Drummond, Rudy Gay, etc.. should have stayed in college

[Dogdeacon]

I plan on cutting and pasting this story every time someone makes the argument that so-and-so should go pro. Pretty informed source believes that the college experience just might pay off in the long haul. Ray Allen used as an example.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7883540/steve-kerr-problems-age-limit-nba

 

[61cygni]

I think Rudy's doing just fine.

 

[HuskyBballFan]

Rudy Gay signed a max contract extension in 2010. He is being paid the maximum amount of money allowed under the previous collective bargaining agreement and he's a 20 point per game scorer on a playoff team. I'm not sure he's the best example of a guy who made a mistake.

 

[caw]

I can see the argument that the game would be better if the kids were more mature when they entered the league. I also see his point that college could be used to give some kids much needed maturity lessons. I disagree with the idea that Kobe, Garnett, Lebron and Howard would have been better served going to college. Perhaps they would have had a more immediate impact but I doubt their careers would have changed drastically (especially Kobe and Garnett).

 

[Dogdeacon]

Rudy Gay signed a max contract extension in 2010. He is being paid the maximum amount of money allowed under the previous collective bargaining agreement and he's a 20 point per game scorer on a playoff team. I'm not sure he's the best example of a guy who made a mistake.

If the goal is to simply make money, you are correct. But maybe the goal is to be the BEST possible player you can be and maybe the goal of playing games is to WIN them. So in addition to counting $, I ask how many playoff series has his team won?
Also see McGrady, Tracy - all time king of this & happens to be on the Hawks.

 

[HuskyBballFan]

If the goal is to simply make money, you are correct. But maybe the goal is to be the BEST possible player you can be and maybe the goal of playing games is to WIN them. So in addition to counting $, I ask how many playoff series has his team won?
Also see McGrady, Tracy - all time king of this & happens to be on the Hawks.

And how many playoff series did Kevin Garnett win before he was traded to a team with two other Hall of Famers?

If you can criticize Rudy for not winning a playoff series with the Grizzlies, maybe you can also give him credit for the fact that the Grizzlies went from winning 26% of their games in Rudy's rookie year to 62% of their games this year.

 

[Uconn93]

I plan on cutting and pasting this story every time someone makes the argument that so-and-so should go pro. Pretty informed source believes that the college experience just might pay off in the long haul. Ray Allen used as an example.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7883540/steve-kerr-problems-age-limit-nba

The funny thing about Rudy is that he is a much better pro then he was a college player. He's always been crazy athletic, but in college, he had a tendency to stand around and watch and very rarely took over a game like Ray or Rip or Kemba. There were times that Rudy would get his points, but he did so quietly. I'll be honest, I never expected Rudy to play at the level he has in the NBA. I look at Lamb the same way. Although he got his points, he stood around and watched alot. At times he was completely dependent on the point guard to get him the ball where he needed it rather then taking over the game and finding or creating his shot. For that reason, I have my doubts about Lamb getting a second contract in the NBA. I hope Lamb proves me wrong, just like Rudy did.

 

[HeGotGame]

If the goal is to simply make money, you are correct. But maybe the goal is to be the BEST possible player you can be and maybe the goal of playing games is to WIN them. So in addition to counting $, I ask how many playoff series has his team won?
Also see McGrady, Tracy - all time king of this & happens to be on the Hawks.

How about Kobe? Think he would have 7 rings instead of 5?

Would a year in college make him a top 5 player of all time instead of top 10?

2 one and dones, Durant and Westbrook, have single handily turned around a franchise making them one of the best teams in the league.

The comparing of rookie stats is silly, generally a 22 year old will have a better rookie season then an 18 year old. Channing Fyre was 1st team all-rookie, the same year Bynum was sitting on the pine, but who would you rather have on your team? The HS kid or the 4 year college player?

Sheldon Williams played 4 years at Duke, in that same draft, Lamarcus Aldridge played 1 year at Texas. Do you think Shelden would give up those three years at Duke to have the NBA career Aldridge is having?

Obviously players who stayed 4 years in college will come into the league more mature and maybe more financial responsible, but I do not think it has much bearing on your career. At the end of the day it comes down to whether you can play or you cant.

 

[caw]

How about Kobe? Think he would have 7 rings instead of 5?

Would a year in college make him a top 5 player of all time instead of top 10?

2 one and dones, Durant and Westbrook, have single handily turned around a franchise making them one of the best teams in the league.

The comparing of rookie stats is silly, generally a 22 year old will have a better rookie season then an 18 year old. Channing Fyre was 1st team all-rookie, the same year Bynum was sitting on the pine, but who would you rather have on your team? The HS kid or the 4 year college player?

Sheldon Williams played 4 years at Duke, in that same draft, Lamarcus Aldridge played 1 year at Texas. Do you think Shelden would give up those three years at Duke to have the NBA career Aldridge is having?

Obviously players who stayed 4 years in college will come into the league more mature and maybe more financial responsible, but I do not think it has much bearing on your career. At the end of the day it comes down to whether you can play or you cant.

The argument makes sense from a business perspective (owner side) but not from a player perspective.

