Any promising catchers been developed in the last decade?

How far back would you consider young players being developed. I would think that Paplebon, Lester and Bucholz would count. Pedroia, Ellsbury, Youk are 3 more. Reddick is a good young player that will get better.
They've done a good job. The minors are a little empty right now, but they drafted well again.

Can't believe I'm sticking up for the Sox organization.

 

[bpo57]

How far back would you consider young players being developed. I would think that Paplebon, Lester and Bucholz would count. Pedroia, Ellsbury, Youk are 3 more. Reddick is a good young player that will get better.
They've done a good job. The minors are a little empty right now, but they drafted well again.

Can't believe I'm sticking up for the Sox organization.

Lester and Youk were drafted prior to Theo. The others you mentioned were very astute moves. Unfortunately they came 6-8 years ago. This is a what have you done for me lately business, doggy. And lately he ain't done diddly. Your characterization of the minors being a little empty is charitable. If they had developed and drafted decent talent in the last five years they wouldn't have had to march head long into free agency, particularly on the pitching front.

 

[doggydaddy]

Lester and Youk were drafted prior to Theo. The others you mentioned were very astute moves. Unfortunately they came 6-8 years ago. This is a what have you done for me lately business, doggy. And lately he ain't done diddly. Your characterization of the minors being a little empty is charitable. If they had developed and drafted decent talent in the last five years they wouldn't have had to march head long into free agency, particularly on the pitching front.

All good points. Thanks.

So, how do you see this off season shaking out? I read that Epstein is 50/50 to stay/leave.

I figure that Wakefield and Varitek are gone. Do they trade Ellsbury at his highest value this off season for pitching? Can they live with Salty?

Should be an interesting off season for the Sox. And the Yanks. After Burnout loses tonight (yes, I'm Mr. Negative today), Yanks have some decisions to make too. Does CC opt out? I doubt that. His performance the end of this year would not get him as much as the Yanks have to pay him if he doesn't opt out.

 

[Waquoit]

I wish that I were kidding. It stuns me that you think the Sox have done a good job developing talent in the last five years.

You said, "Theo has done a very mediocre job of developing young talent." When challenged you changed the argument. I win.

 

[suzyq]

All good points. Thanks.

So, how do you see this off season shaking out? I read that Epstein is 50/50 to stay/leave.

I figure that Wakefield and Varitek are gone. Do they trade Ellsbury at his highest value this off season for pitching? Can they live with Salty?

Should be an interesting off season for the Sox. And the Yanks. After Burnout loses tonight (yes, I'm Mr. Negative today), Yanks have some decisions to make too. Does CC opt out? I doubt that. His performance the end of this year would not get him as much as the Yanks have to pay him if he doesn't opt out.

Is there a Yankee fan today that doesn't think Burnett gags it up tonight? The Yankee fan in my house has much the same expectation as you.

The CC thing will be interesting. Is he worth the money to get you to the postseason if he isn't very good in the post season? Is he fat and out of shape or gassed from overuse? ( I don't actually think he was overused). Nice to see ARod earning his money though.

 

[bpo57]

All good points. Thanks.

So, how do you see this off season shaking out? I read that Epstein is 50/50 to stay/leave.

I figure that Wakefield and Varitek are gone. Do they trade Ellsbury at his highest value this off season for pitching? Can they live with Salty?

Should be an interesting off season for the Sox. And the Yanks. After Burnout loses tonight (yes, I'm Mr. Negative today), Yanks have some decisions to make too. Does CC opt out? I doubt that. His performance the end of this year would not get him as much as the Yanks have to pay him if he doesn't opt out.

Hard to know what the Sox will do but they are in bad need of starting pitching and yet their rivals have some of that same need too so a quick fix is unlikely. Wakefield and Varitek should retire. I never understood the fascination with Salty as a propsect and having watched him all year I am even less of a fan. Huge holes in his swing. They'd better get a king's ransom for ellsbury or else keep him.

You never know with Burnett. He would drive me nuts if i were a NYY fan but it wouldn't shock me if he pitched well. Bottom line is NYY bats have to come alive. As somebody rooting against them, it drives me nuts when teams pitch to Cano. I would go after ARod.

