End of Year Awards

[Vowelguy]

. . . and leading in shots taken by an even wider margin. That impresses me less than Iriafen averaging a double-double.

I just think that an All-American should shoot better than the average player on their own team. An AA guard should have more As than TOs.

I understand your point but I think you need to take in the context of the teams that players are on.

If I played on a rec team with Lebron I'd probably have a higher shooting percentage than him, because I'd only shoot when I had a wide open layup, and I'd expect him to take every single difficult, bail-out shot.

 

[bbsamjj]

My prediction will be something like this:

1st: Caitin Clark, Juju Watkins, Angel Reese, Cameron Brink, Kamila Cardoso

Comments: I think it should be Hidalgo over Watkins, but Juju has the name recognition and higher profile team, so she gets the nod. Cardoso gets 1st team as the best player on the best team. Reese gets repeat honors (I think she has the stats to back it up). Brink gets promoted over Mackenzie Holmes due to the H2H matchup.

2nd: Hanna Hidalgo, Jacy Sheldon, Alyssa Pili, Mackenzie Holmes, Elizabeth Kitley

Comments: Hidalgo is borderline first team and no worse than 2nd team. Pili, Holmes and Kitley were all either 1st or 2nd team last year, and none of them have done badly enough to drop below at least 2nd team. Sheldon is a bit of a long horse, but she has the stats and OSU is #2 in the country. She's probably the least likely to get 2nd team.

3rd: Te-Hina Paopao, Jaylyn Sherod/Saniya Rivers, Aneesah Morrow, Aliyah Edwards, Lauren Betts

Comments: Morrow and Edwards hold their 3rd team honors from last season. Betts kept UCLA at #2 for a long portion of the season and has been a difference maker for the Bruins. Paopao gets the bump as the best guard (statistically) on the #1 team and to make up for LSU having two spots (really hard not to give it to Morrow given how well she's fit into LSU while improving her shooting from last season); I can see her getting left off though. Last spot was tough to pick. I'll give it to either Sherod from Colorado or Rivers from NCState for being the respective engines for their overachieving teams.

HM: Sherod/Rivers loser from above, Bueckers (yes, controversial on a UConn board, but both her and Edwards aren't getting honors this year), Rickea Jackson. Cotie McMahon, Kiki Iriafen, Madison Booker, Ayoka Lee, Georgia Amoore, Raegan Beers, Charisma Osbourne, Mikayla Williams, Audi Crooks

I know there is a debate among UConn fans about who is more deserving to be recognized between Bueckers and Edwards, but I would be shocked if voters don't honor Paige due to MUCH higher name ID, plus the fact that she's having a great comeback season.

IMO, if voters are going to honor someone from NC State, I think it's A. James.

 

[bennyskid]

I understand your point but I think you need to take in the context of the teams that players are on.

If I played on a rec team with Lebron I'd probably have a higher shooting percentage than him, because I'd only shoot when I had a wide open layup, and I'd expect him to take every single difficult, bail-out shot.

Then wouldn't you expect the team as a whole to have good shooting percentages?
USC as a team is eighth in the conference for shooting percentage. They are admittedly better from the arc (third in conference). JuJu doesn't seem to be opening up the others for better shots like you describe.
And it's not like the rest of USC is a bunch of schlubs. Gayles was the #8 recruit, Bigby was #29, Forbes a McDAA, and so on. Juju is not making them better like LeBron makes you better on your rec team.

 

[BigTenGuy]

I am skeptical that with her stark shooting inefficiency and negative assist-to-turnover ratio, JuJu can make AP and/or USBWA first team AA. Historically, it seems, AP and USBWA voters have been reluctant to place freshman on the first team.

The complete AP freshman first team AA list (beginning in 1995) is Courtney Paris, Maya Moore and Paige Bueckers. Logically, the voters that kept Caitlin Clark off the first team her first year because of concerns about her turnovers should not be JuJu voters. The USBWA (beginning in 1988) has had 7 freshman first team AAs, but only Paige and Caitlin Clark made the USBWA first team as freshman in a year when the USBWA was picking a 5-player team.

 

[bballnut90]

. . . and leading in shots taken by an even wider margin. That impresses me less than Iriafen averaging a double-double.

