Fairfield WBB: The Most Dangerous Mid-Major in the Nation

[Hey Adrien!]

Here's my piece on Fairfield WBB, who are poised for an even stronger season this year.

Fairfield WBB: The Most Dangerous Mid-Major in the Nation

stretchingthefloor.blogspot.com

 

[JellyBean]

Pretty awesome article. Fairfield definitely could make some noise this season. We shall see what develops.

 

[my2cents]

How do we the Stags on UConn's schedule?

 

[EricSD]

I wonder how accurate that is... It would be great if true, but there are a host of mid majors who have "historically" been really good. FCGU, the South Dakota teams, Green Bay, Gonzaga, Middle Tennessee, etc. I think even Princeton and Columbia are considered "Mid-Majors"...

 

[Skeets]

I wonder how accurate that is... It would be great if true, but there are a host of mid majors who have "historically" been really good. FCGU, the South Dakota teams, Green Bay, Gonzaga, Middle Tennessee, etc. I think even Princeton and Columbia are considered "Mid-Majors"...

Columbia and the rest of the Ivy league, yes, but I have a hard time thinking of Princeton as a "Mid-Major". They are good enough to be considered with the major programs. If not being in a power conference makes a school a "Mid-Major" then UConn is a "Mid-Major" (No, I'm not equating Princeton with UConn.)

 

[sun]

Last season Sacred Heart lost its NCAAT game to Presbyterian College by the score of 42 - 49.
During the regular season SH lost to Fairfield 61 - 66 in overtime,

After winning its opening NCAAT game, Presbyterian went on to lose to #1 South Carolina 39 - 91.
Fairfield lost to #14 Indiana 56 - 89 in March Madness.

 

[HopJim]

Last season Sacred Heart lost its NCAAT game to Presbyterian College by the score of 42 - 49.
During the regular season SH lost to Fairfield 61 - 66 in overtime,

After winning its opening NCAAT game, Presbyterian went on to lose to #1 South Carolina 39 - 91.
Fairfield lost to #14 Indiana 56 - 89 in March Madness.

"Dangerous" to who? Not trying to diminish anything any of the top mid-majors have accomplished, particularly the Princeton's of the basketball world who have to overcome academic requirements. In the same sense, view the headline as an interest generator and little more. I would expect that if the top 5 mid-majors played any of the top 20 ranked teams that the average score would be at least a 30-point differential.

 

[typhaon]

"Dangerous" to who? Not trying to diminish anything any of the top mid-majors have accomplished, particularly the Princeton's of the basketball world who have to overcome academic requirements. In the same sense, view the headline as an interest generator and little more. I would expect that if the top 5 mid-majors played any of the top 20 ranked teams that the average score would be at least a 30-point differential.

I don't think the author is suggesting Fairfield (or any other mid-major) is going to beat South Carolina or make the Final Four, but I don't think your perception of mid-majors vs. top 20 ranked teams is all that accurate.

There's a big difference between what the top 10-ish teams do vs. the next 20 or 30 teams that cycle through the rankings. Just pick a few teams and go through their schedules, you'll see plenty of mid-major (never mind top mid-majors) games where the margin of victory is less than 30.

 

[oldude]

Columbia and the rest of the Ivy league, yes, but I have a hard time thinking of Princeton as a "Mid-Major". They are good enough to be considered with the major programs. If not being in a power conference makes a school a "Mid-Major" then UConn is a "Mid-Major" (No, I'm not equating Princeton with UConn.)

I have never heard the Ivies referred to as “mid-majors”, and quite frankly, I’m not quite certain that the term isn’t more of an arbitrary designation, particularly when it comes to basketball.

As for the Ivies, they are unique as the only D1 basketball conference that does not give athletic scholarships to players, which makes the achievements of teams like Princeton and Columbia, and the student-athletes on those teams, all the more impressive.

 

[Skeets]

I have never heard the Ivies referred to as “mid-majors”, and quite frankly, I’m not quite certain that the term isn’t more of an arbitrary designation, particularly when it comes to basketball.

