Early January All-American Considerations

[TheFarmFan]

And Nurse is better at the next level then Samuelson or Williams. That is where it really counts, and Lou has the type of game to fit in the WNBA.

Sure. But this isn't a thread about WNBA draft prospects. And I think Lou will need to work on her size / physicality for the W, because she's a bit of a tweener size wise to be a true wing/forward, and I don't think she has either the ball handling or speed to function as secondary distributor / defensive specialist. She's almost got the inverse of the problems Haley Jones will have, where Jones is too big to distribute (though she's great at it), doesn't have a strong enough 3 point shot to be a wing, and is too small to pull the power forward moves she does now in the W. Somehow 6'0/6'1" is the most challenging size to be moving into women's pro hoops, because your height ceases to give you any kind of edge, but you've thus far relied on that your whole life.

And it's a testament to just how talented pros like Maya Moore were to be able to translate to the pro game so seamlessly.

 

[LwrcasefaN]

I think the real question is prioritizing the Alpha, Beta and Tertiary recommendations for AA considerations. From UConn perspective, for it's durability and regular contribution is Aaliyah as the Alpha with Azzi as the current Beta due to all the injury time she's had but if she comes back to her prior productive self, she becomes the Alpha and Aaliyah is the Beta so at best Lou would be the third option which is never going to get serious consideration for AA as UConn is not dominant the way it was with Stewart/Jefferson/Tuck or Samuelson/Collier/Williams so is Lou having a great year, yes, has she put herself into WNBA consideration, yes, is she a viable candidate for AA, no, she can get the just as noteworthy "Honorable Mention" line though.

Comparing UCONN players (or any team members) to one another and assigning them levels of "durability and contribution" to justify whether they should be AA has flaws. If you're on an elite team...numbers alone will probably not sell your resume. The best teams get contributions consistently from many positions. I don't care what option they may be on their individual team...it doesn't mean that they aren't better AA candidates than the #1 option on another team. The primary consideration should START with what you alluded to...is the player having a great year? In this scenario...the "third option", aka Lou is having a great year...and if we're honest...and using your suggested criteria...hasn't she been the UCONN second option? Azzi would meet the contribution criteria, but she, unfortunately, hasn't met the durable one...up to this point. No one doubts that she will. I'm not delusional and this isn't a perfect science and the perspectives are great. The conversations are credible. I could make an argument for almost any player over another...just some less convincing. Whatever criteria are used I think they should weigh more heavily towards "what have you done lately and against whom" versus "what you were expected to do based on past performances". NOW...after all that...Boston is an AA hands down and a player like Cooke is a beneficiary, currently on my AA short list, but she has work to do. I don't dismiss any of the mentioned players in this thread, but I think some contenders were left off.

 

[LwrcasefaN]

Sure. But this isn't a thread about WNBA draft prospects. And I think Lou will need to work on her size / physicality for the W, because she's a bit of a tweener size wise to be a true wing/forward, and I don't think she has either the ball handling or speed to function as secondary distributor / defensive specialist. She's almost got the inverse of the problems Haley Jones will have, where Jones is too big to distribute (though she's great at it), doesn't have a strong enough 3 point shot to be a wing, and is too small to pull the power forward moves she does now in the W. Somehow 6'0/6'1" is the most challenging size to be moving into women's pro hoops, because your height ceases to give you any kind of edge, but you've thus far relied on that your whole life.

And it's a testament to just how talented pros like Maya Moore were to be able to translate to the pro game so seamlessly.

I don't know too many players who don't need to make skill or physical adjustments as they move up. Kelsey Plum was deadly until...the WNBA. She just kept at it. I don't see Celeste Taylor or even Zia Cooke as ideal WNBA physical prospects, but adjustments can be made if you commit to the work and if you find the ideal fit.

