Economics of Women's basketball | The Boneyard

Economics of Women's basketball

UConn82

UConn82

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All,

Why do the women players make so much more money in Europe (and Australia?) than they do in the WNBA?

Is there so much more interest in women's basketball in Europe that it draws many more fans, which allows the teams to pay the players so much more?

I get that women's basketball is a bit of a niche sport compared to baseball, football, and men's basketball. It is something of an acquired taste. (I myself find men's basketball boring.)

Thoughts?
 
No. European WBB does not draw more than the WNBA. In fact in most cases it is less and much less. The reasons/economics are not simple.

"Some teams, like most of the teams in Russia, are funded by the municipal governments to serve as a source of local pride. Others, like those in Turkey, are attached to very lucrative men’s soccer clubs." Barker: For WNBA players, the real money is overseas

Some teams have corporate sponsors who regard the teams as great advertising.

Diana can tell you how great it was to have a Russian oligarch as a proverbial sugar daddy.

It is a perverse source of frustration to many in the WNBA that the best players in the world in the best league in the world are paid so little. IMO endless complaining about that does not help.
 
We'll soon learn a lot more about the economics of the sport, because it's likely that the WNBA players association will exercise their option to leave the collective bargaining agreement by the end of this month. That will bring out a lot of data, arguments, and negotiations.

I suspect that the truth will begin to come out, whatever that truth is.
 
RockyMTblue2 said:
No. European WBB does not draw more than the WNBA. In fact in most cases it is less and much less. The reasons/economics are not simple.

"Some teams, like most of the teams in Russia, are funded by the municipal governments to serve as a source of local pride. Others, like those in Turkey, are attached to very lucrative men’s soccer clubs." Barker: For WNBA players, the real money is overseas

Some teams have corporate sponsors who regard the teams as great advertising.

Diana can tell you how great it was to have a Russian oligarch as a proverbial sugar daddy.

It is a perverse source of frustration to many in the WNBA that the best players in the world in the best league in the world are paid so little. IMO endless complaining about that does not help.[/QUOTE
________________________________________________

Which all proves that the American oligarchs; those that own WNBA teams are less interested than their European counterparts in providing fair (whatever that is) wages if they can simply use the market as their excuse to keep pay at low levels.
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UConn82 said:
(and Australia?)
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Nope. A very niche market. As recently as 2009 players were making $5-10K a season and working 2 jobs. A small market and it lost it's TV contract a year or so ago. It is a stepping stone to international play for some. Still, it attracts some very good WNBA talent.
 
Fairfield Fan said:
We'll soon learn a lot more about the economics of the sport, because it's likely that the WNBA players association will exercise their option to leave the collective bargaining agreement by the end of this month. That will bring out a lot of data, arguments, and negotiations.

I suspect that the truth will begin to come out, whatever that truth is.
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Good article on current status of CBA:

CBA opt-out deadline looms for WNBA, players' union

- In addition to the players, the WNBA also has the option to opt out by 10/31
- WNBA won't comment on whether they are considering this (not surprising given they currently have no president/CEO)
- Players have already voted, voting ended 10/21
- Players studied information provided by the league (hmmmm...) on the WNBA's business model.
- Votes are being certified, then results will be given to CBA committee (35 players led by Nneka), then to the players at large, then to the WNBA
 
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A lot of the European teams are also part of 'Athletic Clubs' that included men's basketball and men's soccer teams (Turkish teams in particular.) Most of the women's teams are not profitable, and in some cases teams and whole leagues have gone bankrupt in mid-season.
 
While it probably merits its own thread when the time comes (the WNBA CBA issues), I must say that I find it hard to believe that there are enormous sums of money "really" there and waiting to be distributed.

I don't believe that the WNBA can supply salaries to the women's players that are comparable to other major sports or markets and no where near what they are arguably worth, all the while taking a toll on their bodies. As much as I enjoy the WNBA as a "thing", I think the time has come to consider folding, rather than continuing what so many seem to view as financial abuse of the players. The support just isn't there. A fact I really, really think is sad.
 
As to size of audience (forget paying audience) check out the season's game involving Stewie's Kursk team:



Like a HS gym.
 
Generally the WNBA has just been a showcase for players in their negotiations with over seas teams. If they do well in the WNBA it improves their market value for the over seas teams. None of it reflects their actual supply and demand value though. Very little public market value either over seas or in the USA.

Actually the value of the WNBA is fueled and dictated by the fans of Women's College Basketball. Fans of the college game follow their players to the pro's. How well the WCBB teams draw would be one indicator of how popular the WNBA realistically can expect to be. How many teams in WCBB produce a profit compared to how many need to be carried by the major income producing sports like football and mens basketball.

If the womens college teams were not affiliated with the college, how many fans would be sitting in the stands during games. Probably far less than are presently there. That is the true market value of womens basketball. People need to remember the parable of " The goose that laid the golden eggs"and not end up killing the goose.
 