As for the Ivies, they are unique as the only D1 basketball conference that does not give athletic scholarships to players, which makes the achievements of teams like Princeton and Columbia, and the student-athletes on those teams, all the more impressive.

Yeah but, when I was a kid the high school star was Brian Taylor. He went to Princeton and I'm sure he got a "scholarship" or a heck of a lot of financial aid. It's just not called an athletic scholarship.

FYI, Taylor went on to play for the Nets in the old ABA with Dr. J. At one time he held the ABA/NBA record for steals. I doubt the record holds up today.

 

[oldude]

Yeah but, when I was a kid the high school star was Brian Taylor. He went to Princeton and I'm sure he got a "scholarship" or a heck of a lot of financial aid. It's just not called an athletic scholarship.

FYI, Taylor went on to play for the Nets in the old ABA with Dr. J. At one time he held the ABA/NBA record for steals. I doubt the record holds up today.

I played and coached in the Ivy League. I can assure you there is no such thing as an athletic scholarship, no matter how talented an athlete is.

All scholarships granted to anyone who attends an Ivy League school, whether they play sports or not, are entirely “need based.” Every applicant to an Ivy College that is looking for financial aid, submits an application to the Financial Aid clearinghouse in Princeton, NJ.

The clearinghouse evaluates a family’s income level and financial assets before putting together a financial aid package for the applicant. That package typically consists of a scholarship grant, loan amount, work-study amount and parental contribution.

There is absolutely no preference given to a star basketball player over a talented physics student. The good thing about the Ivies is that all 8 Ivy universities have enormous endowments. No matter the economic circumstances of any applicant, if they are accepted to an Ivy League school, that school will ensure they have the financial aid necessary to cover the full tuition, room & board, now around $80,000 per year at any of the Ivies.

 

[typhaon]

I have never heard the Ivies referred to as “mid-majors”, and quite frankly, I’m not quite certain that the term isn’t more of an arbitrary designation, particularly when it comes to basketball.

As for the Ivies, they are unique as the only D1 basketball conference that does not give athletic scholarships to players, which makes the achievements of teams like Princeton and Columbia, and the student-athletes on those teams, all the more impressive.

College Insider offers the following (and I believe typically accepted) definition: The Mid-Major Poll is made up of teams from the following conferences: America East, Atlantic Sun, Big Sky, Big South, Big West, Coastal Athletic, Conference USA, Horizon, Independent, Ivy, Metro Atlantic, Mid-American, Mid-Eastern, Missouri Valley, Northeast, Ohio Valley, Patriot, Southern, Southland, Southwestern, Summit, Sun Belt, West Coast, Western Athletic.

 

[oldude]

College Insider offers the following (and I believe typically accepted) definition: The Mid-Major Poll is made up of teams from the following conferences: America East, Atlantic Sun, Big Sky, Big South, Big West, Coastal Athletic, Conference USA, Horizon, Independent, Ivy, Metro Atlantic, Mid-American, Mid-Eastern, Missouri Valley, Northeast, Ohio Valley, Patriot, Southern, Southland, Southwestern, Summit, Sun Belt, West Coast, Western Athletic.

Yes, I’ve seen that poll. However, other pundits have classified mid-majors as any “non-P5” school. If that’s the case than both UConn MBB & WBB are mid-majors, which would be really disappointing news for all of the P5 schools they’ve beaten through the years.

 

[typhaon]

Yes, I’ve seen that poll. However, other pundits have classified mid-majors as any “non-P5” school. If that’s the case than both UConn MBB & WBB are mid-majors, which would be really disappointing news for all of the P5 schools they’ve beaten through the years.

I don't think anyone, anywhere classifies UCONN as a mid-major. A few non-P5 conferences (Big East, A-10) have to just settle for being considered generic high-majors.

 

[ERWUC65]

I don't think the author is suggesting Fairfield (or any other mid-major) is going to beat South Carolina or make the Final Four, but I don't think your perception of mid-majors vs. top 20 ranked teams is all that accurate.

