Endorsement Deals Shaping the NCAA Tournament | The Boneyard

Endorsement Deals Shaping the NCAA Tournament

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I noticed this article and it got me thinking of how the money involved may be adding newcomers to the top teams and forcing top teams to change the way they entice recruits. Every South Carolina player receives $25,000 for instance in addition to whatever individual deals can be generated. Wealthy alumni make huge contributions to Miami, Syracuse and other schools to "hire" players. I know Paige and Azzi have wonderful deals but will UConn have to do more than make tee shirts for sale to "stay in the game"? I realize there are a lot of perspectives and I don't know which is right but I think it's worthy of discussion
 
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Can't read the NY Times article.

Billionaire Miami attorney John Ruiz has paid out upwards of $10 million this season to Univ of Miami Men's and Women's basketball teams. He has enticed several players to transfer to Miami..

At the same time the state of Florida has improved their NIL laws to better favor their athletes over other competitive NIL states. Florida's New NIL Law Removes Potential Restrictions for Student-Athletes | RumbergerKirk.

Going to be hard to compete with this.
 

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Can't read the NY Times article.

We got an all access subscription to The NY Times. Yes, a bit pricey but along with other things, it comes with access to The Athletic which has terrific coverage of all sports, including WCBB.
 
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Eventually all the good players will either go to the SEC or the B1G because that’s where all the money will be. They will be able to offer the biggest NIL deals, have the best facilities, and pay the coaches the most $$$.

It’s all about the $$$$$$$$.
 

npignatjr

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LSU WCBB 9 new players. K State MCBB 10 transfers out of 12 on the team. Bad look both for the game.
I understand some kids and schools don't mesh but there should be some kind of limit
 

sun

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I'll admit that NIL & the transfer portal takes some getting used to.
However overall, both represent an expansion of civil rights for athletes, especially those that are American citizens.
Since athletic success can build celebrity status, then athletes should be able to be rewarded & build future fortune.
Yet some still ask why?
The answers are simple.
Because the athletes are risking their health & well being to play a sport, previously only for a free education while generating large profits for many institutions & businesses.
Also because the American system represents freedom, which includes the freedom to experiment to create the best teams & the best ways to train to succeed through excellence & by winning.
To develop the art & sciences of sports.

The Olympics used to be only be for amateurs & those in the military who were subsidized to train in their sport full time.
And that also provided an advantage to communist countries who paid athletes to train as a full time job.
But that's no longer the case as more sports & sporting events have become a global business enterprise.
And athletes are able to obtain citizenship in other countries that will further allow them to compete just like how the transfer portal operates.
Countries also pay Olympic athletes for winning medals, with some paying huge amounts.
This way more athletes are able to participate & more countries are able to win medals.
It's all in harmony with the spirit of competition in a world with an ever growing population & with many more diverse businesses.

If the time comes that the Congress or the NCAA wants to start regulating how NIL's or the transfer portal operates then they can always try to do that.
But at this point the trend has been to expand rights & not restrict them if at all possible to promote freedom of association, and to help provide for the future health & welfare of the largest number of athletes possible.
More athletes can get compensated for taking health risks & are able to build up their celebrity status to help their future careers.
They can finally get justly rewarded for their talent & for their effort which is work.
Then no single institution or athlete has a significantly greater advantage over another.
It helps to level the playing field for the benefit of society & the sport that they play by allowing more schools the chance to compete for signing the top athletes.
Providing greater economic opportunity for individuals is the American way of upholding freedom.
 
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sun

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A 2021 article indicates that some state laws limit NIL to students enrolled in higher education.
California does not & New York was considering following CA.
We've already seen that Nike has signed some high school athletes such as JuJu Watkins of CA.

As of now, the California Interscholastic Federation (CIF) is the only NFHS member association with a bylaw that allows its participants to make money from their NILs. The policy, which was put in place several years ago to accommodate the state’s notably large number of children who are associated with the television and film industries, still prohibits the use of an athlete’s school name, logo or team uniform in commercial activity.

