Early January All-American Considerations

[ucbart]

I feel like if SC goes undefeated or at the very least goes wire to wire as #1 they I'll be shocked if they don't get someone on 1st team. Team success matters a lot in these awards and historically I don't think there's ever been a team that didn't get a first team recipient when they've gone undefeated or #1 wire to wire. SC should (and likely will) reap the benefit of it, and there's no question that it'd be Aliyah Boston over Cooke at this juncture.

There is ZERO way that Alliyah Boston won't be a 1st Team AA and NPOY. ESPN has spent the last three seasons making her a generational talent and talking about her with drool coming out of their mouths. The Alliyah hype machine will start very soon in the way of, "she is getting triple teamed, still averaging a double-double, and her team is #1."

And the chorus of people will start with Debbie Antonelli, Monica McNutt, Courney Lyle, Carolyn Peck, and Adraya Carter.

Does she deserve POY this season? No. Will she be it? Yes

As for my vote-I'm not not so sure Maddy Siegrist isn't the NPOY.

 

[LwrcasefaN]

@LwrcasefaN - I don't see where you're argument puts Lopez-Senechal ahead of someone like Horston at the moment. Your arguments has been primarily about scoring. There's more to being an All-American than just that.

When I look at Horston's stats versus Lopez-Senechal's, Senechal only advantage is that she has a better FG and FT percentage. They close in scoring averages, so that's a wash.

If we're talking balanced, there's something to be said about being an all-around player which is where Horston has the advantage over Lopez-Senechal because she's doing better in rebounds, assists and steals. And it's been seen many times in games where she's a defensive liability. That has to be taken into account.


Horston's stats: Jordan Horston Stats, News, Bio | ESPN
View attachment 83004

Lopez-Senechal's stats: Lou Lopez Senechal Stats, News, Bio | ESPN
View attachment 83005

I think the glaring difference is that all AA aren't required to be EVERYTHING for their team. That doesn't mean you aren't an AA. You know the knock on LSU is that they played a cupcake schedule. And that's a fair question. I also think it's a fair question to not overlook people because they play on teams that don't require them to do everything. People talk about numbers and "intangibles", but abandon context. I choose not to do so.

 

[The deacon]

There is ZERO way that Alliyah Boston won't be a 1st Team AA and NPOY. ESPN has spent the last three seasons making her a generational talent and talking about her with drool coming out of their mouths. The Alliyah hype machine will start very soon in the way of, "she is getting triple teamed, still averaging a double-double, and her team is #1."

And the chorus of people will start with Debbie Antonelli, Monica McNutt, Courney Lyle, Carolyn Peck, and Adraya Carter.

Does she deserve POY this season? No. Will she be it? Yes

As for my vote-I'm not not so sure Maddy Siegrist isn't the NPOY.

Agreed re Aliyah, who isn't at the double-double level, close with 9.4 rebounds per.

And I'm glad to see someone give Maddy Siegrist her due. I'd possibly have her second in my voting behind Caitlin Clark.

 

[cancontent]

I think the glaring difference is that all AA aren't required to be EVERYTHING for their team. That doesn't mean you aren't an AA. You know the knock on LSU is that they played a cupcake schedule. And that's a fair question. I also think it's a fair question to not overlook people because they play on teams that don't require them to do everything. People talk about numbers and "intangibles", but abandon context. I choose not to do so.

You keep coming back to context and I don't see the connection to your point as most of them have come across as anecdotal. Yes, an AA doesn't have to do everything, but Lopez-Senechal's strengths is scoring, not much else from what I've watched all season.

What exactly are Lopez-Senechal's intangibles that we're missing when compared to players you've noted in previous examples? I would think Horston's ability to take her team on her back to win a game an intangible. I would see the fact that Boston being double and triple teamed as an intangible. What am I missing?

 

[LwrcasefaN]

You keep coming back to context and I don't see the connection to your point as most of them have come across as anecdotal. Yes, an AA doesn't have to do everything, but Lopez-Senechal's strengths is scoring, not much else from what I've watched all season.

What exactly are Lopez-Senechal's intangibles that we're missing when compared to players you've noted in previous examples? I would think Horston's ability to take her team on her back to win a game an intangible. I would see the fact that Boston being double and triple teamed as an intangible. What am I missing?