I just think that an All-American should shoot better than the average player on their own team. An AA guard should have more As than TOs.

Fun fact: Caitlin Clark has shot lower than her team’s percentage all 4 years she’s played. Should she not make an All America team either?


Team success is one of the biggest indicators for making an All America team. Juju Watkins isn’t the most efficient but fact is she’s 2nd in the nation in points per game and is carrying a top 10 team on her back. She’s carried them to wins at Stanford, vs. UCLA, at Ohio State and at Oregon State and has averaged 33 ppg in those contests. Inefficiency, turnovers and all, there aren’t 5 players having a better season than Watkins is. She’s an All American.

 

[triaddukefan]

Bueckers or Kitley? Who gets the final spot on the AP first team?

 

[BigTenGuy]

Fun fact: Caitlin Clark has shot lower than her team’s percentage all 4 years she’s played. Should she not make an All America team either?

Of course she did, as a guard. Iowa led the nation in FG% her first three years, and is 2nd this year. Also, Iowa’s eFG% is 2nd in the nation this year, but Clark’s eFG% is higher this year.

 

[bballnut90]

Bueckers or Kitley? Who gets the final spot on the AP first team?

I’d put Kitley on there as of right now. Better stats, better in big games, and better team results. My 5 would be Clark, Brink, Watkins, Hidalgo and Kitley. 2nd Team I’d choose Bueckers, Cardoso, Reese, Pili and Sheldon. Beers and Lee are just misses at this point for me.

 

[undersized]

I am skeptical that with her stark shooting inefficiency and negative assist-to-turnover ratio, JuJu can make AP and/or USBWA first team AA. Historically, it seems, AP and USBWA voters have been reluctant to place freshman on the first team.

The complete AP freshman first team AA list (beginning in 1995) is Courtney Paris, Maya Moore and Paige Bueckers. Logically, the voters that kept Caitlin Clark off the first team her first year because of concerns about her turnovers should not be JuJu voters. The USBWA (beginning in 1988) has had 7 freshman first team AAs, but only Paige and Caitlin Clark made the USBWA first team as freshman in a year when the USBWA was picking a 5-player team.

I'm an Iowa fan -- but we did not have the same level of regular season success in 2020-2021 (Clark's freshman year) that USC has had so far this season. I think that makes Watkins more likely to get a 1st team nod. Clark also had the disadvantage of playing the same position as fellow freshman Bueckers who got more of the media attention being the #1 recruit on a better team. Like Bueckers, Watkins also has the allure of being the #1 recruit.

 

[bbsamjj]

Then wouldn't you expect the team as a whole to have good shooting percentages?
USC as a team is eighth in the conference for shooting percentage. They are admittedly better from the arc (third in conference). JuJu doesn't seem to be opening up the others for better shots like you describe.
And it's not like the rest of USC is a bunch of schlubs. Gayles was the #8 recruit, Bigby was #29, Forbes a McDAA, and so on. Juju is not making them better like LeBron makes you better on your rec team.

Gayles was tragically the victim of a shooting that made her miss her entire freshman year. The fact that she is back on the team as a redshirt frosh is a minor miracle, but she's only appeared in 7 games this year.

The USC team looks a lot different than last year's team, not just because of Juju, but there's no question this year's version is MUCH better offensively than last year's:

this year's USC: 74ppg, 43%FG, 36% 3-ptFG
last year's USC: 64.2ppg, 38%FG, 32.5% 3-ptFG

Meanwhile, they have wins over the #2, #3, #9 (Twice), and #12 teams in the country.

 

[bennyskid]

Ok. bbsamjj's argument is a pretty good one. Maybe Juju is . . . . not undeserving.

 

[jdote33]

I’d put Kitley on there as of right now. Better stats, better in big games, and better team results. My 5 would be Clark, Brink, Watkins, Hidalgo and Kitley. 2nd Team I’d choose Bueckers, Cardoso, Reese, Pili and Sheldon. Beers and Lee are just misses at this point for me.

It's really close. I was at the unc vs UConn game. Unc was top 25 at the time. Bueckers was incredible. She was pretty great vs Louisville as well. She definitely struggled against Texas and Notre Dame. And average against South Carolina. I actually thought she was great against NC State, we just didn't realize how good NC State was at the time.

