Drummond, Rudy Gay, etc.. should have stayed in college

[UCHuskies08]

Their bank accounts disagree with you

 

[Reno]

Yep, 10-15 years difference for players that crossed paths in the NBA is exactly like comparing baseball in the early 1920's to baseball in the 90's especially because the talent pools of the leagues changed similarly and Barry Bonds 2nd iteration was fueled by steroids. Wait, actually they are nothing alike.

Pre-Bird/Magic era, Moses Malone never went to college and was very successful however Darryl Dawkins and Sean Kemp did not and very arguably underacheived in terms of their careers and didn't win any championships. Kemp's Sonics did make the finals once but they lost to Jordan's Bulls who won solely because Jordan played 3 years in college

Michael Jordan became who he was because he did not skip any steps. He was NOT annointed a superstar while still in high school like LeBron James was and by the time Jordan got to the NBA he was a much more polished product. He wasn't even the #1 pick (3) after 3 years of college so why would anyone ever imagine that he could have gone pro out of high school?! And even then it took Jordan quite a few years for him to hone his game and for the Bulls to put together championship pieces (even though in the 84 Olympics Jordan demonstrated that his talent was all NBA ready). So part of the non-basketball talent argument is that LeBron James doesn't put on the stupid "decision" event if he'd gone to college and Dwight Howard doesn't spend 2yrs vascilating over what he wants to do and where he wants to play. Basketball wise maybe each of them would have more post-moves and LeBron would have learned to close games at an intermediate level giving him confidence to do it in the NBA. LeBron is great, but part of the frustration with him and his otherworldly skillset is he really should be winning multiple championships and thus far he's not. I'm rooting for Durant just cuz he has at least one year of college.

I see. I hadn't realized you were disregarding logic and living in a fantasy world. Carry on.

 

[Reno]

I also enjoy that you buy into the myth that Michael Jordan wasn't a top recruit out of high school. Like UNC was just letting any guy come play for them.

 

[aceboon]

He moves off the ball fairly well, better than most coming into the NBA.

Agreed, I don't know how anyone could've watched him his freshman year and think Jeremy can't play off the ball. The reason it didn't look as fluid last year is because our bigs couldn't set a screen to save their life and we didn't have the guards who could attract a defense like Kemba could so Jeremy could slide into free areas.

 

[Dogdeacon]

I also enjoy that you buy into the myth that Michael Jordan wasn't a top recruit out of high school. Like UNC was just letting any guy come play for them.

Great rebuttal, I write that Jordan wouldn't have been a top NBA draft pick out of high school and you conclude that I bought into some myth that you just made up that MJ (did you ever see him play?) wasn't a 'top recruit' whatever that vague statement means. I don't know or care what Jordan was ranked out of high school but I do know that he set the scoring record in the McD's game that stood until some idiot named Bender broke it and rode that fame (by besting the immortal Jordan) into being a lottery pick right out of high school and an absolute crap NBA career b/c he didn't go to college.

P.S. Riddle me this batman, if Jordan was so highly touted why didn't he go hardship after his frosh or sophomore years? He went when his GAME was ready for the next level which is where the rubber of reality meets your fantasy stats & salary based evaluations of when and why basketball players should go pro. Carry on

 

[freescooter]

I hated Steve Kerr when he played, but I agree with just about everything he says in this piece. From the NBA perspective, I'd favor raising the age to 21 or 22. From the NCAA perspective, I'd favor making basketball scholarships unusable until the original recipient's class has graduated except in certian limited situations. Better for th eplayers. Better for the college game. And better for the pro game. And as Kerr says, and I've said right along, if you don't or can't go to college, play in th e d-league or overseas.

 

[msgordon]

all youre doing is using a ridiculous amount of hindsight and using results to shape your arguments. darryl dawkins and shawn kemp were physical freaks who were NBA ready and had productive careers, but youre holding them to a higher standard because they came out of high school. you argue that only lebron dwight kobe KG were NBA ready out of high school...wow dude, certainly tough to say that now after theyre already multiple time first teamers. if gerald green were dunking on fools and dropping 25 a game right now youd probably be throwing him on that list. "some clown named jonathan bender"...as if you had any way to differentiate between Bender and KG before you had a chance to evaluate their NBA careers

 

[freescooter]

If going to college is essential for elite athletic development why have ZERO of the best soccer players in the world gone to college? Training in a full time professional setting is a much better way to become a star athlete than having to go to school. The problem is that too often there is not a lot of teaching being done in the professional setting these day, because there is a lack of incentive to do so. In Europe, if you make a player a star you can sell his rights for millions of dollars, the same incentives do not exist here.