Students may become media influencers but they can't use their high school name, logo or uniform in commercial activity.
Civil rights get expanded one step at a time, one case at a time, usually incrementally.
The NCAA is different from the state high school athletic associations which are more committed to amateurism.
I don't plan on researching further into it than the article below, but you can if you want more answers about how each state regulates the school related NIL activity of their juvenile celebrity athletes.

 
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It’s a double edged sword, this freedom stuff. For decades schools profited inappropriately from student likenesses while also preventing them from doing so. Finally that’s gone. But the schools also have an interest in their own brand logos and images, and this can be protected from student use in NIL work. A balance has already been struck, but I expect to hear of more legal developments under this heading.
 
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It’s a double edged sword, this freedom stuff. For decades schools profited inappropriately from student likenesses while also preventing them from doing so. Finally that’s gone. But the schools also have an interest in their own brand logos and images, and this can be protected from student use in NIL work. A balance has already been struck, but I expect to hear of more legal developments under this heading.
Absolutely! In no other industry can one imagine the employees would receive zero wages. Think about the retail coffee industry is an example. What would we say if the employees receive zero wages and could not move to a competing firm? That's completely unimaginable. And let's be clear eyed about this big time Athletics at the elite level is not about education it's a business. And until recently it's been a business where all the power has been skewed through the NCAA to the schools.

This will definitely change the landscape of collegiate sports. For those of us who clearly understand this is business the question becomes what impact is this have on the vast majority of athletes who do not play at elite programs or conferences. That's where most of the athletes are and most of the games played.

I would suspect minimal impact for example in the Big Sky conference and the NAU Lumberjacks. Business will continue as it has in the past. NIL will have an insignificant impact and I'm using the Big Sky and NAU as exemplars for all the none elite conferences and athletes. On the other hand the transfer portal will afford these students the same rights as any other student, that is to transfer to another institution or business and offer their labor.

The fact that there is controversy over these issues I think reflects a social construct that the NCAA and elite programs have successfully engaged in through various forms of marketing over the decades. So while the NCAA is generally inept at anticipating authentic legal and business challenges from players they've been successful in a marketing scheme that is convinced most fans that 'the game" is more important than the innate and inherent rights of the participants who make it all happen.
 

CL82

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For decades schools profited inappropriately from student likenesses while also preventing them from doing so
How so? Can you give me any examples of pre-NIL marketing of players images?
 
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How so? Can you give me any examples of pre-NIL marketing of players images?
I don't need to give just one. How many brochures, websites, calendars, etc, did every school feel free to put player images on? but beyond that, the televising of games is a use of their images for profit by the NCAA and its member schools.
 

CL82

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I don't need to give just one. How many brochures, websites, calendars, etc, did every school feel free to put player images on? but beyond that, the televising of games is a use of their images for profit by the NCAA and its member schools.
So the act televising games constitutes the use of a players image for profit? Isn’t it a reasonable argument that the act of accepting a scholarship implicitly is an acceptance that games will be broadcast, that tickets will be promoted. I note that the state. NIL legislation does not in any way change the fact that games are still televised and tickets are promoted. It’s just purports to create new availability for players to market there image.
 
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So the act televising games constitutes the use of a players image for profit? Isn’t it a reasonable argument that the act of accepting a scholarship implicitly is an acceptance that games will be broadcast, that tickets will be promoted. I note that the state. NIL legislation does not in any way change the fact that games are still televised and tickets are promoted. It’s just purports to create new availability for players to market there image.
You didn't ask me for the text of a law. You only asked for examples of schools profiting off student images. I gave you a few. Make of them what you will. For me, I think the televising of games is clearly a case of conversion (that's a legal term) but one that students tacitly agree to in the act of seeking a scholarship. But this is not the same as using their images to advertise the school in other ways without compensation, and certainly grants schools or the NCAA no authority to infringe on students' rights to profit off their own images.
 

CL82

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You didn't ask me for the text of a law. You only asked for examples of schools profiting off student images. I gave you a few. Make of them what you will. For me, I think the televising of games is clearly a case of conversion (that's a legal term) but one that students tacitly agree to in the act of seeking a scholarship. But this is not the same as using their images to advertise the school in other ways without compensation, and certainly grants schools or the NCAA no authority to infringe on students' rights to profit off their own images.
No, what I asked you was whether you could give me an examples of schools profiting off of a player image pre-NIL. Your example was marketing tickets, and televising games. Those things seem part and parcel of being a scholarship athlete, right? In fact, they continue to exist in the NIL era. Your argument that television broadcast are actually a tort which injures student athletes, is, well, let’s call it a unique take.