 

[DefenseBB]

Comparing UCONN players (or any team members) to one another and assigning them levels of "durability and contribution" to justify whether they should be AA has flaws. If you're on an elite team...numbers alone will probably not sell your resume. The best teams get contributions consistently from many positions. I don't care what option they may be on their individual team...it doesn't mean that they aren't better AA candidates than the #1 option on another team. The primary consideration should START with what you alluded to...is the player having a great year? In this scenario...the "third option", aka Lou is having a great year...and if we're honest...and using your suggested criteria...hasn't she been the UCONN second option? Azzi would meet the contribution criteria, but she, unfortunately, hasn't met the durable one...up to this point. No one doubts that she will. I'm not delusional and this isn't a perfect science and the perspectives are great. The conversations are credible. I could make an argument for almost any player over another...just some less convincing. Whatever criteria are used I think they should weigh more heavily towards "what have you done lately and against whom" versus "what you were expected to do based on past performances". NOW...after all that...Boston is an AA hands down and a player like Cooke is a beneficiary, currently on my AA short list, but she has work to do. I don't dismiss any of the mentioned players in this thread, but I think some contenders were left off.

I live in the real world where rankings and national perception exist. As Azzi was and still is on the National POY radar, realistically, only Aaliyah and Azzi will get consideration. As the stats show, Azzi does a bit more across the board than Lou where Lou also struggles mightily on defense and prone to fouls. The hard truth is Lou is the 3rd best considered player on this team. Please say "hi" to the Mad Hatter for me in your world though.

 

[LwrcasefaN]

I live in the real world where rankings and national perception exist. As Azzi was and still is on the National POY radar, realistically, only Aaliyah and Azzi will get consideration. As the stats show, Azzi does a bit more across the board than Lou where Lou also struggles mightily on defense and prone to fouls. The hard truth is Lou is the 3rd best considered player on this team. Please say "hi" to the Mad Hatter for me in your world though.

I live in the fair consideration world and as best I can keep in mind..."early January". So is Boston an AA? Rickea Jackson? Mackayla Timpson? Jordan Horston? If you have rankings, what's the point of perception?

 

[bballnut90]

She's not the top scorer because the team is balanced. Her role on the team is to score. How many guards are shooting over 50%? A handful. And you won't find many more efficient. If you're going to 'consider or talk about Celeste Taylor, Zia Cooke, Jordan Horston (turnover machine, but IMO an AA)..., then I don't see how you can leave Lou out of the conversation. To me...consistency matters. I haven't even seen Rickea Jackson's name mentioned here....not to say it wasn't. How about Brea Beale? Sometimes you're the highest scorer on a bad team. Sometimes you're the average scorer on a great team. I'm playing devil's advocate to an extent. I know there are many factors to consider and that the reality is that there aren't enough "spots" to recognize all the elite talent.

I haven't heard anyone put Celeste Taylor's name in the hat for AA. Cooke has been talked about ad nauseam, most here feel she isn't deserving to be in consideration outside of SC fans. Horston is not a turnover machine this year--she's averaging 2 TO per game which is slightly less per game than Lou Lopez Senechal. Horston's numbers are strong across the board and her efficiency is good too. I'd also suggest looking at stats before making such claims. Brea Beale is on no one's radar for AA (and she shouldn't be averaging 5 points and 4 rebounds). LLS is a good scorer and filling her role extremely well for UCONN, but aside from scoring she doesn't thrive in any other area, and IMO she isn't an All American despite being a great pickup for the Huskies this year.

 

[LwrcasefaN]

I haven't heard anyone put Celeste Taylor's name in the hat for AA. Cooke has been talked about ad nauseam, most here feel she isn't deserving to be in consideration outside of SC fans. Horston is not a turnover machine this year--she's averaging 2 TO per game which is slightly less per game than Lou Lopez Senechal. Horston's numbers are strong across the board and her efficiency is good too. I'd also suggest looking at stats before making such claims. Brea Beale is on no one's radar for AA (and she shouldn't be averaging 5 points and 4 rebounds). LLS is a good scorer and filling her role extremely well for UCONN, but aside from scoring she doesn't thrive in any other area, and IMO she isn't an All American despite being a great pickup for the Huskies this year.

I think you should read what I wrote. And when Horston was averaging almost TOS last year...she was in every AA conversation...for other reasons. Stats don't mean everything...and that's part of my point. You can trust me or read all the posts and Taylor has been mentioned.