Fair point. Context. She's played 16 games...all of them. Half of them where she has been at the top of the scouting reports because she was the primary perimeter scorer due to injuries to Fudd, Ducharme and Beckers. And this was against a tough non-conference schedule. I know what the expectations were for her coming in and it certainly wasn't leading UCONN in scoring, but, that's what she has done....consistently. So, maybe she was supposed to be a role player, but, she has exceeded that. I think UCONN is barely a .500 team if she didn't step up. She's not just a good shooter, but a clutch shooter. I think Geno once said something to the effect that if you want to lead the nation in statistics, you probably shouldn't come to UCONN. And while I started my advocacy by mentioning Lou, it really is just a call to see the entire picture....not just numbers...and vice versa. I keep hearing that she's foul-prone. Is she?
I wouldn't say so. I just think that's the impression because she's a vital piece. With all the injuries...where was the perimeter threat. Just sharing my thought process. It's not the gospel nor is anyone else's.

 

[cancontent]

Fair point. Context. She's played 16 games...all of them. Half of them where she has been at the top of the scouting reports because she was the primary perimeter scorer due to injuries to Fudd, Ducharme and Beckers. And this was against a tough non-conference schedule. I know what the expectations were for her coming in and it certainly wasn't leading UCONN in scoring, but, that's what she has done....consistently. So, maybe she was supposed to be a role player, but, she has exceeded that. I think UCONN is barely a .500 team if she didn't step up. She's not just a good shooter, but a clutch shooter. I think Geno once said something to the effect that if you want to lead the nation in statistics, you probably shouldn't come to UCONN. And while I started my advocacy by mentioning Lou, it really is just a call to see the entire picture....not just numbers...and vice versa. I keep hearing that she's foul-prone. Is she?
I wouldn't say so. I just think that's the impression because she's a vital piece. With all the injuries...where was the perimeter threat. Just sharing my thought process. It's not the gospel nor is anyone else's.

This was what I wasn't getting from your previous comments. Thank you.

All these are good points, however a lot of the players being considered as AA all have intangibles along with their stats. For example, Horston, Boston, Mikesell, Holmes, Czinano, Pili, Williams (Oklahoma), and Kiser, are all at the top of the list of scouting reports. Not all of them have eye popping stats but they're doing lots of different things that have them in consideration. And with majority, if not all of them, they have a presence defensively as well.

Lopez-Senechal's foul average may not indicate it, but she is a defensive liability from majority of the UConn games I've watched. They've had to keep her on the bench to avoid further foul trouble due to their depleted bench which nullifies the clutch shooting she provides. In my opinion, that's foul prone because she's not on the court when the team needs her. Contrast that with Aaliyah from last year where that was her issue impacting her ability to affect games. This season, she's turned it around which has been very beneficial because she can play significant minutes.

 

[GoChips20]

I’m a little surprised we’re having this debate for this long. Lopez-Senechal is a nice player and has boosted UConn’s upside this year but she is neither a realistic nor worthy contender for an All-American team.

I think Ta’Niya Latson is a borderline first-teamer at this point. 25ppg on 50% shooting with 5 rebounds and 3 assists as a freshman GUARD is insane.

 

[DefenseBB]

Ok, a mea culpa here, I did watch with high interest my 9th Stanford game last night against UCLA and while Stanford ultimately prevailed in the fourth by sheer domination, I have to say while still correct that Haley Jones is an abysmal outside shooter (last night 0-4 and 6-18), she does "stir that Cardinal drink" by doing a little of everything-16 point, 12 reb, 6 assists. Haley had to cover Charisma Osborne and did a phenomenal job containing her to 4-18 shooting. I will 100% agree with @TheFarmFan she is 1st team AA at this point. Her shooting is a problem when they will face the handful of elite teams in the NCAAT, I mean 3-26 from 3-point land is truly terrible and for all the inside game she has to only be 94-205 (45%) is also not great.

If Brink can ever manage to stay out of foul trouble and stay on the floor for significant minutes, they would not have any close PAC12 games. I am just dumbfounded by the silly fouls she commits early in big games when her team needs her. She did shine in the 4th quarter though.