Most of those guys start out in what is effectively the minor leagues, not unlike what happens in baseball in this country or for the most part, hockey in Canada. They learn the game as they move up through the system. And since colleges don't sponsor teams as they do here, it is sort of a silly argument isn't it? there isn't a big Universidad de Salamanca-Universidad de Madrid game every year, and there isn't an NCAA tournament of Italy...If the NBA were willing to serioulsy invest in a developmental league, that approach could probably replace the current one. But as Kerr points out, why should they when the colleges are willing to do it for them.

 

[progrocks]

From a cost stand point this works great for the NBA, the college subsidize their training costs and the colleges get to use free labor and make money from their end. WIN/WIN!!! (Lose for the players, but student athletes dont matter to anyone)

 

[Dogdeacon]

all youre doing is using a ridiculous amount of hindsight and using results to shape your arguments. darryl dawkins and shawn kemp were physical freaks who were NBA ready and had productive careers, but youre holding them to a higher standard because they came out of high school. you argue that only lebron dwight kobe KG were NBA ready out of high school...wow dude, certainly tough to say that now after theyre already multiple time first teamers. if gerald green were dunking on fools and dropping 25 a game right now youd probably be throwing him on that list. "some clown named jonathan bender"...as if you had any way to differentiate between Bender and KG before you had a chance to evaluate their NBA careers

Its a gamble, namely the draft is a gamble. The point is the likelihood of bust is higher with high school kids vs college because the sample size is greater for college and the maturity etc.... READ THE FREAKIN ARTICLE. Every pro sports draft is a crapshoot and inexact science for a multitude of reasons not the least of which is we are dealing with humans. I think you have an increased likelihood that a player is what you project him to be after 2-3 years of college, but its impossible to quantify. For example how would you compare JJ Hickson to JaVale McGee (drafted back-to-back in teens recently)? I don't know but I do strongly believe that both are underachieving possible knuckleheads (definite McGee) who would be better NBA players had they stayed in school longer. Point is there are misses and hits on each side but the probability of knowing what you are going to get goes up the bigger the sample size.

Look at baseball. Why do teams keep players in the minor leagues until they are absolutely ready to succeed at MLB level? Its absolute part of the fabric of that sport that you don't want to bring a guy up to soon. Teams assidously avoid rushing players into the show. Yet every overzealous basketball fan wants to project a glimpse of talent into an NBA lottery pick.

I'm sorry that instead of being shouted down by the outspoken throng that I agree with a guy that played in college, won multiple titles in the NBA, was a successful NBA GM and now works in professional basketball. Incidentally David Stern also agrees and wants to up the minimum to 2 years of college or 20yrs.

 

[HeGotGame]

Should the age minimum be raised? Yes

Has it adversely affected a lot of kids? Yes

Has it adversely affected the college and pro game? Yes

Would every player who has left early be a better player and more or a winner if they stayed 4 years in college as you have stated? Absolutely not.

 

[msgordon]

Its a gamble, namely the draft is a gamble. The point is the likelihood of bust is higher with high school kids vs college because the sample size is greater for college and the maturity etc....

there have been 42 guys drafted out of HS.

garnett
lebron
kobe
TMac
jermaine oneal
dwight
rashard
al harrington
dawkins
chandler
amare
perkins
al jefferson
bynum
josh smith
jr smith
lou williams
monta
dorrell wright

thats 19 nba quality starters right there, many of them WELL above average, and then there are rotation guys like deshawn stevenson, travis outlaw, cj miles, martell webster, amir johnson. theres another 10 or so guys who didnt attend d1 but went undrafted including connie hawkins, moses, kemp, brandon jennings, stephen jackson..looks like a lot less of a gamble than your avg NBA draft to me

 

[Reno]

all youre doing is using a ridiculous amount of hindsight and using results to shape your arguments. darryl dawkins and shawn kemp were physical freaks who were NBA ready and had productive careers, but youre holding them to a higher standard because they came out of high school. you argue that only lebron dwight kobe KG were NBA ready out of high school...wow dude, certainly tough to say that now after theyre already multiple time first teamers. if gerald green were dunking on fools and dropping 25 a game right now youd probably be throwing him on that list. "some clown named jonathan bender"...as if you had any way to differentiate between Bender and KG before you had a chance to evaluate their NBA careers

Hey man, I'm sure Jonathan Bender wouldn't had knee problems and would have been a winner if he spent a few years in college.