 

[bballnut90]

I think you should read what I wrote. And when Horston was averaging almost TOS last year...she was in every AA conversation...for other reasons. Stats don't mean everything...and that's part of my point. You can trust me or read all the posts and Taylor has been mentioned.

Last year at this point Horston was the clear standout for Tennessee who was top 5 in the country at the time. That alone deserves merit, even though she was wildly inefficient, she still had big all around stats, averaging 16/9/4.5 assists.

Regardless though of stats, what specifically about LLS makes you think she's an All American this year? To me she's an efficient scorer for UCONN who fills her role well but doesn't do a lot on the court besides make shots. I need more from a player if they're going to be an All American, or they need to be a team's go to player if their one trick is scoring the ball. I see her as an elite level role player in UCONN's offense, where Edwards is a true All American candidate and Fudd is too when healthy.

 

[LwrcasefaN]

Last year at this point Horston was the clear standout for Tennessee who was top 5 in the country at the time. That alone deserves merit, even though she was wildly inefficient, though still had big all around stats, too, averaging 16/9/4.5 assists.

Regardless though of stats, what specifically about LLS makes you think she's an All American this year? To me she's an efficient scorer for UCONN who fills her role well but doesn't do a lot on the court besides make shots. I need more from a player if they're going to be an All American, or they need to be a team's go to player if their one trick is scoring the ball. I see her as an elite level role player in UCONN's offense, where Edwards is a true All American candidate and Fudd is too when healthy.

She hasn't been a go-to? What was I thinking? She's leading the team in scoring (not including Fudd's 8 games). Shoots 51% from 3 and 50% overall. And is a 97% FT shooter. I'm guessing there may be no UCONN shooting guard to have these numbers. Maybe KML? And Fudd will probably get there. So...she exceeds my definition of a role player. In a blind test...who wouldn't ask...who is that? And again...you have to consider the team. In all the major statistical categories...NO UCONN player is the leader in more than one. No UCONN shooting guard is a big rebounder. And I'm not just advocating for Senechal, but many other players who are overlooked...Fair at Syracuse, Endiya Rogers at Oregon, Van Lith at Louisville, or even a Taina Mair at Boston College. There's parity in the game and there should be parity in examining possible candidates. That's all I'm saying.

 

[TheFarmFan]

She hasn't been a go-to? What was I thinking? She's leading the team in scoring (not including Fudd's 8 games). Shoots 51% from 3 and 50% overall. And is a 97% FT shooter. I'm guessing there may be no UCONN shooting guard to have these numbers. Maybe KML? And Fudd will probably get there. So...she exceeds my definition of a role player. In a blind test...who wouldn't ask...who is that? And again...you have to consider the team. In all the major statistical categories...NO UCONN player is the leader in more than one. No UCONN shooting guard is a big rebounder. And I'm not just advocating for Senechal, but many other players who are overlooked...Fair at Syracuse, Endiya Rogers at Oregon, Van Lith at Louisville, or even a Taina Mair at Boston College. There's parity in the game and there should be parity in examining possible candidates. That's all I'm saying.

I appreciate good homerism as much as the next guy, but Lou is tied for 73rd for D1 players in both PPG and FG%, and 39th for 3PTers made. Those are great stats, to be sure, but they are not, on their face, A-A-worthy. And as others have pointed out, the intangibles hurt rather than help her case (unlike Zia Cooke, whom I think is among the best at all the things that don't shot up in a stat sheet).

I'd say focus your fire power on advocating for Edwards's candidacy. She is legitimately sniffing at A-A consideration, which is all the more impressive given she's a Canadian!