Kitley wasn't great early in the season against Iowa or LSU, though she may have had a double double both games. She struggled in their loss to Duke and Florida State. But she's been amazing almost every other game. Id probably edge Kitley too tho but I kinda think it's a pick em. UConn does have one more loss but they've had a lot more injuries and shuffling of the lineup.

If Gonzaga ends the season with just two losses can Yvonne Ejm get some love. Comparable stats to pili except more rebounds. Put up 27 in a W vs Stanford..

Loved the two list tho.

 

[VAUConnFan]

... and JuJu was 11-33 in her first game against OSU. She's the definition of "volume shooter".

Color me unimpressed. She has talent, but I just can't imagine that there aren't 10 players better than her in the country.

51 points, 11 rebounds, 4 steals in a victory over Stanford; you are an awfully hard person to impress. There is a chance that there are 5 better players, but certainly not 10.

 

[TheFarmFan]

51 points, 11 rebounds, 4 steals in a victory over Stanford; you are an awfully hard person to impress. There is a chance that there are 5 better players, but certainly not 10.

Was there to see it live. Honestly, we didn't even defend her poorly - she was just hitting one contested mid-range jumper after another. If she can get 30+ points off the lowest percentage shots in the game, you just gotta tip your hat. I have no doubt she's one of the 5 best players in WCBB. She looked ready to start in the W already, and she's only going to get better in the next three years...

 

[The deacon]

Was there to see it live. Honestly, we didn't even defend her poorly - she was just hitting one contested mid-range jumper after another. If she can get 30+ points off the lowest percentage shots in the game, you just gotta tip your hat. I have no doubt she's one of the 5 best players in WCBB. She looked ready to start in the W already, and she's only going to get better in the next three years...

From what I've seen, only on TV, The FarmFan, I'd tend to agree, but her consistency is very much open to question. 6 of 32 in her most recent game, even in a victory, was horrible. and she's had other games with a very low percentage from the floor.

Yes, I understand she's a freshman and perhaps more prone to inconsistency, but when choosing All-Americans, shouldn't we be looking at all of her games, regardless of her class?

 

[jdote33]

This is probably not the appropriate thread but can we do all conference teams too? Cuz I wanna go on a Sarah Ashlee Barker rant. She's been lights out this season. I always thought she was talented, like when she was at Georgia. Had good size and was a good athlete. But to go from 7 points a game to like 17 6 and 3 on her shooting splits is remarkable. And she should make All SEC first team. Overall Alabama is low key a fun team to watch. Angela Nye is awesome as well. I think they lose big tonight but don't hold that against them.
All SEC first team
Paopao
Barker
Jackson
Reese
Cardoso

I hate to not put Morrow on but Tennessee with Rickea and without Rickea is night and day.

 

[TheFarmFan]

From what I've seen, only on TV, The FarmFan, I'd tend to agree, but her consistency is very much open to question. 6 of 32 in her most recent game, even in a victory, was horrible. and she's had other games with a very low percentage from the floor.

Yes, I understand she's a freshman and perhaps more prone to inconsistency, but when choosing All-Americans, shouldn't we be looking at all of her games, regardless of her class?

I mean, even Stewie had some 2-11 and 1-7 games her freshman year, and she shared the court with multiple A-As who deflected a lot of defensive attention. Off nights happen even to Goats. The difference is Stewie had Geno.

Without throwing her coach too far under the bus, let's just say I suspect part of JuJu's inconsistent shooting stats are as much about the quality of the offensive plays drawn up for her / her team as anything else. 6-32 is at least as much on the coach for not coming up with a Plan B. The idea of any player attempting that under Geno is laughable - his head might actually explode.

I feel really, really confident that JuJu is generationally talented after watching her play up close and in person. First time I've ever been in Maples to see Stanford lose, and even I was glad to be there just to witness such an unforgettable athletic performance.