 

[Reno]

I'm sorry that instead of being shouted down by the outspoken throng that I agree with a guy that played in college, won multiple titles in the NBA, was a successful NBA GM and now works in professional basketball. Incidentally David Stern also agrees and wants to up the minimum to 2 years of college or 20yrs.

You agree with two guys who are interested in protecting NBA management from themselves. Congrats!

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

http://deadspin.com/5908998/before-...-he-should-try-some-academic-research-himself

 

[Kitaman]

Wow isn't it just a matter that some kids are simply NBA ready. Not necessarily in statistics or experience but in size and talent. Outside of the NBA employers hire people based on their potential skills/talent and not experience.

No one has talked about college coaches and their offensive styles delaying or screwing up a players development. Going to the wrong college could be worse than going straight to the pros. Similarly the same if playing for the wrong teammates (ball hoggers) or teammates that are incompatible (can't get you the ball). That may be one of Andre and Jeremy's reasons and some others I suspect. Even though the college life is desirable if your future vocation is threatened in any way then a decision has to be made. Some stick it out in college, others bolt.

Lastly some players college/high school kids have a NBA style game more suitable for the pros than college. Sure money is in the equation but for some its a not too difficult decision. As for Rudy he could of felt that there may not have been much left behind after so many teammates went to the NBA. That alone is not a bad decision if it meant the remaining players were not going to further help his game as opposed to his new and better skilled teammates.

 

[Rico444]

I guess Anthony Davis needs to dominate the college game for a few more years before this guy will be happy.

 

[AJC88]

The reason people go to college is to prepare themselves to make more money is it not? I'd say guys signing multi-million dollar contracts is a successful college career, getting a degree or not. If a kid is ready physically to go to the league without college, why stop him?
I'm a fan of high school to pro, simply because not everyone is meant to go to college. NBA execs want more time in college not because they want well rounded players coming into the league, but because they want more time to evaluate players so they don't make a Kwame Brown type pick. (BTW, Kwame Brown is considered one of the biggest busts ever and the guy still makes like 7 mill if I remember correctly.)

 

[Dogdeacon]

The reason people go to college is to prepare themselves to make more money is it not? I'd say guys signing multi-million dollar contracts is a successful college career, getting a degree or not. If a kid is ready physically to go to the league without college, why stop him?
I'm a fan of high school to pro, simply because not everyone is meant to go to college. NBA execs want more time in college not because they want well rounded players coming into the league, but because they want more time to evaluate players so they don't make a Kwame Brown type pick. (BTW, Kwame Brown is considered one of the biggest busts ever and the guy still makes like 7 mill if I remember correctly.)

Why do fans/care about the money and think want it to be all about the money? You think Kwame Brown enjoyed his first 3 years in the NBA more than Hasheem Thabeet enjoyed his years at UConn. We don't know if Kwame Brown would have been a better pro if he'd gone to college, but he could hardly be worse. Thabeet wouldn't have been drafted nearly as high so although his time in college didn't help the NBA much, it certainly helped him from all standpoints, development, money and fulfillment. Again draft is guessing game so fine with sometimes 3-4 year players don't work out (Thabeet, Adam Morrison, Danny Ferry etc.., still there are way less of these and they occur less frequently than high school busts).

Money is not everything and particularly if important steps are skipped or short-cutted it can be a detriment to development. Look at the example of the Kwame Brown draft. Top 4 picks were Brown, Curry, Chandler and Gasol. Gasol had many prep type years playing pro in Espana and the other 3 underachieved. Even though Chandler has found his niche he is not the next KG as he was hyped to be coming out of high school. Re: Money - Ask Kemba Walker which basketball season he enjoyed more, the one where he was paid or the one where he won.

Each player and every draft pick is an individual evaluation and choice, so why its seems pretty clear that Anthony Davis* & Kidd-Gilchrist are NBA ready (I think so), its a decent bet that plenty of either the Kentucky guys or other 1 and doners underachieve initially in the NBA (Drummond) and possibly for their careers.