 

[bballnut90]

She hasn't been a go-to? What was I thinking? She's leading the team in scoring (not including Fudd's 8 games). Shoots 51% from 3 and 50% overall. And is a 97% FT shooter. I'm guessing there may be no UCONN shooting guard to have these numbers. Maybe KML? And Fudd will probably get there. So...she exceeds my definition of a role player. In a blind test...who wouldn't ask...who is that? And again...you have to consider the team. In all the major statistical categories...NO UCONN player is the leader in more than one. No UCONN shooting guard is a big rebounder. And I'm not just advocating for Senechal, but many other players who are overlooked...Fair at Syracuse, Endiya Rogers at Oregon, Van Lith at Louisville, or even a Taina Mair at Boston College. There's parity in the game and there should be parity in examining possible candidates. That's all I'm saying.

I’m all for parity, I just don’t see compelling arguments for LLS or the players you listed. I’ll ask again though, aside from efficient shooting numbers, what is it about LLS’s game that makes you think she’s AA worthy this season?

 

[LwrcasefaN]

I’m all for parity, I just don’t see compelling arguments for LLS or the players you listed. I’ll ask again though, aside from efficient shooting numbers, what is it about LLS’s game that makes you think she’s AA worthy this season?

I answered that question...including context.

 

[Bone Dog]

Assuming no further injury disruptions and a season that continues along current trajectories, Azzi and Aaliyah are obvious contenders. There's no rule against having two first team AAs at the same school. There will surely be other contenders from other schools. When we win the NC, having had 2 AAs will all make sense to everyone.

 

[cancontent]

I appreciate good homerism as much as the next guy, but Lou is tied for 73rd for D1 players in both PPG and FG%, and 39th for 3PTers made. Those are great stats, to be sure, but they are not, on their face, A-A-worthy. And as others have pointed out, the intangibles hurt rather than help her case (unlike Zia Cooke, whom I think is among the best at all the things that don't shot up in a stat sheet).

I'd say focus your fire power on advocating for Edwards's candidacy. She is legitimately sniffing at A-A consideration, which is all the more impressive given she's a Canadian!

Hopefully they don't factor an exchange rate when counting votes. That could hurt based on current rates

 

[cancontent]

@LwrcasefaN - I don't see where you're argument puts Lopez-Senechal ahead of someone like Horston at the moment. Your arguments has been primarily about scoring. There's more to being an All-American than just that.

When I look at Horston's stats versus Lopez-Senechal's, Senechal only advantage is that she has a better FG and FT percentage. They close in scoring averages, so that's a wash.

If we're talking balanced, there's something to be said about being an all-around player which is where Horston has the advantage over Lopez-Senechal because she's doing better in rebounds, assists and steals. And it's been seen many times in games where she's a defensive liability. That has to be taken into account.


Horston's stats: Jordan Horston Stats, News, Bio | ESPN

Lopez-Senechal's stats: Lou Lopez Senechal Stats, News, Bio | ESPN

 

[ucbart]

I feel like if SC goes undefeated or at the very least goes wire to wire as #1 they I'll be shocked if they don't get someone on 1st team. Team success matters a lot in these awards and historically I don't think there's ever been a team that didn't get a first team recipient when they've gone undefeated or #1 wire to wire. SC should (and likely will) reap the benefit of it, and there's no question that it'd be Aliyah Boston over Cooke at this juncture.

There is ZERO way that Alliyah Boston won't be a 1st Team AA and NPOY. ESPN has spent the last three seasons making her a generational talent and talking about her with drool coming out of their mouths. The Alliyah hype machine will start very soon in the way of, "she is getting triple teamed, still averaging a double-double, and her team is #1."

And the chorus of people will start with Debbie Antonelli, Monica McNutt, Courney Lyle, Carolyn Peck, and Adraya Carter.

Does she deserve POY this season? No. Will she be it? Yes

As for my vote-I'm not not so sure Maddy Siegrist isn't the NPOY.

 

[LwrcasefaN]

@LwrcasefaN - I don't see where you're argument puts Lopez-Senechal ahead of someone like Horston at the moment. Your arguments has been primarily about scoring. There's more to being an All-American than just that.

When I look at Horston's stats versus Lopez-Senechal's, Senechal only advantage is that she has a better FG and FT percentage. They close in scoring averages, so that's a wash.

If we're talking balanced, there's something to be said about being an all-around player which is where Horston has the advantage over Lopez-Senechal because she's doing better in rebounds, assists and steals. And it's been seen many times in games where she's a defensive liability. That has to be taken into account.