There's a big difference between what the top 10-ish teams do vs. the next 20 or 30 teams that cycle through the rankings. Just pick a few teams and go through their schedules, you'll see plenty of mid-major (never mind top mid-majors) games where the margin of victory is less than 30.

To further your point, give me Gonzaga, FGCU, Middle Tennessee, Princeton, UNLV, or Columbia and lets play.

 

[Skeets]

I played and coached in the Ivy League. I can assure you there is no such thing as an athletic scholarship, no matter how talented an athlete is.

All scholarships granted to anyone who attends an Ivy League school, whether they play sports or not, are entirely “need based.” Every applicant to an Ivy College that is looking for financial aid, submits an application to the Financial Aid clearinghouse in Princeton, NJ.

The clearinghouse evaluates a family’s income level and financial assets before putting together a financial aid package for the applicant. That package typically consists of a scholarship grant, loan amount, work-study amount and parental contribution.

There is absolutely no preference given to a star basketball player over a talented physics student. The good thing about the Ivies is that all 8 Ivy universities have enormous endowments. No matter the economic circumstances of any applicant, if they are accepted to an Ivy League school, that school will ensure they have the financial aid necessary to cover the full tuition, room & board, now around $80,000 per year at any of the Ivies.

I'm not doubting that the Ivy League does not offer athletic scholarships. They have 10s of billions in endowments and the freedom to give $$ to athletes and non-athletes alike. So, saying they don't give athletic scholarships isn't telling the whole story. Just a tad misleading. I'd like to know how many recruited Ivy League athletes are paying the full boat, or compared to what the non-athletes pay. I'm going out a limb here, I bet the difference is huge.

 

[oldude]

I don't think anyone, anywhere classifies UCONN as a mid-major. A few non-P5 conferences (Big East, A-10) have to just settle for being considered generic high-majors.

Here again, what your comment suggests is that there is no hard and fast determination of what exactly a mid-major school is.

 

[oldude]

I'm not doubting that the Ivy League does not offer athletic scholarships. They have 10s of billions in endowments and the freedom to give $$ to athletes and non-athletes alike. So, saying they don't give athletic scholarships isn't telling the whole story. Just a tad misleading. I'd like to know how many recruited Ivy League athletes are paying the full boat, or compared to what the non-athletes pay. I'm going out a limb here, I bet the difference is huge.

I will say it again. All scholarship aid at Ivy League schools is based entirely on need. I personally know a talented football player from CA who attended Columbia University. His father was the CEO of a billion dollar Silicon Valley technology company. He did not receive a penny in financial aid. The financial clearinghouse in Princeton, NJ that dictates financial aid for all Ivy League schools is basically blind to whether they are evaluating an athlete’s application or a regular student. The clearinghouse requires a copy of the family’s recent tax return, including information such as number of dependents, mortgage payments, etc.

Nobody gets more than they need financially to afford any Ivy League school. At the same time, nobody gets any less than they need either. This factor in financial aid is one of the true strengths of Ivy League schools, unlike other colleges that may be limited in their ability to provide sufficient financial aid to a worthy applicant.

 

[typhaon]

Here again, what your comment suggests is that there is no hard and fast determination of what exactly a mid-major school is.

While I don't think "mid-major" is defined in the NCAA bylaws anywhere... basketball fans... coaches... players... have been using the term for decades with no significant issues.

I'd refer back to what I quoted from College Insider, if you need a reference for your future discussions.

 

[uconnfan68]

I will say it again. All scholarship aid at Ivy League schools is based entirely on need. I personally know a talented football player from CA who attended Columbia University. His father was the CEO of a billion dollar Silicon Valley technology company. He did not receive a penny in financial aid. The financial clearinghouse in Princeton, NJ that dictates financial aid for all Ivy League schools is basically blind to whether they are evaluating an athlete’s application or a regular student. The clearinghouse requires a copy of the family’s recent tax return, including information such as number of dependents, mortgage payments, etc.