 

[Gamecockfan77]

After watching SCar/Georgia game and looking at Boston's stats coming into the game, I don't think she is playing like first team AA right now. I'd move Edwards up to first team

I'm not sure there is a coach in the country who would take anyone other than Boston as their first pick at center if they weren't allowed to draft their own player.

That makes Boston an obvious first team AA.

If you wanted to make it a choice between Boston and Reese for whatever reason then you could entertain the discussion (this is SEC POY debate and pretty valid), but Edwards is just a foolish suggestion unless all you've ever seen is a stat line and you can't comprehend minutes per game.

 

[cancontent]

I'm not sure there is a coach in the country who would take anyone other than Boston as their first pick at center if they weren't allowed to draft their own player.

That makes Boston an obvious first team AA.

If you wanted to make it a choice between Boston and Reese for whatever reason then you could entertain the discussion (this is SEC POY debate and pretty valid), but Edwards is just a foolish suggestion unless all you've ever seen is a stat line and you can't comprehend minutes per game.

I'm not one who thinks Boston is less than a first team consideration, but doesn't Edwards deserve consideration of being a first team AA as well? If not, why from your perspective? There are a lot of players who are worthy of consideration and based off her play, I would think she's part of that group.

 

[JstVisiting]

If you are taking Boston off this list you need to move Zia Cooke onto it. Teams are literally triple teaming Boston to the point of being ridiculous and Zia is taking advantage of it. If SC remains the #1 team in the country one of those will be on it.

Assume Dawn Staley is unanimous Coach of the Year for everyone in this thread. She's undefeated against a top 30 schedule without a single All American, first or second team.

Just a bunch of scrappy, overachieving gym rats!

 

[Gamecockfan77]

I'm not one who thinks Boston is less than a first team consideration, but doesn't Edwards deserve consideration of being a first team AA as well? If not, why from your perspective? There are a lot of players who are worthy of consideration and based off her play, I would think she's part of that group.

To me, it seems like Reese and Clark are near locks.

Boston seems like close to it but you never do know.

Not sure if that leaves sport for Edwards on first team.

 

[cancontent]

To me, it seems like Reese and Clark are near locks.

Boston seems like close to it but you never do know.

Not sure if that leaves sport for Edwards on first team.

I see three names in your reply. Unless, I missed/forgotten a previous post, who would be the other two ahead of Edwards?

 

[LwrcasefaN]

I'm not sure there is a coach in the country who would take anyone other than Boston as their first pick at center if they weren't allowed to draft their own player.

That makes Boston an obvious first team AA.

If you wanted to make it a choice between Boston and Reese for whatever reason then you could entertain the discussion (this is SEC POY debate and pretty valid), but Edwards is just a foolish suggestion unless all you've ever seen is a stat line and you can't comprehend minutes per game.

Wait. Now...granted this isn't exactly all science and math, but to say that Edwards as a selection amounts to being "foolish"...is foolish. I'm okay with anyone "feeling" Edwards wouldn't make their selections as 1st Team AA, but, if someone selected her as a 1st team AA...what argument(s) on the planet would support it being a foolish selection?

 

[LwrcasefaN]

I'm not sure there is a coach in the country who would take anyone other than Boston as their first pick at center if they weren't allowed to draft their own player.

That makes Boston an obvious first team AA.

If you wanted to make it a choice between Boston and Reese for whatever reason then you could entertain the discussion (this is SEC POY debate and pretty valid), but Edwards is just a foolish suggestion unless all you've ever seen is a stat line and you can't comprehend minutes per game.

BTW...I would pick Boston 1st in the WNBA draft, but that doesn't mean she's 1st team AA...THIS year. The draft is based more on a collection of work over multiple seasons. And...TBH..it is really an impossible task to pick 5 AAs out of a vast pool of talent. It's fun, but it's not realistic...for many reasons.

 

[GoChips20]

I’ll add to the debate. I think there’s a frontcourt player who should be a first-team All-American over both Boston and Edwards.

Mackenzie Holmes. Scoring more and shooting better than both. Leading a top-ten team night in and night out. Elite post defender also.

 

[cancontent]

I’ll add to the debate. I think there’s a frontcourt player who should be a first-team All-American over both Boston and Edwards.