Horston's stats: Jordan Horston Stats, News, Bio | ESPN
View attachment 83004

Lopez-Senechal's stats: Lou Lopez Senechal Stats, News, Bio | ESPN
View attachment 83005

I think the glaring difference is that all AA aren't required to be EVERYTHING for their team. That doesn't mean you aren't an AA. You know the knock on LSU is that they played a cupcake schedule. And that's a fair question. I also think it's a fair question to not overlook people because they play on teams that don't require them to do everything. People talk about numbers and "intangibles", but abandon context. I choose not to do so.

 

[The deacon]

There is ZERO way that Alliyah Boston won't be a 1st Team AA and NPOY. ESPN has spent the last three seasons making her a generational talent and talking about her with drool coming out of their mouths. The Alliyah hype machine will start very soon in the way of, "she is getting triple teamed, still averaging a double-double, and her team is #1."

And the chorus of people will start with Debbie Antonelli, Monica McNutt, Courney Lyle, Carolyn Peck, and Adraya Carter.

Does she deserve POY this season? No. Will she be it? Yes

As for my vote-I'm not not so sure Maddy Siegrist isn't the NPOY.

Agreed re Aliyah, who isn't at the double-double level, close with 9.4 rebounds per.

And I'm glad to see someone give Maddy Siegrist her due. I'd possibly have her second in my voting behind Caitlin Clark.

 

[cancontent]

I think the glaring difference is that all AA aren't required to be EVERYTHING for their team. That doesn't mean you aren't an AA. You know the knock on LSU is that they played a cupcake schedule. And that's a fair question. I also think it's a fair question to not overlook people because they play on teams that don't require them to do everything. People talk about numbers and "intangibles", but abandon context. I choose not to do so.

You keep coming back to context and I don't see the connection to your point as most of them have come across as anecdotal. Yes, an AA doesn't have to do everything, but Lopez-Senechal's strengths is scoring, not much else from what I've watched all season.

What exactly are Lopez-Senechal's intangibles that we're missing when compared to players you've noted in previous examples? I would think Horston's ability to take her team on her back to win a game an intangible. I would see the fact that Boston being double and triple teamed as an intangible. What am I missing?

 

[LwrcasefaN]

You keep coming back to context and I don't see the connection to your point as most of them have come across as anecdotal. Yes, an AA doesn't have to do everything, but Lopez-Senechal's strengths is scoring, not much else from what I've watched all season.

What exactly are Lopez-Senechal's intangibles that we're missing when compared to players you've noted in previous examples? I would think Horston's ability to take her team on her back to win a game an intangible. I would see the fact that Boston being double and triple teamed as an intangible. What am I missing?

Fair point. Context. She's played 16 games...all of them. Half of them where she has been at the top of the scouting reports because she was the primary perimeter scorer due to injuries to Fudd, Ducharme and Beckers. And this was against a tough non-conference schedule. I know what the expectations were for her coming in and it certainly wasn't leading UCONN in scoring, but, that's what she has done....consistently. So, maybe she was supposed to be a role player, but, she has exceeded that. I think UCONN is barely a .500 team if she didn't step up. She's not just a good shooter, but a clutch shooter. I think Geno once said something to the effect that if you want to lead the nation in statistics, you probably shouldn't come to UCONN. And while I started my advocacy by mentioning Lou, it really is just a call to see the entire picture....not just numbers...and vice versa. I keep hearing that she's foul-prone. Is she?
I wouldn't say so. I just think that's the impression because she's a vital piece. With all the injuries...where was the perimeter threat. Just sharing my thought process. It's not the gospel nor is anyone else's.