Nobody gets more than they need financially to afford any Ivy League school. At the same time, nobody gets any less than they need either. This factor in financial aid is one of the true strengths of Ivy League schools, unlike other colleges that may be limited in their ability to provide sufficient financial aid to a worthy applicant.

It wouldn’t surprise me if the legacies paid full freight.

 

[cabbie191]

This is a link to the top 20 colleges based on the size of their endowment funds at the end of FY2021. Five of the Ivies are on the list.

Fast Facts: Endowments (73)

The NCES Fast Facts Tool provides quick answers to many education questions (National Center for Education Statistics). Get answers on Early Childhood Education, Elementary and Secondary Education and Higher Education here.

nces.ed.gov

#20, Cornell, has an endowment fund worth almost $9.5 billion. By comparison, UConn's endowment is reported at just over $600 million.

One of my nieces went to Grinnell College which had an endowment fund valued at $2.5 billion in FY 2023. It's a small school and with their return on investment they could provide free tuition to all their students. But that wasn't the path the school chose.

 

[stamfordhusky]

I will say it again. All scholarship aid at Ivy League schools is based entirely on need. I personally know a talented football player from CA who attended Columbia University. His father was the CEO of a billion dollar Silicon Valley technology company. He did not receive a penny in financial aid. The financial clearinghouse in Princeton, NJ that dictates financial aid for all Ivy League schools is basically blind to whether they are evaluating an athlete’s application or a regular student. The clearinghouse requires a copy of the family’s recent tax return, including information such as number of dependents, mortgage payments, etc.

Nobody gets more than they need financially to afford any Ivy League school. At the same time, nobody gets any less than they need either. This factor in financial aid is one of the true strengths of Ivy League schools, unlike other colleges that may be limited in their ability to provide sufficient financial aid to a worthy applicant.

That is largely correct. However, there is one type of exception. Ivy’s are allowed to match financial aid offers made to athletes by other Ivy’s. So if the Harvard formula gave an athlete $40,000 a year in financial aid (all need based, as you say), while Penn’s formula only gave $35,000 per year, Penn would be allowed to match the Harvard offer.

As you address, there is a major misconception held by many people that Ivy’s give any kind of aid other than need-based aid. That is not correct. There are no academic scholarships, no athletic scholarships, and no other types of scholarships.

 

[typhaon]

But what is their "need" formula? While I get the feeling there was a time when Ivy's were at a certain type of financial disadvantage in recruiting (basketball), relative to some other schools. I don't get the feeling that time is now.

 

[Sifaka]

This is a link to the top 20 colleges based on the size of their endowment funds at the end of FY2021. Five Six of the Ivies are on the list.

The other two are in the twenties.

Cornell University
Harvard University	1	41,894,380	53,165,753	26.9
Yale University	2	31,201,686	42,282,852	35.5
The University of Texas System Office	3	30,522,120	40,414,914	32.4
Stanford University	4	28,948,111	37,788,187	30.5
Princeton University	5	25,944,283	37,026,442	42.7
Massachusetts Institute of Technology	6	18,381,518	27,394,039	49.0
University of Pennsylvania	7	14,877,363	20,523,546	38.0
University of Notre Dame	8	12,319,422	18,385,354	49.2
Texas A & M University-College Station	9	12,734,068	16,895,504	32.7
University of Michigan-Ann Arbor	10	12,144,714	16,795,776	38.3
University of California-System Administration Central Office	11	12,267,010	16,463,910	34.2
Columbia University in the City of New York	12	11,257,021	14,349,970	27.5
Washington University in St Louis	13	8,489,294	13,668,081	61.0
Duke University	14	8,474,071	12,692,472	49.8
Emory University	15	9,169,028	12,218,693	33.3
Northwestern University	16	8,484,706	11,361,182	33.9
Vanderbilt University	17	6,917,371	10,928,512	58.0
University of Virginia-Main Campus	18	7,146,476	10,366,578	45.1
University of Chicago	19	7,199,521	9,594,956	33.3

Cornell University. 20



Whenever I see statements—always without evidence—implying that one or more of the Ivies somehow compensate athletes to attend, I recall my own recruitment. I was of interest to the Ivy League school because of my academic record, my musical achievements, and my abilities as a long distance runner.
FWIW, I lettered in Cross Country and Track & Field.

