Flagrants reviewed?

[Ukonnfan]

Are flangrant foul videos reviewed post-game for any further disciplinary action? #3 of LSU might well have ruined Gabby Williams entire athletic future with that move.

 

[UcMiami]

Are flangrant foul videos reviewed post-game for any further disciplinary action? #3 of LSU might well have ruined Gabby Williams entire athletic future with that move.

It is possible for the NCAA, conference, or school to review any incident for further action, but unlikely to occur except in fight situations. While it was really dangerous, especially given Gabby's medical history, I didn't think it was particularly malicious. Gabby's foot was up around the girl's midsection, not a typical situation, and she lifted and pushed it away - sort of a get this 'thing' out of here kind of move.

 

[reno tony]

I thought she should have been ejected. That wasn't pushing someone away, that was twisting and slamming to the floor.... IMO.

 

[HoopsFan21]

I thought she should have been ejected. That wasn't pushing someone away, that was twisting and slamming to the floor.... IMO.

She did it violently as well. It did not appear to me like she was simply trying to get untangled. I said at the time what does it take to get a flagrant 2? I guess you have to get Barncastle'd. And the refs weren't going to call any foul until Geno talked to the refs on his way off the floor.

 

[Nuyoika]

She did it violently as well. It did not appear to me like she was simply trying to get untangled. I said at the time what does it take to get a flagrant 2? I guess you have to get Barncastle'd. And the refs weren't going to call any foul until Geno talked to the refs on his way off the floor.

That was the most surprising part... if Geno hadn't said anything the refs weren't calling anything.

 

[ndmb]

I wouldn't have been upset if the kid got ejected, but I think that some of y'all are being a little harsh. What she did was not ok, but it's sometimes to play physically aggressive (bumping cutters, etc.) and then turn that switch off when you (inadvertantly) find yourself tangled up with the other player. And yes, this move could have possibly ended Gabby Williams' career, but historically, that's more likely to happen with an ACL tear on a play with no contact than a result of a player being too aggressive.

 

[ndmb]

While we're criticizing the refs, though, I thought they should have ended the play as soon as a player was lying down in the paint and clearly not getting up, rather than waiting for Collier to trip on her. Their inaction also made the situation more dangerous.

 

[Ron and Vida]

She did it violently as well. It did not appear to me like she was simply trying to get untangled. I said at the time what does it take to get a flagrant 2? I guess you have to get Barncastle'd. And the refs weren't going to call any foul until Geno talked to the refs on his way off the floor.

Exactly. A "fragrant " non call by the refs!

 

[HoopsFan21]

The more I watch the replay that Biff posted the more pissed I get. All the LSU player had to do was take a step back or move to the side. There wasn't even a real entanglement. Gabby's momentum was already carrying her forward, and all of her weight was on her left leg so she likely would have fallen anyway. There is simply no excuse or need for what the LSU player did. I haven't been this mad since Vails pulled Stef to the floor on the baseline with 7 left in the 2013 title game.

 

[TerpWomenFan]

I saw the game and saw the play. That was a flagrant 2 if I ever saw one. The LSU had her leg and tossed Gabby to the court WWE style. I'm glad she is doing OK. I heard she had two procedures on her knees.

 

[Icebear]

I wouldn't have been upset if the kid got ejected, but I think that some of y'all are being a little harsh. What she did was not ok, but it's sometimes to play physically aggressive (bumping cutters, etc.) and then turn that switch off when you (inadvertantly) find yourself tangled up with the other player. And yes, this move could have possibly ended Gabby Williams' career, but historically, that's more likely to happen with an ACL tear on a play with no contact than a result of a player being too aggressive.

It wasn't simple entanglement. All the player had to do was release the leg her arms were wrapped around but she was lifting it and tossed Gabby.

 

[Kaizen]

I don't understand why it ended a double technical fouls? I saw LSU also had a 2 FT. Can anyone explain to me?

 

[HoopsFan21]

I don't understand why it ended a double technical fouls? I saw LSU also had a 2 FT. Can anyone explain to me?

A foul was called on UConn though it wasn't a technical foul, but LSU had to shoot their FTs. I think the foul against UConn was the reason for the stoppage in the first place.

 

[Ukonnfan]

I think the regular foul was commited first, then the flagrant which would give the ball to uconn. It was one personal foul, then a flagrant. And if im not wrong, all regular play stops till the flagrant is dealt with.

 

[Padutch5]

I wouldn't have been upset if the kid got ejected, but I think that some of y'all are being a little harsh. What she did was not ok, but it's sometimes to play physically aggressive (bumping cutters, etc.) and then turn that switch off when you (inadvertantly) find yourself tangled up with the other player. And yes, this move could have possibly ended Gabby Williams' career, but historically, that's more likely to happen with an ACL tear on a play with no contact than a result of a player being too aggressive.

No trying to be a wise acre but that play happened right in front of me. That was a whole lot more than playing physically aggressive. If there is ever going to be a flagrant 2 in a women's game, that was it.

 

[huskeynut]

No question that was a flagrant 2. The LSU player clearly grabbed Gabby's leg, twisted it and threw her to the floor. She should have been ejected. As it was, she sat the rest of the game. Smart move on Fargus's part.

Stopping play and reviewing a potential flagrant foul has happened before. Caroline Doty had a flagrant 1 called on her in one of the championship games with Louisville. Walz called for a review of the play. I beleive that was also the game that a Lousiville post player got called for a flagrant foul on Big Mamma Stef.