 

[cancontent]

Fair point. Context. She's played 16 games...all of them. Half of them where she has been at the top of the scouting reports because she was the primary perimeter scorer due to injuries to Fudd, Ducharme and Beckers. And this was against a tough non-conference schedule. I know what the expectations were for her coming in and it certainly wasn't leading UCONN in scoring, but, that's what she has done....consistently. So, maybe she was supposed to be a role player, but, she has exceeded that. I think UCONN is barely a .500 team if she didn't step up. She's not just a good shooter, but a clutch shooter. I think Geno once said something to the effect that if you want to lead the nation in statistics, you probably shouldn't come to UCONN. And while I started my advocacy by mentioning Lou, it really is just a call to see the entire picture....not just numbers...and vice versa. I keep hearing that she's foul-prone. Is she?
I wouldn't say so. I just think that's the impression because she's a vital piece. With all the injuries...where was the perimeter threat. Just sharing my thought process. It's not the gospel nor is anyone else's.

This was what I wasn't getting from your previous comments. Thank you.

All these are good points, however a lot of the players being considered as AA all have intangibles along with their stats. For example, Horston, Boston, Mikesell, Holmes, Czinano, Pili, Williams (Oklahoma), and Kiser, are all at the top of the list of scouting reports. Not all of them have eye popping stats but they're doing lots of different things that have them in consideration. And with majority, if not all of them, they have a presence defensively as well.

Lopez-Senechal's foul average may not indicate it, but she is a defensive liability from majority of the UConn games I've watched. They've had to keep her on the bench to avoid further foul trouble due to their depleted bench which nullifies the clutch shooting she provides. In my opinion, that's foul prone because she's not on the court when the team needs her. Contrast that with Aaliyah from last year where that was her issue impacting her ability to affect games. This season, she's turned it around which has been very beneficial because she can play significant minutes.

 

[GoChips20]

I’m a little surprised we’re having this debate for this long. Lopez-Senechal is a nice player and has boosted UConn’s upside this year but she is neither a realistic nor worthy contender for an All-American team.

I think Ta’Niya Latson is a borderline first-teamer at this point. 25ppg on 50% shooting with 5 rebounds and 3 assists as a freshman GUARD is insane.

 

[DefenseBB]

Ok, a mea culpa here, I did watch with high interest my 9th Stanford game last night against UCLA and while Stanford ultimately prevailed in the fourth by sheer domination, I have to say while still correct that Haley Jones is an abysmal outside shooter (last night 0-4 and 6-18), she does "stir that Cardinal drink" by doing a little of everything-16 point, 12 reb, 6 assists. Haley had to cover Charisma Osborne and did a phenomenal job containing her to 4-18 shooting. I will 100% agree with @TheFarmFan she is 1st team AA at this point. Her shooting is a problem when they will face the handful of elite teams in the NCAAT, I mean 3-26 from 3-point land is truly terrible and for all the inside game she has to only be 94-205 (45%) is also not great.

If Brink can ever manage to stay out of foul trouble and stay on the floor for significant minutes, they would not have any close PAC12 games. I am just dumbfounded by the silly fouls she commits early in big games when her team needs her. She did shine in the 4th quarter though.

 

[Gamecockfan77]

After watching SCar/Georgia game and looking at Boston's stats coming into the game, I don't think she is playing like first team AA right now. I'd move Edwards up to first team

I'm not sure there is a coach in the country who would take anyone other than Boston as their first pick at center if they weren't allowed to draft their own player.

That makes Boston an obvious first team AA.

If you wanted to make it a choice between Boston and Reese for whatever reason then you could entertain the discussion (this is SEC POY debate and pretty valid), but Edwards is just a foolish suggestion unless all you've ever seen is a stat line and you can't comprehend minutes per game.

 

[cancontent]

I'm not sure there is a coach in the country who would take anyone other than Boston as their first pick at center if they weren't allowed to draft their own player.

That makes Boston an obvious first team AA.

If you wanted to make it a choice between Boston and Reese for whatever reason then you could entertain the discussion (this is SEC POY debate and pretty valid), but Edwards is just a foolish suggestion unless all you've ever seen is a stat line and you can't comprehend minutes per game.

I'm not one who thinks Boston is less than a first team consideration, but doesn't Edwards deserve consideration of being a first team AA as well? If not, why from your perspective? There are a lot of players who are worthy of consideration and based off her play, I would think she's part of that group.