*Dear Renocaurus, its not an acceptable argument to project me saying something I've never said and then refute it to prove a point. I said nothing about Davis until this thread and have repeatedly said that the 2yr 20old policy works on a global basis but there will always be individual exceptions - its simply that BOTH games improve college (inarguably) and NBA (debateable) if players are kept out until they are 20. However, I will say Drummond isn't ready and Davis is. Care to wager that Davis will multiply Drummond's rookie year points and rebounding by more than he did in their frosh years in college?

 

[AJC88]

Why do fans/care about the money and think want it to be all about the money? You think Kwame Brown enjoyed his first 3 years in the NBA more than Hasheem Thabeet enjoyed his years at UConn. Money is not everything and particularly if important steps are skipped or short-cutted it can be a detriment to development. Look at the example of the Kwame Brown draft. Top 4 picks were Brown, Curry, Chandler and Gasol. Gasol had many prep type years playing pro in Espana and the other 3 underachieved. Even though Chandler has found his niche he is not the next KG as he was hyped to be coming out of high school. Re: Money - Ask Kemba Walker which basketball season he enjoyed more, the one where he was paid or the one where he won.

I never said which one they enjoy more. I think you can poll most NBA players and they'll say they had more fun in college than in the pros. The NBA is a job. My post was to make the point that if a guy wants to go make millions and thinks he's ready, then why stop him?
At the same time, if you don't think that players care about money and making it to the league, you're crazy. Most players view college as a stage to set them up to make it pro. Very few players on the UConn men's team, at least while I spent my time in Storrs, gave a crap about class (I'm using the fact that they never showed up as evidence).
Again, it goes back to my argument that college isn't for everyone, which is why I am in favor of HS to pro model. Why make college a joke? If you want to go to college to further your education, become a more well rounded person, improve your game, etc. then go. If you want to, and are able to, go from high school to the pros, then by all means, do it, and enjoy your pay day.

 

[Dogdeacon]

I never said which one they enjoy more. I think you can poll most NBA players and they'll say they had more fun in college than in the pros. The NBA is a job. My post was to make the point that if a guy wants to go make millions and thinks he's ready, then why stop him?
At the same time, if you don't think that players care about money and making it to the league, you're crazy. Most players view college as a stage to set them up to make it pro. Very few players on the UConn men's team, at least while I spent my time in Storrs, gave a crap about class (I'm using the fact that they never showed up as evidence).
Again, it goes back to my argument that college isn't for everyone, which is why I am in favor of HS to pro model. Why make college a joke? If you want to go to college to further your education, become a more well rounded person, improve your game, etc. then go. If you want to, and are able to, go from high school to the pros, then by all means, do it, and enjoy your pay day.

To a lesser extent, you did the same thing that Reno did. Where did I say that players do not care about money or making the NBA?! Part of what made Kemba's final year so great is he knew that he was earning himself a gold-plated NBA future even though he was being paid $0 at the time. In my previous post I purposefully chose the word 'paid' versus 'earning' because in reality guys like Kemba and Anthony Davis are in fact earning themselves millions via college basketball and the exposure it provides. Of course ALL major college basketball players want ot make the NBA, every kid on a little league field wants to play MLB. And who on earth doesn't want to earn millions ASAP?! Nonetheless against their wishes I think its better in the long-term for the league and MOST of them to stay in school for 2-3 years. Right now far and away college basketball is the best minor league system for the NBA with Europe a distant 2nd and the NBDL an even more distant 3rd. The only reason players might want 2-3 years in college is it would keep NBA vets around longer and it improves the overall quality of the NBA. But I'm certain the players union and most individuals would be against raising the age limit.

College is a 'joke' or at least a massive hyporcrisy regarding big-time sports, but that's a different conversation. I believe major college athletes should get paid, particularly the top guys, but coming up with a technique to do that while operating within the pretense of college and amateurism is too slippery a slope. Actually to tie it in, it would be interesting to project if requiring 2-3 years of college would hasten the ultimate demise of college basketball (helps in short-term, but athletes rebel as a LeBron James in college for 3yrs seems impossible, even though that is what Lew Alcindor was). But with football having no minor league that sport might be the entrenched enough at universities to keep college basketball intact.