What did Dartmouth offer me in return? A fine education. My parents, who grew up during the depression, insisted on not applying for financial aid, as they feared it might jeopardize my application. We weren't poor enough for financial aid, nor wealthy. It took a major sacrifice to afford the tuition, that was $1,800 annually my senior year.

NIL, lawsuits about “employee” status for athletes, the proposed NCAA antitrust settlement (a filthy proposition) and other coming changes may undo the status quo, but for now Oldude's assertions are completely correct.

 

[cabbie191]

The other two are in the twenties.

Cornell University
Harvard University	1	41,894,380	53,165,753	26.9
Yale University	2	31,201,686	42,282,852	35.5
The University of Texas System Office	3	30,522,120	40,414,914	32.4
Stanford University	4	28,948,111	37,788,187	30.5
Princeton University	5	25,944,283	37,026,442	42.7
Massachusetts Institute of Technology	6	18,381,518	27,394,039	49.0
University of Pennsylvania	7	14,877,363	20,523,546	38.0
University of Notre Dame	8	12,319,422	18,385,354	49.2
Texas A & M University-College Station	9	12,734,068	16,895,504	32.7
University of Michigan-Ann Arbor	10	12,144,714	16,795,776	38.3
University of California-System Administration Central Office	11	12,267,010	16,463,910	34.2
Columbia University in the City of New York	12	11,257,021	14,349,970	27.5
Washington University in St Louis	13	8,489,294	13,668,081	61.0
Duke University	14	8,474,071	12,692,472	49.8
Emory University	15	9,169,028	12,218,693	33.3
Northwestern University	16	8,484,706	11,361,182	33.9
Vanderbilt University	17	6,917,371	10,928,512	58.0
University of Virginia-Main Campus	18	7,146,476	10,366,578	45.1
University of Chicago	19	7,199,521	9,594,956	33.3

Cornell University. 20



Whenever I see statements—always without evidence—implying that one or more of the Ivies somehow compensate athletes to attend, I recall my own recruitment. I was of interest to the Ivy League school because of my academic record, my musical achievements, and my abilities as a long distance runner.
FWIW, I lettered in Cross Country and Track & Field.

What did Dartmouth offer me in return? A fine education. My parents, who grew up during the depression, insisted on not applying for financial aid, as they feared it might jeopardize my application. We weren't poor enough for financial aid, nor wealthy. It took a major sacrifice to afford the tuition, that was $1,800 annually my senior year.

NIL, lawsuits about “employee” status for athletes, the proposed NCAA antitrust settlement (a filthy proposition) and other coming changes may undo the status quo, but for now Oldude's assertions are completely correct.

Both my brothers went to Brown. One of them ran both track and cross country. I don’t believe either of them had any financial assistance.

 

[stamfordhusky]

But what is their "need" formula? While I get the feeling there was a time when Ivy's were at a certain type of financial disadvantage in recruiting (basketball), relative to some other schools. I don't get the feeling that time is now.

It depends on your definition of "need" and whether parents in the middle class - who can afford the freight but might not want to pay a hefty sum - are willing to pay the costs. Here are two examples estimating what it would cost a student-athlete's family for one year at Harvard, calculated for family incomes ranging from $100,000 to $300,000, using the Harvard website's cost calculator. The first example assumes the family has very few assets other than perhaps a house (which doesn't count in the formula). The second assumes a reasonable amount of assets available but not a very large amount. Both assume there is only one child in college.

