Franchise Fours

[The Viking]

Been talking to a lot Sox fans since this and all of them agree he has no right to be there. Again everyone is different but these are hardcores. Interesting to throw that argument out there because it's less obvious "4" than the Yanks. Your opinion, I get it, but I can name a lot ahead of him and some my busses mentioned: "Foxx, Clemens, Fisk, Boggs, Evans, especially Rice and even Pedroia" Put a glove on please! He can't be one of them.

Mau you and I are talking to different Sox fans. Most of the ones I talk to have Ortiz on it and don't take for granted what Ortiz has given us. He has literally carried the team in 04 and 13 offensively. His HR against Kevin Brown in game 7 after Damon was just thrown out was as big a HR as the Sox have had. His GS against Detroit in 13 was enormous as well. We don't go on to win those 2 WS with Boggs or Fisk or whoever in Ortiz's place.
His career OPS in the playoffs - when you are facing tougher pitching is something like 970. That's ridiculous.

I will say I love Evans and think he was incredibly underrated. I'll never forgive Dan Duquette for letting Kevin Mitchell for wearing his 24.

 

[mauconnfan]

Mau you and I are talking to different Sox fans. Most of the ones I talk to have Ortiz on it and don't take for granted what Ortiz has given us. He has literally carried the team in 04 and 13 offensively. His HR against Kevin Brown in game 7 after Damon was just thrown out was as big a HR as the Sox have had. His GS against Detroit in 13 was enormous as well. We don't go on to win those 2 WS with Boggs or Fisk or whoever in Ortiz's place.
His career OPS in the playoffs - when you are facing tougher pitching is something like 970. That's ridiculous.

I will say I love Evans and think he was incredibly underrated. I'll never forgive Dan Duquette for letting Kevin Mitchell for wearing his 24.

Fair enough.

I will say this - none of the aforementioned by me calls in sick for a Sunday game vs the Yankees prior to the all star game to get home early. NONE of them. So while some to me were "real Sox guys" like Rice and Evans your guy makes a mockery of what baseball should be. They all ran ground balls out too! But hey that's just me from the outside looking in. You have to live with who he is in Sox legend.

 

[60'sfan]

Mau you and I are talking to different Sox fans. Most of the ones I talk to have Ortiz on it and don't take for granted what Ortiz has given us. He has literally carried the team in 04 and 13 offensively. His HR against Kevin Brown in game 7 after Damon was just thrown out was as big a HR as the Sox have had. His GS against Detroit in 13 was enormous as well. We don't go on to win those 2 WS with Boggs or Fisk or whoever in Ortiz's place.
His career OPS in the playoffs - when you are facing tougher pitching is something like 970. That's ridiculous.

I will say I love Evans and think he was incredibly underrated. I'll never forgive Dan Duquette for letting Kevin Mitchell for wearing his 24.

The Sox have such rich history filled with great stars that I understand the argument that David Ortiz should not be on the list. He is definitely not in the top four of great Red Sox players. But when you consider who has had the biggest impact on the franchise, I don't think you can ignore him. I don't think the Red Sox win three World Series Championships without him. Some of the things that he has done and said, frustrate me but when he comes up in a crucial situation and delivers, all is forgiven.

 

[mauconnfan]

The Sox have such rich history filled with great stars that I understand the argument that David Ortiz should not be on the list. He is definitely not in the top four of great Red Sox players. But when you consider who has had the biggest impact on the franchise, I don't think you can ignore him. I don't think the Red Sox win three World Series Championships without him. Some of the things that he has done and said, frustrate me but when he comes up in a crucial situation and delivers, all is forgiven.

Okay I get it - you guys sell your soul to the devil. Pedey used his glove during those big wins too ya know, he wasn't watching from the bench. And he did use his glove all year long while compiling some nice numbers from the 2 slot in the order. Again, I get it he's your guy and you guys love him for whatever reason. No other fans respect him for what he does for the game as much as so many others as most see through the BS.