 

[AJC88]

To a lesser extent, you did the same thing that Reno did. Where did I say that players do not care about money or making the NBA?! Part of what made Kemba's final year so great is he knew that he was earning himself a gold-plated NBA future even though he was being paid $0 at the time. In my previous post I purposefully chose the word 'paid' versus 'earning' because in reality guys like Kemba and Anthony Davis are in fact earning themselves millions via college basketball and the exposure it provides. Of course ALL major college basketball players want ot make the NBA, every kid on a little league field wants to play MLB. And who on earth doesn't want to earn millions ASAP?! Nonetheless against their wishes I think its better in the long-term for the league and MOST of them to stay in school for 2-3 years. Right now far and away college basketball is the best minor league system for the NBA with Europe a distant 2nd and the NBDL an even more distant 3rd. The only reason players might want 2-3 years in college is it would keep NBA vets around longer and it improves the overall quality of the NBA. But I'm certain the players union and most individuals would be against raising the age limit.

College is a 'joke' or at least a massive hyporcrisy regarding big-time sports, but that's a different conversation. I believe major college athletes should get paid, particularly the top guys, but coming up with a technique to do that while operating within the pretense of college and amateurism is too slippery a slope. Actually to tie it in, it would be interesting to project if requiring 2-3 years of college would hasten the ultimate demise of college basketball (helps in short-term, but athletes rebel as a LeBron James in college for 3yrs seems impossible, even though that is what Lew Alcindor was). But with football having no minor league that sport might be the entrenched enough at universities to keep college basketball intact.

I thought your initial response to my post was suggesting that players aren't concerned about money. I don't think anyone should be forced to go to college, regardless of whether or not it will help them, to pursue a career. I guess we just don't see eye to eye on this.

And to make it clear, I think that most players would benefit from waiting and maturing their game, but college shouldn't be the only route. College shouldn't be a minor league system, but in many ways that's what it's become. Someone said it before, why would the NBA spend money to make a minor league system when college already pretty much does that for them.

 

[Reno]

This guy is delusional. No sense in arguing with a person who thinks that people should be controlled and forced into situations that make him (not them) happy. I suppose that Gates, Jobs, and Zuckerberg should have been forced to stay in college longer as they weren't mature enough to succeed in the business world. It's not your place or anyone else's to tell someone how they should live their life.

If the NBA wants a guy then the guy should be able to play in the NBA. Age shouldn't be an issue.

If the NBA wants a minor league then they should develop a minor league. It shouldn't be the college game.

If the NBA doesn't think high school guys are ready then don't draft high school guys.

The current system doesn't benefit anyone except NBA management who get a free year of development, evaluation, and reduce their own chances of making a mistake in the draft and that's the only reason the system exists. For me, that's not a good enough reason to prevent someone from earning a living.

 

[Dogdeacon]

This guy is delusional. No sense in arguing with a person who thinks that people should be controlled and forced into situations that make him (not them) happy. I suppose that Gates, Jobs, and Zuckerberg should have been forced to stay in college longer as they weren't mature enough to succeed in the business world. It's not your place or anyone else's to tell someone how they should live their life.

If the NBA wants a guy then the guy should be able to play in the NBA. Age shouldn't be an issue.

If the NBA wants a minor league then they should develop a minor league. It shouldn't be the college game.

If the NBA doesn't think high school guys are ready then don't draft high school guys.

The current system doesn't benefit anyone except NBA management who get a free year of development, evaluation, and reduce their own chances of making a mistake in the draft and that's the only reason the system exists. For me, that's not a good enough reason to prevent someone from earning a living.

You are really slow, FOR THE SECOND AND LAST TIME you can't suggest I'd make arguments like Gates, Zuckerberg and then refute them to prove your bizarre assumptions. I'm not telling anyone to do anything or making them go to school, merely voicing my opinion. And guess what the NBA is doing exactly what I merely suggest (not 'tell someone how to live their life' - spare me the drama) because they have the 19yr old age limit and/or requirement to be 1yr post high school graduation. And the NFL does a similar thing.

Here's a simulated example of how inane your arguments are. Reno think's that talented young medical prodigies should not be required to get doctorates and licenses before they can practice medicine. Is he willing to insure these unlicensed doctors or let them operate on a loved one?

Current system absolutely benefitted Kentucy, John Calipari, Anthony Davis and Kidd-Gilchrist all of whom are infinitiely more popular and have much greater projected earnings as a result of the current system. Its debatable not delusional whether another year would rise all boats, but its delusional and not debatable to want to go back to the old drafting high schoolers system that was terminated because it didn't work. Do you think your message board posts will change it back? Maybe you should publish a rebuttal to Kerr's article?

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

There's a fairly extensive body of research on this topic. You should take a look at some of it, and I think you might be a little less strident in your blowhardiness after you do.