 

[bpo57]

You said, "Theo has done a very mediocre job of developing young talent." When challenged you changed the argument. I win.

Fine. In the last five years Theo has done a poor job of developing young talent. That better? Of course he has done an amazingly good job of signing free agents, right? LOL. Renteria, Lugo, Crawford, Lackey, Cameron, Drew, DiceK, Clement, all say hello.

 

[suzyq]

I never understood the fascination with Salty as a propsect and having watched him all year I am even less of a fan. Huge holes in his swing.

What do you think of Levarnway?

 

[iam76]

I wish that I were kidding. It stuns me that you think the Sox have done a good job developing talent in the last five years.

Tell me about all of the great young arms in the Sox system that have come up in the last five years. Sox had to go outside to make moves such as DiceK, Lackey, Bedard, etc. because they got bupkis in the farm system. They also had to sign or trade for Okajima, Morales, Albers, Wheeler, Aceves because they have such little pitching depth. Also had to sign or trade for position players like Crawford, Conor Jackson, Scutaro, Cameron because they don't have much on the farm for position players either. Who are the good arms that have been developed other than Bard? Michael Bowden? Felix Doubrant? LOL. How about catcher where they had to trade for Salty who can't hit his way out of a paper bag?Any promising catchers been developed in the last decade?

Not everyone always pans out. But also the guys that we had that were young and were on the verge of making this team we traded. We traded our best pitching prospect for Agone . We traded one in the Vmart trade. But honestly where would they have fit going into this season. Everything was built for this year to be a big year.. But when people got hurt it left us in a bind. Blame theo? maybe but having so many guys getting hurt and performing poorly does not help, and nobody saw it coming... We have a very good pitching prospect whos a year or so away... Anthony Renardo (sp)? Sox have drafted catchers who haven't panned out.. exposito was sposed to be the man.. before that shoppach.... And to say Salty cant hit is pretty funny (he batted 240 with 16 homeruns in less then 400 at bats.. He put together a pretty good season and improved his catching in a big way. Not a bad pickup for a team to have a catcher with some pop and is young. We are lucky to be in a market that can afford to trade pay for bigtime players. We also can draft bigtime players and pay them...

Does this year suck....yes... does last year suck... yes.. But the one thing that ties both of these together beyond manager and gm is our players health.. Both years we lost many key players by the time september came around. Yet we still won 90ish games...

I would hate if we lost Theo.. We have drafted well with him specially seeing our draft position each year. This past year we had a very nice draft... I think we are better off keeping Theo. Are there people to blame.. sure.. but sometimes things don't go as planned. I believe he should be given another year to right the ship.. overhaul the medical and training of our team.. and of course to get carl crawford to change his stance.., LOL

 

[doggydaddy]

And to say Salty cant hit is pretty funny (he batted 240 with 16 homeruns in less then 400 at bats.. He put together a pretty good season and improved his catching in a big way. Not a bad pickup for a team to have a catcher with some pop and is young.

You listed him at .240 and it was .235. Not a big difference, but .235 sucks.

He also had 119 K's in only 358 ABs. Horrific. And he doesn't walk either. .285 OBP as well.

He had a very good June and solid July. But his August was lousy and September, when the team could have used help from anyone, he batted .162 and had a .542 OPS.

He is no longer young either, going on 27 and into his prime.

 

[iam76]

there isnt much difference between 240 hitter and a 235 hitter.. they both are subpar. But for a catcher it doesnt suck so bad. For instance look at Kelly Shoppach... batted like 176 with 11 homers... I do agree Salty swings and misses to much equaling unproductive outs. but to pin anything on him would be foolish. Now maybe mr lavernway or whatever his name is can work with salty next year and hold us over till our draft pick from this year is ready if he even plays catcher for us..

You have to take salty for what he is. An improving defensive catcher that is basically an all or nothign power gap hitter... If you ask me thats not a bad option. If he played fulltime he would prolly bat 210-240 with 25 homers... not the best but not an automatic out.

the problem with this team was not salty.. the problem was a few of our core players being unhealthy and not playing at all. A healthy youk, Healthy A-gone, healthy beckett, A bullpen that doesnt overwork its setup man, and Crawful playing half as good as he can would have put this team into the playoffs. See alot of variables.