Mackenzie Holmes. Scoring more and shooting better than both. Leading a top-ten team night in and night out. Elite post defender also.

Holmes definitely deserves to be in consideration. Man, a lot of good options this year.

 

[DefenseBB]

From the Efficiency stat perspective Holmes has 26.5 to Edwards 24.3 and Dorka's 24.5

For an edification point-Efficiency is "Points+rebounds+assists+blocks+steals-turnovers-missed field goals (field goals attempted minus field goals made)"

Basically, this credits all the positive efforts and debits all the negative ones (turnovers, missed shots).

MacKenzie Holmes has been wonderful this year with the only complaint being her assists to turnovers are a tad high. But the Efficiency score speaks for itself as she's 3rd among front court players with only Reese-36.8 and Siegrist-31.5 ahead of her.

 

[bballnut90]

Boston's ppg stats is not even in NCAA's top 200. AE is #81 and Lou is #86 in this NCAA summary.

I have never seen a first team AA's ppg is out of top 100 before.

NCAA College Women's Basketball DI current individual Stats | NCAA.com

Discover the current NCAA Division I Women's Basketball leaders in every stats category, as well as historic leaders.

www.ncaa.com

Haley Jones last year, Aliyah Boston 2 years ago, Lauren Cox 3 years ago. All first team all Americans with not top 100 ppg. Boston will be 1st team again this year barring something strange.

 

[Gamecockfan77]

I see three names in your reply. Unless, I missed/forgotten a previous post, who would be the other two ahead of Edwards?

Probably a guard for one spot and then a wing/combo forward for the other.

But possible.

 

[ucbart]

Welp:

Did I call it or what?

Mid-season is here and the Boston hype machine is ramping up:

1. She was named to the NCAA first 5 this past week.
2. She was named ESPN POW
3. A blatant travel was featured on Sportscenter's twitter.

I can almost guarantee that Sunday's studio crew will start incessantly yapping about her and why she should be NPOY, citing her dominance on both sides of the ball in women's basketball that we haven't seen since BG. LOL

 

[Kaizen]

I can almost guarantee that Sunday's studio crew will start incessantly yapping about her and why she should be NPOY, citing her dominance on both sides of the ball in women's basketball that we haven't seen since BG. LOL

ESPN's NPOY is Caitlin Clark .... not Boston

Women's college basketball 2023 midseason Final Four predictions, player of the year picks

Halfway through the women's college basketball season, the ACC is the best conference (but the SEC will have the most impact on the bracket) and Caitlin Clark might have the edge over Aliyah Boston.

www.espn.com

 

[visitingcock]

ESPN's NPOY is Caitlin Clark ....

Women's college basketball 2023 midseason Final Four predictions, player of the year picks

Halfway through the women's college basketball season, the ACC is the best conference (but the SEC will have the most impact on the bracket) and Caitlin Clark might have the edge over Aliyah Boston.

www.espn.com

Uhm, that says "might."

Is it for best annual performance by an individual? Or the best annual performance by the best player on a dominant team? Two schools of thought.

Is it for best performance on one side of the same, say offense, or is it the best balanced performance offensively AND defensively?

Best personality during interviews might have something to do with deciding between a small number of candidates. Good works in the community?

BTW I love that Clark not only has a high PPG average - she also dishes out A LOT of assists to her teammates!

 

[ucbart]

ESPN's NPOY is Caitlin Clark .... not Boston

Women's college basketball 2023 midseason Final Four predictions, player of the year picks

Halfway through the women's college basketball season, the ACC is the best conference (but the SEC will have the most impact on the bracket) and Caitlin Clark might have the edge over Aliyah Boston.

www.espn.com

I realize this. But that's not who they want to give the award to, they just have to....right now. But the Boston hype machine, led by ESPN will gain speed quickly.

 

[SCspur]

I realize this. But that's not who they want to give the award to, they just have to....right now. But the Boston hype machine, led by ESPN will gain speed quickly.

When you’re the best player on the best team you shouldn’t be praised?

 

[Gamecockfan77]

If you swapped Boston and Clark, Iowa would improve imo.

 

[hoopsnloops32]

If you swapped Boston and Clark, Iowa would improve imo.