But now you’re asserting, that schools are somehow using student athletes images to advertise the school “in other ways.” What exactly are these “other ways” that you are imagining?

Regarding your assertion, that schools or the NCAA have somehow impinged upon individuals rights to utilize their own image, you would have to clarify what you mean by that assertion because it feels like you are conflating a few things here. Let me give you a real world example a police officer could get a side job modeling. That would be profiting off their image, right? But most, if not all, police departments prohibit an individual from wearing their uniform for personal commercial ventures. Do you understand the distinction?
 
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No, what I asked you was whether you could give me an examples of schools profiting off of a player image pre-NIL. Your example was marketing tickets, and televising games. Those things seem part and parcel of being a scholarship athlete, right? In fact, they continue to exist in the NIL era. Your argument that television broadcast are actually a tort which injures student athletes, is, well, let’s call it a unique take.

But now you’re asserting, that schools are somehow using student athletes images to advertise the school “in other ways.” What exactly are these “other ways” that you are imagining?

Regarding your assertion, that schools or the NCAA have somehow impinged upon individuals rights to utilize their own image, you would have to clarify what you mean by that assertion because it feels like you are conflating a few things here. Let me give you a real world example a police officer could get a side job modeling. That would be profiting off their image, right? But most, if not all, police departments prohibit an individual from wearing their uniform for personal commercial ventures. Do you understand the distinction?
You make some good points, and my thinking on this is evolving, so thanks for understanding.

I didn't mean to say the schools violated student property rights by televising games -- I said it was probably tacitly agreed to in accepting the scholarship. Also, I didn't limit it to marketing tickets, but also thought of the general use of images to market the school to potential students. Still, yours wasn't an unfair reading. I called it conversion because it looked to me like an asset of the students was turned to a profit by the schools. When I was a student in Annapolis, I remember a calendar used for marketing purposes by the Academy featuring a photo of Napoleon McCallum in Revolutionary War era garb and a caption that read "I have not yet begun to run." It was tongue in cheek and very popular. He received no compensation for it. Should he have?

As for brochures and other advertisements for schools, I've seen this quite a bit over the years, schools using pictures of students to develop their brand. For many years, this was done without asking students for permission or offering compensation. Students were often subtly pressured to allow it in the name of school spirit. More recently, schools (at least the one where I work and others where colleagues work) have become more sensitive to this and either seek written releases and/or offer some compensation. Universities have been assiduous over the years in using student-athlete images in this same way -- on brochures and calendars, and even web pages -- but only recognized the need for permissions in the last few decades.

I like the example of the police officer who models. What about a police officer who models out of uniform? How would we feel about a prohibition on this sort of side job? The case of athletes profiting off NIL is more like this case. Perhaps an argument could be made that modeling is detrimental to the department's image, or interferes with this officer (or other officers) being able to perform his or her duties. I'm not sure how persuasive that argument would be.

In the case of an athlete, what sort of argument could schools have made before NIL for refusing to allow them to profit from their own image? Scholarships did not come with codicils in which students agree not to seek part time jobs delivering pizzas, for example. Nor did they sign away their right to property in their own image. Typically a foggy notion of amateurism was invoked to justify distinguishing athletes from other students to suggest they couldn't make any money on the side.
 

CL82

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You make some good points, and my thinking on this is evolving, so thanks for understanding.

I didn't mean to say the schools violated student property rights by televising games -- I said it was probably tacitly agreed to in accepting the scholarship. Also, I didn't limit it to marketing tickets, but also thought of the general use of images to market the school to potential students. Still, yours wasn't an unfair reading. I called it conversion because it looked to me like an asset of the students was turned to a profit by the schools. When I was a student in Annapolis, I remember a calendar used for marketing purposes by the Academy featuring a photo of Napoleon McCallum in Revolutionary War era garb and a caption that read "I have not yet begun to run." It was tongue in cheek and very popular. He received no compensation for it. Should he have?