It seems obvious but if the women want to be paid more they need to increase their market value. That is presently totally dependent on tv money. The media is choosing not to invest in the WNBA. The only other option is to get more investment from private sources.
 
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Give the whole deal (WNBA) to Nike to manage, negotiate TV, marketing, etc. I suspect they'd be able to take a longer term look at payback without it doing much to hurt their bottom line.
 
willtalk said:
Generally the WNBA has just been a showcase for players in their negotiations with over seas teams. If they do well in the WNBA it improves their market value for the over seas teams. None of it reflects their actual supply and demand value though. Very little public market value either over seas or in the USA.

Actually the value of the WNBA is fueled and dictated by the fans of Women's College Basketball. Fans of the college game follow their players to the pro's. How well the WCBB teams draw would be one indicator of how popular the WNBA realistically can expect to be. How many teams in WCBB produce a profit compared to how many need to be carried by the major income producing sports like football and mens basketball.

If the womens college teams were not affiliated with the college, how many fans would be sitting in the stands during games. Probably far less than are presently there. That is the true market value of womens basketball. People need to remember the parable of " The goose that laid the golden eggs"and not end up killing the goose.
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It would be interesting to understand how many fans of women's college basketball go to WNBA games. I have been to many UConn and other college games in the past but never to a WNBA game. Not sure why but don't feel the same attachment to WNBA style of play and players.
 
RockyMTblue2 said:
No. European WBB does not draw more than the WNBA. In fact in most cases it is less and much less. The reasons/economics are not simple.

"Some teams, like most of the teams in Russia, are funded by the municipal governments to serve as a source of local pride. Others, like those in Turkey, are attached to very lucrative men’s soccer clubs." Barker: For WNBA players, the real money is overseas

Some teams have corporate sponsors who regard the teams as great advertising.

Diana can tell you how great it was to have a Russian oligarch as a proverbial sugar daddy.

It is a perverse source of frustration to many in the WNBA that the best players in the world in the best league in the world are paid so little. IMO endless complaining about that does not help.
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All good points. Professional sports and its ties to advertising and
 
HopJim said:
All good points. Professional sports and its ties to advertising and
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Sorry, never finished previous note. European professional sports much different than US. Not unusual to see sports including water polo, track, etc. having pro teams not based at all on ticket sales but 99% funded on an advertising model. Salaries combined with living expenses typically similar or in the case of big names like DT, significantly better financially. Unless the WNBA can figure out a way to gain advertising revenues, their current efforts are unlikely to succeed and may in fact be backfiring.
 
HopJim said:
It would be interesting to understand how many fans of women's college basketball go to WNBA games. I have been to many UConn and other college games in the past but never to a WNBA game. Not sure why but don't feel the same attachment to WNBA style of play and players.
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For the most part I do not find WNBA games to be all that interesting. A notable exception was last years Seattle/Phoenix games which were incredibly entertaining. The Bird/Taurasi match up reminded me of the Bird/Magic match ups. Just great competitors each willing their teams to win. Championship series was good Diana versus Sue was amazing.
 
HopJim said:
It would be interesting to understand how many fans of women's college basketball go to WNBA games. I have been to many UConn and other college games in the past but never to a WNBA game. Not sure why but don't feel the same attachment to WNBA style of play and players.
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The nearest WNBA franchises are about a 5 hour drive away from me. When there was a franchise in Charlotte.... I went to a handful of games. Obviously its easier to become attached to a team when its down the road. These days... I just root for Duke players an hope the teams they play on do well.
 
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triaddukefan said:
The nearest WNBA franchises are about a 5 hour drive away from me. When there was a franchise in Charlotte.... I went to a handful of games. Obviously its easier to become attached to a team when its down the road. These days... I just root for Duke players an hope the teams they play on do well.
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Yup, my interest centers on UConn players in the WNBA. Of course, I have a wider field than you do triad. :oops::rolleyes:
 
I don't enjoy the WNBA style of play. To my amateur's eye, it is much less elegant than the best college teams: UConn (of course), ND, and Stanford.

But, to be clear, I don't enjoy the NBA either.
 
RockyMTblue2 said:
No. European WBB does not draw more than the WNBA. In fact in most cases it is less and much less. The reasons/economics are not simple.

"Some teams, like most of the teams in Russia, are funded by the municipal governments to serve as a source of local pride. Others, like those in Turkey, are attached to very lucrative men’s soccer clubs." Barker: For WNBA players, the real money is overseas

Some teams have corporate sponsors who regard the teams as great advertising.

Diana can tell you how great it was to have a Russian oligarch as a proverbial sugar daddy.