Gross Income / Fin. Aid / Net Cost of Attendance

EXAMPLE 1:
100.000 / 79k (aid) / $8k (cost of attendance)
150,000 / 66k / 21k
200,000 / 39k / 48k
250,000 / 20k / 67k
300,000 / 0k / 87k

EXAMPLE 2:
100,000 / 49k (aid) / $38k (cost)
150,000 / 36k / 51k
200,000 / 9k / 78k
250,000 / 0k / 87k

So, for example, a family with a reasonable amount of savings and a combined income of $150,000 would be expected to pay $51,000 per year. That would decline if there were other kids in college. Families who were foolish enough to save a lot of money - and not put it into a huge house - would be expected to pay more.

 

[cabbie191]

I went to private college (Clark University, Worcester, MA) from 1969 - 1974, taking one year off to work in order to afford my last two years. I think tuition and expenses in those days was in the neighborhood of $3,000 but that might be a bit on the high side.

These were the days of Vietnam War protests and there were quite a few disruptions on Clark's campus. This led to a chat with my uncle who was a Spanish professor at Brown University. He recalled that when he was an undergraduate student at Amherst College, there were students protests that temporarily shut down the campus. When I asked what it was about, he said students were protesting a proposed $25 increase in tuition.

My jaw dropped and he could see the incredulousness all over my face. He smiled and then said - "You have to understand that the existing tuition was $250. What the school was proposing was a 10% increase. It was a significant jump for us even though it seems a pittance by today's costs."

Perspective - a life lesson learned.

 

[Skeets]

I went to private college (Clark University, Worcester, MA) from 1969 - 1974, taking one year off to work in order to afford my last two years. I think tuition and expenses in those days was in the neighborhood of $3,000 but that might be a bit on the high side.

These were the days of Vietnam War protests and there were quite a few disruptions on Clark's campus. This led to a chat with my uncle who was a Spanish professor at Brown University. He recalled that when he was an undergraduate student at Amherst College, there were students protests that temporarily shut down the campus. When I asked what it was about, he said students were protesting a proposed $25 increase in tuition.

My jaw dropped and he could see the incredulousness all over my face. He smiled and then said - "You have to understand that the existing tuition was $250. What the school was proposing was a 10% increase. It was a significant jump for us even though it seems a pittance by today's costs."

Perspective - a life lesson learned.

Amazing. One semester my tuition was $90. My books were more than that. And this was a regular 4 year college, not a community college. It was cheap, even back then. Compare that with UConn today.

 

[Cornell Lt]

I played and coached in the Ivy League. I can assure you there is no such thing as an athletic scholarship, no matter how talented an athlete is.

All scholarships granted to anyone who attends an Ivy League school, whether they play sports or not, are entirely “need based.” Every applicant to an Ivy College that is looking for financial aid, submits an application to the Financial Aid clearinghouse in Princeton, NJ.

The clearinghouse evaluates a family’s income level and financial assets before putting together a financial aid package for the applicant. That package typically consists of a scholarship grant, loan amount, work-study amount and parental contribution.

There is absolutely no preference given to a star basketball player over a talented physics student. The good thing about the Ivies is that all 8 Ivy universities have enormous endowments. No matter the economic circumstances of any applicant, if they are accepted to an Ivy League school, that school will ensure they have the financial aid necessary to cover the full tuition, room & board, now around $80,000 per year at any of the Ivies.

Your statement is pretty accurate. however it should be noted that athletic teams are granted a certain number of admissions that would take into consideration various aspects, to include all the things you mention along with a coaches request for admittance.

 

[oldude]

Your statement is pretty accurate. however it should be noted that athletic teams are granted a certain number of admissions that would take into consideration various aspects, to include all the things you mention along with a coaches request for admittance.

Correct. However, there are minimum academic qualifications for any admission to an Ivy League school that are considerably demanding. The last thing the Ivies want is to accept students who cannot meet their academic requirements. This is doubly true for athletes who commit countless hours of practice, training and competition, in addition to dealing with the academic rigors of an Ivy League curriculum.