As for brochures and other advertisements for schools, I've seen this quite a bit over the years, schools using pictures of students to develop their brand. For many years, this was done without asking students for permission or offering compensation. Students were often subtly pressured to allow it in the name of school spirit. More recently, schools (at least the one where I work and others where colleagues work) have become more sensitive to this and either seek written releases and/or offer some compensation. Universities have been assiduous over the years in using student-athlete images in this same way -- on brochures and calendars, and even web pages -- but only recognized the need for permissions in the last few decades.

I like the example of the police officer who models. What about a police officer who models out of uniform? How would we feel about a prohibition on this sort of side job? The case of athletes profiting off NIL is more like this case. Perhaps an argument could be made that modeling is detrimental to the department's image, or interferes with this officer (or other officers) being able to perform his or her duties. I'm not sure how persuasive that argument would be.

In the case of an athlete, what sort of argument could schools have made before NIL for refusing to allow them to profit from their own image? Scholarships did not come with codicils in which students agree not to seek part time jobs delivering pizzas, for example. Nor did they sign away their right to property in their own image. Typically a foggy notion of amateurism was invoked to justify distinguishing athletes from other students to suggest they couldn't make any money on the side.
For some reason, the quote function isn’t working, otherwise I would quote and discuss. I’ll paraphrase instead, and I ask that you forgive any inaccuracies. It isn’t deliberate.

Some of the things you wrote about seem speculative. For example, you talk about schools supposedly pressuring players to allow the use of their image for undefined marketing. In my experience, being the picture that is being used to promote the team is a complement, or a recognition, rather than a seizure of property right. It’s not as if the student is forced to grant an exclusive license when doing so. It seems to be an underlying assumption in your analysis that the participation in a televised broadcast or in an ad for tickets, somehow is a forfeiture of right by the student. I think that is a strained interpretation.

Keep the police officer analogy in mind because I think it’s useful. Prior to the current NIL structure is student athlete was free to profit off their image, so long as that was not derivative of their collegiate, athletic activity. So, if a student wanted to model, like the police officer, they would be able to. But if they wanted to model in their school uniform, that would be prohibited. Likewise, if their modeling was contingent upon or derivative of their athletic status that was considered an impermissible benefit. If you think about it, there is some logic to this approach and it is very analogous to the police officer situation. The individual doesn’t forfeit their rights to profit off their image, but they are not allowed to leverage their affiliation, in one case with the police department, in the other case with the college sports program. That is not a taking from the student. Instead, it is a prohibition on their leveraging their amateur athletic status.

When you ask “what is the legal authority for that?”, I guess the answer is the constitutional right to free association. Anytime you join an organization, the organization has the ability to place constraints on your participation. The NCAA never said you may never profit from your image, instead they said, if you choose to try to profit from your image in a way that is derivative of your college athlete status you won’t be allowed to participate in our organization. That’s not an unreasonable, and certainly not an unlawful, position.

Is that helpful?
 
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So the act televising games constitutes the use of a players image for profit? Isn’t it a reasonable argument that the act of accepting a scholarship implicitly is an acceptance that games will be broadcast, that tickets will be promoted. I note that the state. NIL legislation does not in any way change the fact that games are still televised and tickets are promoted. It’s just purports to create new availability for players to market there image.

There are actually very few college sports that charge admission or are even telecast so I would guess that generating revenue from players is the exception among all college scholarship recipients.

If you watch these telecast games you also see that they are copywritten so there is value implicit in them. Some of that value is provided by the competitors.
 

CL82

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There are actually very few college sports that charge admission or are even telecast so I would guess that generating revenue from players is the exception among all college scholarship recipients.

If you watch these telecast games you also see that they are copywritten so there is value implicit in them. Some of that value is provided by the competitors.
Absolutely, but the fact that they’ll be competing is implicit and excepting a scholarship, right?
 
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For some reason, the quote function isn’t working, otherwise I would quote and discuss. I’ll paraphrase instead, and I ask that you forgive any inaccuracies. It isn’t deliberate.