It is a perverse source of frustration to many in the WNBA that the best players in the world in the best league in the world are paid so little. IMO endless complaining about that does not help.
Expand ...
Absolutely you are correct Europe has locally funded men's basketball teams as an extension of their manlyness, local pride. Then there is the different manner in which European women have been seen vs the Southern Bell mentality annexed by Yankees. During the late 1800's and up past 1960's the USA had the idea women were to be protected. Europe put women in their armies but not the USA. Chauvinistic this America. So Women everything (the exception was the medical, scientific, professional communities) was slow in evolution. Gamblers, Colleges, Schools, etc were dragged kicking and screaming to give women real teams and they are still playing catch-up. Women's sports (BB, Soccer, Softball) are catching on. Remember JD Rockerfella passed out pennies not dollars--frugal these American businesses.
Isn't it interesting that the same country that produced the Conestoga Wagon women couldn't see how tough they really were?
 
HopJim said:
It would be interesting to understand how many fans of women's college basketball go to WNBA games. I have been to many UConn and other college games in the past but never to a WNBA game. Not sure why but don't feel the same attachment to WNBA style of play and players.
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A simple test--watch regular season games (WNBA) and look in the stands. Then compare that to the top 10 or 25 College teams attendance. Or if you are like Rocky just look up the attendance records. I have a feeling CWBB wins
 
BroadwayVa said:
A simple test--watch regular season games (WNBA) and look in the stands. Then compare that to the top 10 or 25 College teams attendance. Or if you are like Rocky just look up the attendance records. I have a feeling CWBB wins
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You knew I'd be compelled to look it up. Actually just 7 Div I schools exceed the WNBA average game attendance figure (down to 6721 this past season). The schools are here: Attendance at Women's Basketball Games: The Top 20 in Division I
 
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My comments were meant for saving the WNBA . Personally I believe that the amount of money paid to pro athletes is ridiculous. Why should pro men or women expect to be paid millions. I think it is obscene to pay athletes that amount of money to play a game. Just saying
 
paisan said:
My comments were meant for saving the WNBA . Personally I believe that the amount of money paid to pro athletes is ridiculous. Why should pro men or women expect to be paid millions. I think it is obscene to pay athletes that amount of money to play a game. Just saying
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I thought that too. But if some idiot is willing to pay me big bucks, I'll angle for more to play the game I'd be playing in the playground (at age 65 and much younger) for free. It has never been the players driving the big buck (ok their agents) you can't demand and get what someone won't give you. TV, advertisers get billions.
Players, Coaches, Agents get money for a game--professors, teachers, those who guide our youth get the equivalent of their weekend chump change. No one ever told me this was a fair world and I'm angry about the unfairness.
 
RockyMTblue2 said:
You knew I'd be compelled to look it up. Actually just 7 Div I schools exceed the WNBA average game attendance figure (down to 6721 this past season). The schools are here: Attendance at Women's Basketball Games: The Top 20 in Division I
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Your data are from 2012-13 (I noticed #1 South Carolina wasn't in your top 25, so I checked). But same idea - different order, but still just 7 schools over 6721 in 2017-18:

13,239 South Carolina
10,026 UConn
9,870 Iowa State
8,778 Tennessee
7,836 Louisville
7,637 Notre Dame
7,439 Mississippi State

See P. 3
http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/w_basketball_RB/2019/Attendance.pdf
 
paisan said:
My comments were meant for saving the WNBA . Personally I believe that the amount of money paid to pro athletes is ridiculous. Why should pro men or women expect to be paid millions. I think it is obscene to pay athletes that amount of money to play a game. Just saying
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Well, fans are paying billions for tickets and for jerseys, TV is paying billions for the right to broadcast. So there are billions of bucks out there. Who else but the athletes deserves to pick up those billions? How much do the owners deserve? The NBA is prospering with a 50/50 split of revenues.

It's the players whom fans come to see. It's the players who, well, play. So if the game is bringing in billions, then why not give the people who are at the heart of the game the money?

Makes sense to me.
 
The interesting thing with the 50/50 split for NBA is that it is based on revenue not profit, which I assume is because that businesses in general try to reduce their profit for tax purposes.

How realistic is it for the WNBA to justify the same revenue split as the NBA, when we don't know how profitable each league is? Even if the NBA team loses money in an individual year, the franchises themselves are increasing in value, so in the long run the owners still come out in front. Can the same be said about the WNBA franchises? How many and what percentage of WNBA franchises have folded? When was the last? Now ask the same question about NBA franchises?

From the article Basketball's Growing Gender Wage Gap: The Evidence the WNBA is Underpaying Players there is a link to Summit Hoops which shows WNBA salaries. Even though average salary in the article says ~$70k most are either: over 100K or rookie contracts.

No doubt the very top players deserve more money. I admit I haven't read the current CBA for the WNBA but I think a way to compensate those top players is to introduce a criteria based ranking (All-Star, All-WNBA, PIE, Win Shares etc.) for the equivalent of a super-max contract of 50% of the maximum contract. This would add approx 6.5% to overall salaries (based on salaries of 110k maximum and 71k average).

This would be excluded from the salary cap and restricted to a max of one per team (i.e. the highest rated player on each team) and paid by the WNBA not the individual teams.
 
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