Geno may have asked for a review when he was talking to the refs after the play.

 

[CocoHusky]

I don't understand why it ended a double technical fouls? I saw LSU also had a 2 FT. Can anyone explain to me?

It was not a double technical foul. UCONN was called for a regular foul on the play which was it's 5th of the Quarter resulting in two foul shots for LSU. The video review determined that the LSU player committed a Technical foul "Flagrant" on Gabby. Since UCONN was going to get possession as a result of the LSU's Technical there was not a live ball situation-no need to have players on the line while LSU shot. The foul shots are taken in the sequence that the fouls happened and none of 4 Foul shots were live-meaning that if a player missed the FT a rebound would not be contested.

 

[CL82]

I have some trouble about exactly what should be Flagrant 1 and what should be a two. It is kind of like the famous description of pornography - you know it when you see it.

Here is the best description of Flagrant Fouls that I found:

There are generally 2 types of Flagrant Fouls, and the severity of the Foul is determined by the Referees.​

• • A Type 1 Flagrant Foul occurs when a Foul is committed which involves either unnecessary or excessive contact.
    In the event of a Type 1 Flagrant Foul, the player who was fouled will receive 2 Free Throws, and their team will retain possession of the ball for an inbound, regardless of the outcome of the 2 Free Throws.
    
    The player who committed the Type 1 Flagrant Foul will receive a Personal Foul to their count, their team will receive a Team Foul, and if the same player commits another Flagrant Foul in the same game, that player will be removed from the game, and cannot return; They must be Substituted for another player.
• A Type 2 Flagrant Foul occurs when a foul is committed which involves BOTH unnecessary AND excessive contact.
  The Penalty for a Type 2 Flagrant Foul is the same as a Type 1 Flagrant Foul, except that the player who committed the foul is immediately removed from the game and cannot return; They must be substituted for another Player.

So I guess the analysis is:

a) was the lifting/grabbing her leg unnecessary?
b) was it excessive?

Answer one of the two questions yes and you've got a Flagrant 1.
Answer both of the two questions yes and you've got a Flagrant 2.

Under that test it sure looks like Flagrant 2 to me.

 

[Siestakeyfan]

Refs made a bit of a mess ! Bad enough to be punished

 

[cabbie191]

I don't know if this is a rule or not, and I'm suspecting not since it hasn't been mentioned yet, but I would support WCBB having a rule similar to soccer's yellow flag penalties - so that if a player gets a flagrant 1, that penalty follows her for the rest of the season, and if she picks up a second flagrant 1, she is ejected from the game.

And in addition, to borrow something from college football, if the ejection comes in the second half of the game (either 3rd or 4th quarter), the player must also sit out at least the first half of the next game.

After sitting out, then the player has a clean slate.

 

[Orangutan]

The relevant text of the NCAA's official rules is:

"A flagrant 1 personal foul is a personal foul that is deemed excessive in nature and/or unnecessary, but is not based solely on the severity of the act."
"A flagrant 2 personal foul is a personal foul that involves contact with an opponent that is not only excessive, but also severe or extreme while the ball is live."

The ball was live and the contact was certainly excessive. I guess the refs did not feel that it was "severe or extreme".

 

[j66kicker]

So I guess the analysis is:

a) was the lifting/grabbing her leg unnecessary?
b) was it excessive?

Answer one of the two questions yes and you've got a Flagrant 1.
Answer both of the two questions yes and you've got a Flagrant 2.

Under that test it sure looks like Flagrant 2 to me.

After looking several times in slo-mo I think the initial lifting/grabbing of Gabby's leg was not intentional. It looked to me like the LSU player was going up for the rebound, Gabby's leg got in front of her, and she inadvertently hooked the leg on the way up and continued up. The twisting and throwing was in frustration, but I don't think it was in any way a flagrant 2. She was frustrated that a leg in her face prevented her from competing for the rebound. Though not intentional, Gabby was complicit - I mean you're really not supposed to box out with a high leg....?

 

[CL82]

After looking several times in slo-mo I think the initial lifting/grabbing of Gabby's leg was not intentional. It looked to me like the LSU player was going up for the rebound, Gabby's leg got in front of her, and she inadvertently hooked the leg on the way up and continued up. The twisting and throwing was in frustration, but I don't think it was in any way a flagrant 2. She was frustrated that a leg in her face prevented her from competing for the rebound. Though not intentional, Gabby was complicit - I mean you're really not supposed to box out with a high leg....?

A couple of things:
1) The leg was about waist high, not in her face.
2) There's no exemption for "frustration."

I'd have no, or at least less, problem if she just shoved the leg away pushing it forward away from her. "Twisting and throwing" is a flagrant two. It was both unnecessary and excessive (or extreme/severe). If Gabby wasn't able to rotate as the LSU player twisted her leg and threw her to the ground, Gabby would have been out for the season with a tough recovery in front of her.

 

[HoopsFan21]

She threw Gabby to the floor like cheap trash. But I hope this doesn't set a precedent.

The precedent is when you're frustrated take a cheap shot at the team that has had the biggest target on its back for years and hope the ref is looking the other way.

 

[ricky]

The precedent is when you're frustrated take a cheap shot at the team that has had the biggest target on its back for years and hope the ref is looking the other way.

I pray that's not true but you may be right. There's still a lot of season leaving these telanted players very exposed to distaster.