Some of the things you wrote about seem speculative. For example, you talk about schools supposedly pressuring players to allow the use of their image for undefined marketing. In my experience, being the picture that is being used to promote the team is a complement, or a recognition, rather than a seizure of property right. It’s not as if the student is forced to grant an exclusive license when doing so. It seems to be an underlying assumption in your analysis that the participation in a televised broadcast or in an ad for tickets, somehow is a forfeiture of right by the student. I think that is a strained interpretation.

Keep the police officer analogy in mind because I think it’s useful. Prior to the current NIL structure is student athlete was free to profit off their image, so long as that was not derivative of their collegiate, athletic activity. So, if a student wanted to model, like the police officer, they would be able to. But if they wanted to model in their school uniform, that would be prohibited. Likewise, if their modeling was contingent upon or derivative of their athletic status that was considered an impermissible benefit. If you think about it, there is some logic to this approach and it is very analogous to the police officer situation. The individual doesn’t forfeit their rights to profit off their image, but they are not allowed to leverage their affiliation, in one case with the police department, in the other case with the college sports program. That is not a taking from the student. Instead, it is a prohibition on their leveraging their amateur athletic status.

When you ask “what is the legal authority for that?”, I guess the answer is the constitutional right to free association. Anytime you join an organization, the organization has the ability to place constraints on your participation. The NCAA never said you may never profit from your image, instead they said, if you choose to try to profit from your image in a way that is derivative of your college athlete status you won’t be allowed to participate in our organization. That’s not an unreasonable, and certainly not an unlawful, position.

Is that helpful?
Thanks for this. It may be the clearest explanation of the issues I've heard. Just a clarification to offer on a couple of points:

-- in the second paragraph, you're right that my answer was mostly speculative, but the question of whether students (any students) feel pressure to go along with photo-ops for admissions brochures, etc. is not. I've spoken to students of mine about this and asked them how they agreed to it, and they've said just this, that "school spirit" was invoked. Now I don't mean they were threatened, or that it was mean spirited. More like cajoled. This seems separate to me from the question whether they gave up some property right. They clearly did so willingly -- I've never said otherwise -- so no laws were broken, even though releases were not signed. I might say that my answer was atmospheric rather than speculative. Also, for most students, photographic images of them don't have much value based on who they are, so the property at issue is trivial, technical at best.

-- the third paragraph is the really interesting one for me. Leveraging their affiliation with an institution seems like a brand or property right consideration that runs in the opposite direction -- it's the school's property, not the student's that is being converted there. In fact this possibility is where this entire thread took the turn to where we are now. I said way up above that there are probably limits (iirc) on the use of school logos and other school identifiable imagery in any NIL work. You put it as "leveraging their amateur athletic status," and this is the one point where I don't follow you. Bear in mind that as a member of the academic faculty of a college, I am dubious of the very existence of scholarship sports at any educational institution. I also love to watch them, which means I am a contradictory fellow. So I tend to pose the question like this: is any part of their "amateur athletic status" somehow not their property? They get their opportunity and some of their training from employees of the school. The school has invested in them. But the school only has an athletic program that is in any way marketable due to their talents and efforts. Is it entirely clear who is leveraging whom in this case? If my question indicates a valid dilemma, I wonder how it can be solved. I suspect the term "amateur" isn't really relevant here, since it is not indicative of any property at issue between the student-athlete and the school. If I'm right, then we're left with their athleticism, which is in some sense a shared property as I just suggested. Are we looking for a Solomon to "divide the baby" or should we try to decide whose contribution to the shared property (the actual games played and televised and all the images derived therefrom) is prior and more essential?

The interesting thing is that we don't have to, because students have not made a profit-sharing claim on the TV revenues. All they've sought and finally attained is the right to profit from the celebrity their athletic achievements have earned them. They've ceded all the other property to the NCAA and the schools.