How so? Boston doesn’t fit into Iowas 3 point focused system. Their defense would still bad and unless Boston could replace the points per game of Clark I don’t see how a post with no shooting ability would be an improvement over the best guard in the country right now.

I do think Boston would look better on a team like Iowas because teams couldn’t double and triple team her.

 

[LwrcasefaN]

If you swapped Boston and Clark, Iowa would improve imo.

If Clark stopped with all the excessive 3s...Iowa would improve. In fact, if she ceded some of her attempts to other perimeter players, it would make them more difficult to defend. Clark is elite (scoring-wise), but the reality is that there are at least 3 other Iowa guards (spectators) that shoot better field goal percentages...and even from 3-point range. The crowd likes her "logo 3s", but how many really go in? She airmails at least 2 a game. Iowa's issue isn't at the center. Czinano is not chopped liver. SC needs a Clark more than Iowa needs Boston.

 

[The deacon]

If Clark stopped with all the excessive 3s...Iowa would improve. In fact, if she ceded some of her attempts to other perimeter players, it would make them more difficult to defend. Clark is elite (scoring-wise), but the reality is that there are at least 3 other Iowa guards (spectators) that shoot better field goal percentages...and even from 3-point range. The crowd likes her "logo 3s", but how many really go in? She airmails at least 2 a game. Iowa's issue isn't at the center. Czinano is not chopped liver. SC needs a Clark more than Iowa needs Boston.

If you notice that as Iowa's offense and shooting has generally improved as the season has progressed, Caitlin has taken less threes. For her last seven games, dating back to Christmas, she's shooting 21 of 48 from outside the arc, a nearly 44 percent rate.

I'll also opine that those other Hawkeyes who have 40+ percentages, Warnock, Martin and Davis, can all thank their lucky stars, and probably do, that they have such open looks because defenses always focus on Clark. I'd bet that if Caitlin had plenty of time to shoot wide-open threes, she'd hit a higher percentage, too.

As for Czinano, I'm a fan, but she also should know well that she's such an impact player because Clark regularly delivers on-the-money passes to her in the paint.

As for a Boston-for-Clark swap, wow! My first question would be how well would coaches Staley and Bruder be able to adapt? I think it'd be easier for the Gamecocks because it has players such as Cardoso, if not the overall skill level of Aliyah but darned good in the post. Nobody else on Iowa can approach what Caitlin does for the Hawkeyes.

 

[LwrcasefaN]

If you notice that as Iowa's offense and shooting has generally improved as the season has progressed, Caitlin has taken less threes. For her last seven games, dating back to Christmas, she's shooting 21 of 48 from outside the arc, a nearly 44 percent rate.

I'll also opine that those other Hawkeyes who have 40+ percentages, Warnock, Martin and Davis, can all thank their lucky stars, and probably do, that they have such open looks because defenses always focus on Clark. I'd bet that if Caitlin had plenty of time to shoot wide-open threes, she'd hit a higher percentage, too.

As for Czinano, I'm a fan, but she also should know well that she's such an impact player because Clark regularly delivers on-the-money passes to her in the paint.

As for a Boston-for-Clark swap, wow! My first question would be how well would coaches Staley and Bruder be able to adapt? I think it'd be easier for the Gamecocks because it has players such as Cardoso, if not the overall skill level of Aliyah but darned good in the post. Nobody else on Iowa can approach what Caitlin does for the Hawkeyes.

Honestly, I haven't closely watched trending when it comes to Clark. Just my feel from watching their games. In this swap...I think the adjustment would fall on the players...more so Clark. She wouldn't have to do everything. I don't know who coaches the Iowa posts, but they are very good. Having said that...not sure they would make any noticeable improvement to Boston's skills.

Clark is good...not debating that, but her ball dominance and shot selection is part of the reason she gets double and triple teamed and no doubt impacts her shooting percentages. She's their point guard so I would expect her to find those open shooters. It would relieve some of the pressure on herself. I'm simply a firm believer that a team with four or five consistent scoring threats... that command the defense's attention...elevates that team. And it's good that she's shooting less 3s because she has no problem getting to the rim for a higher percentage shot. And on many of those drives...she gets fouled, and it places pressure on the defense. I do believe there's such a thing as overuse of players and/or their skills when it's not actually necessary. Credit to Clark that she isn't burnt out.