I would think not wanting to play first and calling in sick would at least help you understand the individual you deem "franchise".

 

[mauconnfan]

Looking at all of the teams it is obvious many of the players picked are still playing or recently impacted the franchise. Many of those would seem undeserving but who knows. Some that stuck out like a sore thumb:

Orioles - Eddie Murray not making it. But I must admit the 4 picked are fine in Palmer, Brooks R, Frank R and Cal - all deserving. Poor Eddie

White Sox - the 4 that made it, Baines, Konerko, Minoso and F Thomas vs the 4 who didn't - Aparicio, Appling, Collins and Fox. These lists could easily be switched.

Indians - LaJoie, Dolby and Boudreau not on it? Really - love Vizquel but c'mon.

A's - another tough one. I for one like Eck but Catfish and Rollie would have an argument. But a tough call .

Dodgers - Campanella and Garvey got the short end but tough group.

Cincy - Tony Perez has to be on that team sorry

SF Giants - Buster Posey over Marichal, Cepedea, Mathewson and Ott? Now this may be the biggest joke of all of them.

 

[superjohn]

Looking at all of the teams it is obvious many of the players picked are still playing or recently impacted the franchise. Many of those would seem undeserving but who knows. Some that stuck out like a sore thumb:

Orioles - Eddie Murray not making it. But I must admit the 4 picked are fine in Palmer, Brooks R, Frank R and Cal - all deserving. Poor Eddie

White Sox - the 4 that made it, Baines, Konerko, Minoso and F Thomas vs the 4 who didn't - Aparicio, Appling, Collins and Fox. These lists could easily be switched.

Indians - LaJoie, Dolby and Boudreau not on it? Really - love Vizquel but c'mon.

A's - another tough one. I for one like Eck but Catfish and Rollie would have an argument. But a tough call .

Dodgers - Campanella and Garvey got the short end but tough group.

Cincy - Tony Perez has to be on that team sorry

SF Giants - Buster Posey over Marichal, Cepedea, Mathewson and Ott? Now this may be the biggest joke of all of them.

I thought Ortiz over Clemens, Boggs, Rice, Evans was bad until I saw that Baines and Konerko made it over Aparicio then I saw that Buster Posey made it over Christy Mathewson and the others. That's kind of like making Derrick Roae the best Bulls player of all-time over Jordan.

 

[storrsroars]

Donnie was better period and your argument makes you look like an idiot! Just ask the question at what time was Wright the best player or even Top 10 for the matter in the NL? Maybe the best 3rd baseman for a couple years I will give you that. Then ask an easier question - out of his best years how many years was Don Mattingly the best payer in all of baseball? Maybe it's one, maybe it's 2 or 3 but no matter he WAS considered just that and proved it despiye the Mets fans nonsense here.

'Nuff said now stop!

I can assume you're not a trial lawyer as a good trial lawyer would never ask a question for which he doesn't already know the answer. Had you looked for the answer yourself, I'm guessing you wouldn't have asked as the answer does not fit comfortably into your Mattingly narrative.

Mattingly v. Wright, # of seasons for each milestone
Top 3 overall MLB: 1/1 (and I'll give you benefit of doubt in judging Mattingly #1 overall in 1986 instead of #3 as listed. Wright was #2 overall in 2007, behind only a PED user.
Top 10 overall MLB: 2/3
Top 20 overall MLB: 4/5
Top 3 overall AL/NL: 2/2
Top 10 overall AL/NL: 4/5 (which includes Wright's 2013 season where he didn't qualify for PAs yet was still 6th in NL in WAR at 6.1).
Top 20 overall AL/NL: 4/6
Top 3 Position MLB: 4/4
Top 10 Position MLB: 5/8

It's worth noting that outside of the four top 20 (really, top 15 for both) seasons, in the other six seasons in which he qualified, Mattingly never finished above 40th best in MLB or 20th best in AL, and was lower than top 10 at his position in 5 of those six years, a feat Wright has only accomplished once.