 

[bballnut90]

This is probably not the appropriate thread but can we do all conference teams too? Cuz I wanna go on a Sarah Ashlee Barker rant. She's been lights out this season. I always thought she was talented, like when she was at Georgia. Had good size and was a good athlete. But to go from 7 points a game to like 17 6 and 3 on her shooting splits is remarkable. And she should make All SEC first team. Overall Alabama is low key a fun team to watch. Angela Nye is awesome as well. I think they lose big tonight but don't hold that against them.
All SEC first team
Paopao
Barker
Jackson
Reese
Cardoso

I hate to not put Morrow on but Tennessee with Rickea and without Rickea is night and day.

I think this thread is appropriate for conference discussion too. Barker is having a great year but I'd choose Morrow over her. That said, last year 8 players made 1st team All-SEC, so there's room for both. I'd choose:

Angel Reese (POY)
Kamilla Cardoso
Rickea Jackson
Aneesah Morrow
JerKaila Jordan
Sarah Ashlee Barker
Raven Johnson
Te-hina Pao Pao


Worth noting, I would've put Taliah Scott on the team but she has likely missed too many games (6) to be eligible for conference awards.

 

[bballnut90]

From what I've seen, only on TV, The FarmFan, I'd tend to agree, but her consistency is very much open to question. 6 of 32 in her most recent game, even in a victory, was horrible. and she's had other games with a very low percentage from the floor.

Yes, I understand she's a freshman and perhaps more prone to inconsistency, but when choosing All-Americans, shouldn't we be looking at all of her games, regardless of her class?

Caitlin Clark had her share of poor shooting nights as a sophomore but was still a unanimous 1st team All American and likely NPOY runner up to Boston. Some shooting numbers below from that year:

4-19 FG vs. Creighton
6-17 FG vs. Indiana
7-25 FG vs. Maryland
6-17 FG @ Penn State
5-14 FG @ Purdue
5-18 FG vs. UCF
9-25 FG vs. Michigan State
9-27 FG @ Duke
2-9 FG vs. Southern


Just from a historical aspect, I don't think there's ever been a player who has averaged 25+ PPG and led her team to be ranked top 10 almost all year who wasn't picked for 1st Team All America honors.

 

[CamrnCrz1974]

Paige is going to win based on narrative (and she is deserving, no doubt) but I’d give it to Edwards. Producing excellent numbers while playing out of position as the only serviceable frontcourt player on the team.

The way that Edwards is currently playing she will be named the Big East Player of the Year.

A few days ago, @ucbart texted me and @EricLA with his hot take about Aaliyah Edwards being Big East POY. She has been a dominant force but in such a workmanlike, unsung way.
I would be thrilled if Edwards won BE POY!

 

[FormerCTrez]

I don't think Bueckers is a lock. Her running mate, Edwards and Karlen, from Marquette, may have a word.

She‘s been steady all season, so I’m hoping she wins.

 

[CajunHusky]

Paige is going to win and it isn't just on narrative. She is producing excellent numbers across the board, points rebounds assists fg% 3pt%. Steals, Blocks all around outstanding defense. And all of this while playing out of position. Outstanding leadership, the glue that holds the team together and outstanding character.

Yes Aaliyah is deserving but ....

 

[VAUConnFan]

JuJu goes for 42 against a very good Colorado squad. TheFarmFan is right - She is Top 5 without doubt.

It should also be noted that there are a ton of outstanding freshmen making major contributions throughout WCBB. The freshman I will be having my eyes on over the next three seasons is Milaysia Fulwiley at South Carolina; might already be the most skilled player in WCBB and her defense improves with every outing.

 

[maccca3232]

Just from a historical aspect, I don't think there's ever been a player who has averaged 25+ PPG and led her team to be ranked top 10 almost all year who wasn't picked for 1st Team All America honors.

As you using stats to determine potential AA status, since 2002-03 every player who has averaged 25+ PPG for a Top 15 ranked team (Last Week AP Rank) has been an 1st Team AP AA.

In fact there was only 1 player from a ranked team who wasn't 1st Team, which was Andre Riley (2009-10 Oklahoma St. Ranked 20) who was 2nd Team AP AA that year.

Table below is sorted by TS% (which is favorable to Waktins because she shoots so many Free Throws), even then she would still have the worst shooting efficiency to make 1st Team AP AA.

Bold = PPG Season Leader

 

[Vowelguy]

eFG? TS?