-- similar perplexity about the fourth paragraph: "The NCAA never said you may never profit from your image, instead they said, if you choose to try to profit from your image in a way that is derivative of your college athlete status you won’t be allowed to participate in our organization." Something about this doesn't exactly ring true for me, but that may be because of my ignorance of legal issues. Their "college athlete status" doesn't seem to me to belong to the schools or the NCAA for the same reasons as above. It depends on their being a competitive league, and coaches, and related staff, even an entire athletic department, to be sure. But those people and those departments are mutually dependent on the students and their talents. In the bad old days, when they were specifically not permitted to profit from their celebrity, the NCAA was saying something very like "you may not profit from your image, but we can."

I guess much of this depends on how we understood what a student athlete is and whether this represents a property that can be claimed exclusively by the school. I'd think not, but I may well be wrong in my reading of this. Or, I may be "theologically" correct but no court of law would ever hear it the way I do.
 

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This is turned out to be an interesting conversation, hasn’t it? Well, at least to the two of us. Maybe if it is going to continue, we should take it to PM?

is any part of their "amateur athletic status" somehow not their property? They get their opportunity and some of their training from employees of the school. The school has invested in them. But the school only has an athletic program that is in any way marketable due to their talents and efforts. Is it entirely clear who is leveraging whom in this case?
Again, I think an analogy is helpful. If you work for IBM and decide to run a side business, nothing prevent you from doing that, so long as you aren’t in direct competition with IBM or violating a confidentiality agreement. But if you go out and advertise that business as “IBM employee Bone Dog” you are leveraging that affiliation. Likewise, if you go out to a conference as an IBM representative and at their expense, if you start reaching out to people, saying, by the way, I have my own side gig going, you are leveraging your relationship with IBM. I suppose you could make the argument that your employment status is “your property” but I don’t think it’s one that would prevail. This is essentially what the rule was pre-NIL.
 

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I noticed this article and it got me thinking of how the money involved may be adding newcomers to the top teams and forcing top teams to change the way they entice recruits. Every South Carolina player receives $25,000 for instance in addition to whatever individual deals can be generated. Wealthy alumni make huge contributions to Miami, Syracuse and other schools to "hire" players. I know Paige and Azzi have wonderful deals but will UConn have to do more than make tee shirts for sale to "stay in the game"? I realize there are a lot of perspectives and I don't know which is right but I think it's worthy of discussion
Hedge commented: I know Paige and Azzi have wonderful deals but will UConn have to do more than make tee shirts for sale to "stay in the game"?

YES!!! Money talks.....
it always has. :cool: It also speaks several different languages and is very easy for the listener to understand. ;)
 
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If you work for IBM and decide to run a side business, nothing prevent you from doing that, so long as you aren’t in direct competition with IBM or violating a confidentiality agreement. But if you go out and advertise that business as “IBM employee Bone Dog” you are leveraging that affiliation. Likewise, if you go out to a conference as an IBM representative and at their expense, if you start reaching out to people, saying, by the way, I have my own side gig going, you are leveraging your relationship with IBM. I suppose you could make the argument that your employment status is “your property” but I don’t think it’s one that would prevail. This is essentially what the rule was pre-NIL.
Interesting analogy. I'd add, if you're on salary at IBM, your side gig also cannot hinder your work for IBM, even if it doesn't represent any other sort of conflict.

This concept of "leveraging" is really intriguing and complicated. I think you have to be right about employment status not being the employee's property. That doesn't seem to be a credible argument. Now to test the analogy: 1) is a student athlete an employee? and the prior question, Are students employees? Many students have tested this notion in litigation against universities. Grad student TAs recently won a significant concession from the UC in which they demanded employee benefits, and this entailed being recognized as employees, something the university had resisted for many years. 2) Even if NIL is best understood as a property rights issue, is the student-athlete's training and competing while wearing a university-branded jersey a form of employment? If we think it could be leveraged, we might have to say so. But here again, I think universities have resisted this notion too. But if the student-athletes are not employees, then leverage may not be the appropriate category to apply here. This looks like a delicious rabbit hole to plunge into! Who knows what warren of distinctions might be discovered.

One last thought: the endorsements Paige and Azzi and others get are sometimes for athletic shoe companies and other things tangentially related to their athletic endeavors. But they also endorse things like restaurant chains, electronics brands, etc. In other words, much of their NIL income is not closely related to their student-athlete status and yet was forbidden until recently.
 
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