So if your entire argument is that Mattingly was arguably the best player in MLB in one year (1986), and that alone makes his career significantly better that Wright's, then nothing more needs to be said because you and the other Yankee lovers on this board have your heads so far up your kiester you can't be reached with objective reason.

Btw, I'm a Bucs fan.

 

[mauconnfan]

I can assume you're not a trial lawyer as a good trial lawyer would never ask a question for which he doesn't already know the answer. Had you looked for the answer yourself, I'm guessing you wouldn't have asked as the answer does not fit comfortably into your Mattingly narrative.

Mattingly v. Wright, # of seasons for each milestone
Top 3 overall MLB: 1/1 (and I'll give you benefit of doubt in judging Mattingly #1 overall in 1986 instead of #3 as listed. Wright was #2 overall in 2007, behind only a PED user.
Top 10 overall MLB: 2/3
Top 20 overall MLB: 4/5
Top 3 overall AL/NL: 2/2
Top 10 overall AL/NL: 4/5 (which includes Wright's 2013 season where he didn't qualify for PAs yet was still 6th in NL in WAR at 6.1).
Top 20 overall AL/NL: 4/6
Top 3 Position MLB: 4/4
Top 10 Position MLB: 5/8

It's worth noting that outside of the four top 20 (really, top 15 for both) seasons, in the other six seasons in which he qualified, Mattingly never finished above 40th best in MLB or 20th best in AL, and was lower than top 10 at his position in 5 of those six years, a feat Wright has only accomplished once.

So if your entire argument is that Mattingly was arguably the best player in MLB in one year (1986), and that alone makes his career significantly better that Wright's, then nothing more needs to be said because you and the other Yankee lovers on this board have your heads so far up your kiester you can't be reached with objective reason.

Btw, I'm a Bucs fan.

I admitted I may have exaggerated with "significantly" so relax on that stats geek. The fact you would even throw stats out again after disproving what WAR actually meant is laughable. Keep finding them and keep your Yankee hard on cooking. To even think WAR is correct when it said Wright was always better every year shows you where stats are. But keep finding them you may get some Mets fans to believe you but not too many others. An average 3rd baseman vs a really good 1st baseman with stats that are better offensively too? Not sure what you're digging up here stat guy? But feel free to keep making me laugh!

 

[superjohn]

Come on this is silly, ask anyone who watched both of their careers. Nobody thinks Wright was one of the few best players for a stretch of years, most people think Mattingly was.

 

[mets1090]

Come on this is silly, ask anyone who watched both of their careers. Nobody thinks Wright was one of the few best players for a stretch of years, most people think Mattingly was.

David Wright was a top 10 player (and I would argue top 5) for the span of 2005-2008. Anyone who thinks he wasn't top 10 is (1) having their view tainted by how poorly the team around him performed in September of 2007 and 2008 or (2) undervaluing how good his defense and speed were compared to the other people posting better power numbers than him.

 

[mauconnfan]

David Wright was a top 10 player (and I would argue top 5) for the span of 2005-2008. Anyone who thinks he wasn't top 10 is (1) having their view tainted by how poorly the team around him performed in September of 2007 and 2008 or (2) undervaluing how good his defense and speed were compared to the other people posting better power numbers than him.

Some may be tainted by their bias also. His speed is something I even forgot, very solid and potentially more impactful on better teams, no doubt. I would ask you to name your Top 10 and place him during his era to see where you believe he fits. You have an argument no doubt but I'm leaning a little more towards superjohn.

Both were good leaders in a tough then to do so and both were solid BA hitters when healthy. Once just was considered dangerous as hell every time he stepped to the plate for a few years and for a couple, the most dangerous. Doubt either used like they do know although who knows?

Again everyone has an opinion and a bias. 2 really good baseball players who played it the way it was supposed to be played. Not like other "Franchise Four" players LOL