 

[zyron]

They'd better get a king's ransom for ellsbury or else keep him.

Also he is now Arbitration eligible and Boras is his agent. Wonder what they ask for after this season.

 

[bpo57]

Not everyone always pans out. But also the guys that we had that were young and were on the verge of making this team we traded. We traded our best pitching prospect for Agone . We traded one in the Vmart trade. But honestly where would they have fit going into this season. Everything was built for this year to be a big year.. But when people got hurt it left us in a bind. Blame theo? maybe but having so many guys getting hurt and performing poorly does not help, and nobody saw it coming... We have a very good pitching prospect whos a year or so away... Anthony Renardo (sp)? Sox have drafted catchers who haven't panned out.. exposito was sposed to be the man.. before that shoppach.... And to say Salty cant hit is pretty funny (he batted 240 with 16 homeruns in less then 400 at bats.. He put together a pretty good season and improved his catching in a big way. Not a bad pickup for a team to have a catcher with some pop and is young. We are lucky to be in a market that can afford to trade pay for bigtime players. We also can draft bigtime players and pay them...

Does this year suck....yes... does last year suck... yes.. But the one thing that ties both of these together beyond manager and gm is our players health.. Both years we lost many key players by the time september came around. Yet we still won 90ish games...

I would hate if we lost Theo.. We have drafted well with him specially seeing our draft position each year. This past year we had a very nice draft... I think we are better off keeping Theo. Are there people to blame.. sure.. but sometimes things don't go as planned. I believe he should be given another year to right the ship.. overhaul the medical and training of our team.. and of course to get carl crawford to change his stance.., LOL

You make some good points. My beef with Theo is that the supply of young up and comers seems to have stalled after the wave represented by ells, pedroia and buchholz. Lately not much of interest on that front. Maybe that changes in a few, hope so. And the free agent front has been a disaster.

As doggy pointed out, salty closed horribly down the stretch. Stats are one thing but I go by what I see and I saw a lot of awful ABs. Too many swings and misses at balls in the dirt. Just doesn't put on good ABs but will find the proverbial acorn once in a while and hit a bomb. I understand that good catchers that can hit and defend are not often available but I'd love to upgrade that position. The Rangers struck gold with Napoli.

 

[iam76]

You make some good points. My beef with Theo is that the supply of young up and comers seems to have stalled after the wave represented by ells, pedroia and buchholz. Lately not much of interest on that front. Maybe that changes in a few, hope so. And the free agent front has been a disaster.

As doggy pointed out, salty closed horribly down the stretch. Stats are one thing but I go by what I see and I saw a lot of awful ABs. Too many swings and misses at balls in the dirt. Just doesn't put on good ABs but will find the proverbial acorn once in a while and hit a bomb. I understand that good catchers that can hit and defend are not often available but I'd love to upgrade that position. The Rangers struck gold with Napoli.

Who we had traded for but somehow it fell through

 

[bpo57]

What do you think of Levarnway?

Don't know much other than the brief look this year but looking at his stats it seems like he has a lot more upside than Salty. The key is how well can he play the position. No doubt he can hit.

 

[speedoo]

Is there a Yankee fan today that doesn't think Burnett gags it up tonight? The Yankee fan in my house has much the same expectation as you.

The CC thing will be interesting. Is he worth the money to get you to the postseason if he isn't very good in the post season? Is he fat and out of shape or gassed from overuse? ( I don't actually think he was overused). Nice to see ARod earning his money though.

I'm probably the most optimistic Yankee fan around so I'll take the bait and say I think Burnett gives a quality start tonight. If they can hit Porcello the series goes back to NY for game 5.

Why a good game for Burnett?

1. He's done it before.
2. Two of his last three starts were good.

 

[Deadrody]

Yeah, but if you disagree I feel better about it being so.

I heard a clip today of him saying that we are in a "post-moneyball era". That is spot on.

How so ? Just because he claims that is a fact and you agree, does not make it so.

Feel free get on with telling us how this is the "post-moneyball era" any time you like...