Fox Sports’ Analyst Joel Klatt takes aim at the NCAA tournament | Page 3 | The Boneyard

Fox Sports’ Analyst Joel Klatt takes aim at the NCAA tournament

superjohn said:
We were nowhere near the bubble. We beat the #2 ranked team, #7, #8, #9, #12. Not a single bad loss, undefeated out of conference, and the Big East was considered the best conference ever that season.
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You’re both right. But, I do have a recollection of the talking heads saying that to ensure getting in, the huskies would need at least one BE tourney win.
 
Kolumbo said:
I like advocating for the devil because even in his explanation, he stresses that it is great entertainment but not the best way to determine a national champion.

2011
UConn ultimately won it all and was a deserving champion. But Butler vs VCU in the Final 4 is a complete bust.

3 UConn
4 Kentucky
8 Butler
11 VCU

These were the teams seeded higher than UConn. There were at least 40 teams seeded higher than VCU

Ohio State
Duke
Kansas
Pitt
North Carolina
SDSU
Notre Dame
Florida
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The teams in the FF won 4 games

The "better" teams lost

You have to WIN

Survive and advance
 
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the best or at least one of the top 3 or four teams almost always win anyway so I just don’t really see his point, no Cinderella is actually winning the tournament. You want to actually determine the best team, then don’t even have a tournament, just have have Ken Pomeroy walk out on a stage and hand the team with highest metric a trophy.
 
freescooter said:
2011 was a strange year. No GREAT teams. Just a lot of really good ones. That Butler team was actually very good. I don’t think they were viewed as your typical mid-major. They had been to the Sweet 16 in 2007 or 08, then the title game in 2010 and were back in 2011. In 2010 they missed a shot at the buzzer and lost to Duke by 2. Many writers expected them to beat UConn in 2011. A lot of people thought of them as the Gonzaga of the plains. It’s hard to get to the Championship game 2 years in a row.
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Disagree. We were great.
 
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Kolumbo said:
That's true, Butler was on a roll. I have recency bias. It is also annoying that I have 25 or 6 to 4 stuck in my head for some completely unrelated reason. apologies to all.
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Hopefully this version from Tanglewood. The solo from Terry Kath here is astonishing.

 
Very simply, breaking down Klatt's argument.

Winning on the field (or court) does not indicate which team is better.

That is what he is saying.
 
Palatine said:
Very simply, breaking down Klatt's argument.

Winning on the field (or court) does not indicate which team is better.

That is what he is saying.
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That’s true but that’s sports.

If you wanted the “best” team to win the title, you’d award it to the regular season champ in most cases. As the EPL does, and college football sorta used to.
 
Rocktheworld said:
After finishing the season 4-7, we were looking at a pretty bad seed, if not the bubble.
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Sometimes things are debatable. This really is not. #1 you forgot just how strong the Big East was that year. In the final AP poll before the BE tournament here are the rankings of BE teams: Pitt 3, ND 4, Syracuse 11, Louisville 14, St John’s 17, West Virginia 20, UConn 21, Georgetown 22, Cincinnati 25. Villanova was the top others receiving votes. Practically every game was a battle of ranked teams. The current #3 in the NBE would cry if they looked at a schedule like that! In the some things never change category, DePaul had 1 BE win and 4 total.

UConn was still ranked. No chance they were getting left out. Winning got them a higher seed for sure. But you want to talk battle tested, they were it. Plus they had wins over several other top 25 teams including Texas.
 
freescooter said:
I agree on that. Talk about made for tv events. For major conferences they are mostly irrelevant. Oh you have the odd Georgetown or NC State making a run mostly costing some place holder bubble team a slot. But mostly it doesn’t matter in any way. If you must do it, I would do a 4 team tournament. Everyone else have a nice Summer. For smaller leagues you watch far too many regular season champs get knocked off. Happened to Central Connecticut the last 2 years. Win the NEC Regular season but lost in the NEC tournament. Happened to Monmouth a few years ago when they had like 2 losses all season.
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The conferences can give bid to regular season champ like ivy. They would rather have a tournament for revenue and excitement. Most of these teams lose in round 1 particularly post nil. It works great as is
 
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Palatine said:
Very simply, breaking down Klatt's argument.

Winning on the field (or court) does not indicate which team is better.

That is what he is saying.
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Correct. I don't think anyone is arguing that an unranked VCU was the 4th best team in 2011

HuskyHawk said:
Hopefully this version from Tanglewood. The solo from Terry Kath here is astonishing.

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I am no musician but when I listen to this song, it doesn't sound like the music is overly complex. The song rocks with guitars, drums, horns. The guitar solo is great but otherwise I think this is probably something most musicians can play. I like to believe that sometimes Keep It Simple is the best way so even amateurs like me can hear all the different sounds. I could be way way off bass here, so to speak. Point being, it doesn't have to be incredibly complex and intricate to sound great.
 
Kolumbo said:
Correct. I don't think anyone is arguing that an unranked VCU was the 4th best team in 2011


I am no musician but when I listen to this song, it doesn't sound like the music is overly complex. The song rocks with guitars, drums, horns. The guitar solo is great but otherwise I think this is probably something most musicians can play. I like to believe that sometimes Keep It Simple is the best way so even amateurs like me can hear all the different sounds. I could be way way off bass here, so to speak. Point being, it doesn't have to be incredibly complex and intricate to sound great.
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There's probably not more than 5 guys who ever lived who could play that solo. Jimi Hendrix called Terry Kath "the best guitarist in the universe". The layering of the horns, guitars and percussion in these old Chicago songs is quite complex compared to modern music.
 
freescooter said:
Sometimes things are debatable. This really is not. #1 you forgot just how strong the Big East was that year. In the final AP poll before the BE tournament here are the rankings of BE teams: Pitt 3, ND 4, Syracuse 11, Louisville 14, St John’s 17, West Virginia 20, UConn 21, Georgetown 22, Cincinnati 25. Villanova was the top others receiving votes. Practically every game was a battle of ranked teams. The current #3 in the NBE would cry if they looked at a schedule like that! In the some things never change category, DePaul had 1 BE win and 4 total.

UConn was still ranked. No chance they were getting left out. Winning got them a higher seed for sure. But you want to talk battle tested, they were it. Plus they had wins over several other top 25 teams including Texas.
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A-P ranking or not, the sentiment across the media was that we were, similarly to 2014, LIMPING into the post-season, which would not have helped our seeding without making noise in the BET.
 
HuskyHawk said:
There's probably not more than 5 guys who ever lived who could play that solo. Jimi Hendrix called Terry Kath "the best guitarist in the universe". The layering of the horns, guitars and percussion in these old Chicago songs is quite complex compared to modern music.
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I highly doubt that but I'll take your word for it. I see kids today who can play Eddie Van Halen solos just like kids today are much more advanced in basketball compared to the old days. Maybe it's possible it was complex for the '60's but not so much today. The Universe has become much much larger since 1969

I was not aware of how Terry Kath died at the age of 31. Crazy
 
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Rocktheworld said:
After finishing the season 4-7, we were looking at a pretty bad seed, if not the bubble.
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How many seed lines do you think the 5 wins in 5 days moved them up?

In the last AP poll before the BET started they were ranked #21 (2010-11 Coaches Poll Men's College Basketball Rankings, Week 18 - ESPN). Assuming the AP Poll is a pretty good predictor of seeding (which has been proven to be true) that would be a 6 seed and they ended up getting a 3 seed. So how were they getting a pretty bad seed or on the bubble before the BET? Facts do not support your theory.
 
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Kolumbo said:
I highly doubt that but I'll take your word for it. I see kids today who can play Eddie Van Halen solos just like kids today are much more advanced in basketball compared to the old days. Maybe it's possible it was complex for the '60's but not so much today. The Universe has become much much larger since 1969

I was not aware of how Terry Kath died at the age of 31. Crazy
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Sure, there's people who can copy/try and replicate that solo by playing the chords but it's not theirs. They aren't going to play it with the same feel, energy, improvisation etc.

There's basketball players who try and copy Jordan's in game dunks and layup packages but it looks nothing like Jordan.
 
superjohn said:
Sure, there's people who can copy/try and replicate that solo by playing the chords but it's no theirs. They aren't going to play it with the same feel, energy, improvisation etc.

There's basketball players who try and copy Jordan's in game dunks and layup packages but it looks nothing like Jordan.
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That was my point really, you added the necessary context.
 
Terry Kath was a genius and one of the top 10 rock guitarists to date.
Listen to 1971 Chicago live at the Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts - amazing stuff
 
Fan1978 said:
The conferences can give bid to regular season champ like ivy. They would rather have a tournament for revenue and excitement. Most of these teams lose in round 1 particularly post nil. It works great as is
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Has the IVY not had a conference tournament for several years for the top four teams in the regular season that determines the IVY's automatic qualifier?
 
Fan1978 said:
The conferences can give bid to regular season champ like ivy. They would rather have a tournament for revenue and excitement. Most of these teams lose in round 1 particularly post nil. It works great as is
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Ivy has a tournament now too but limited to top 4. Leagues have the tournament for the money. If you offered them $100 more to play in an empty building, they would all play in empty buildings.
 
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HuskyHawk said:
There's probably not more than 5 guys who ever lived who could play that solo. Jimi Hendrix called Terry Kath "the best guitarist in the universe". The layering of the horns, guitars and percussion in these old Chicago songs is quite complex compared to modern music.
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Lamm + Kath was amazing man. What those two did for "25 or 6 to 4" (which some people have no idea what that means, so spoiler to those: 3:35am or 3:34am) was magical and next month we can mourn Kath.
 
As for March Madness I don't think there is one way to do this unanimously. The current format has:
1. Cases for cinderella runs like St. Peter's a few years ago
2. 68 teams can get in far in excess of Top 25 rankings. While less people watch the playin games once it starts, fans of each team find a way to watch.
3. Problem some mention which gets at the dig: You only have to play 6 teams which is not the best 6 because they also play each other an eliminate some leading to complaints that the champion didn't have to play this or that team.
4. Possible solution: Elite 8 and onward is double elimination. More games, better competition, more ad revenue.
 
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