 

[aceboon]

The funny thing about Rudy is that he is a much better pro then he was a college player. He's always been crazy athletic, but in college, he had a tendency to stand around and watch and very rarely took over a game like Ray or Rip or Kemba. There were times that Rudy would get his points, but he did so quietly. I'll be honest, I never expected Rudy to play at the level he has in the NBA. I look at Lamb the same way. Although he got his points, he stood around and watched alot. At times he was completely dependent on the point guard to get him the ball where he needed it rather then taking over the game and finding or creating his shot. For that reason, I have my doubts about Lamb getting a second contract in the NBA. I hope Lamb proves me wrong, just like Rudy did.

I don't understand this sentiment that you guys have, and you're not the only one who has posted this. You guys really think Jeremy is going to be out of the league in 4 years without another contract? SG is the 2nd weakest position in the NBA after C, it is not going to be that hard for him to stick around in the league even if he doesn't become at least an above average pro.

 

[Dogdeacon]

And how many playoff series did Kevin Garnett win before he was traded to a team with two other Hall of Famers?

If you can criticize Rudy for not winning a playoff series with the Grizzlies, maybe you can also give him credit for the fact that the Grizzlies went from winning 26% of their games in Rudy's rookie year to 62% of their games this year.

Uh, you are missing the point - Kevin Garnett didn't go to college at all. He is one of top 10 physical talents of the last 15yrs, Garnett, Kobe, Dwight Howard and LeBron to me are the only guys in modern annals that didn't need 2+yrs of college and even then other than Kobe none of those guys are winners like Bird, Michael & Magic were. Rudy Gay would be a better player and leader if he'd returned for one more year at UConn, I consider that an undeniable fact and at the end of his career the total $ will be inconsequential and could be made up by one correct stock pick.

I agree (with caw) the 20yr requirement makes the most sense from an owner's and league's business perspective, and there are merits to both sides of the argument from a player's perspective. Its just that most of the player rationale comes down to $ and I honestly don't understand why that matters to fans and why fans take up that side of the argument?!

To me it is very simple, I would prefer to see the best college basketball possible and the best pro basketball possible and THAT happens if kids stay in college longer.

 

[aceboon]

An "undeniable fact"? What scientific data do you have to back that up? I hope you have something more than "...read the interview with Kerr..."

 

[HuskyBballFan]

Uh, you are missing the point - Kevin Garnett didn't go to college at all. He is one of top 10 physical talents of the last 15yrs, Garnett, Kobe, Dwight Howard and LeBron to me are the only guys in modern annals that didn't need 2+yrs of college and even then other than Kobe none of those guys are winners like Bird, Michael & Magic were. Rudy Gay would be a better player and leader if he'd returned for one more year at UConn, I consider that an undeniable fact and at the end of his career the total $ will be inconsequential and could be made up by one correct stock pick.

I agree (with caw) the 20yr requirement makes the most sense from an owner's and league's business perspective, and there are merits to both sides of the argument from a player's perspective. Its just that most of the player rationale comes down to $ and I honestly don't understand why that matters to fans and why fans take up that side of the argument?!

To me it is very simple, I would prefer to see the best college basketball possible and the best pro basketball possible and THAT happens if kids stay in college longer.

First, I am aware that Kevin Garnett didn't go to college. My point is that it's hard to criticize players for not leading traditionally awful teams to playoff success. Most players, regardless of how many years they spend in college, don't have much playoff success until they are teamed up with other great players.

Secondly, how can it be an "undeniable fact" that Rudy would be a better player today if he stayed in college. This is 100% speculation, there's nothing undeniable or factual about it.

Finally, of course college basketball fans would prefer that these players stay in college - but nobody cares what we think. These are decisions that, obviously, impact the players themselves more than anybody else - so to ignore the financial implications when having this discussion is just stupid. Like it or not, it matters more than anything else.

 

[Dogdeacon]

First, I am aware that Kevin Garnett didn't go to college. My point is that it's hard to criticize players for not leading traditionally awful teams to playoff success. Most players, regardless of how many years they spend in college, don't have much playoff success until they are teamed up with other great players.

Secondly, how can it be an "undeniable fact" that Rudy would be a better player today if he stayed in college. This is 100% speculation, there's nothing undeniable or factual about it.

Finally, of course college basketball fans would prefer that these players stay in college - but nobody cares what we think. These are decisions that, obviously, impact the players themselves more than anybody else - so to ignore the financial implications when having this discussion is just stupid. Like it or not, it matters more than anything else.

I said that "I consider it an undeniable fact", so it is really just a very strong opinion that I have.
Why:
I know (fair or not) the consensus among UConn fans is Rudy Gay's UConn career was mildly disappointing because we only saw flashes of brilliance. So its reasonable to conclude he would have absolutely dominated if he came back for 1 more year particularly given his NBA success. And I believe that succeeding at one level helps immeasurably towards succeeding at the next level. So again for ME it is very reasonable to conclude he'd be a better player today. But I understand that even though these are very reasonable and supportable assumptions it is not based on actual events.

 

[progrocks]

If going to college is essential for elite athletic development why have ZERO of the best soccer players in the world gone to college? Training in a full time professional setting is a much better way to become a star athlete than having to go to school. The problem is that too often there is not a lot of teaching being done in the professional setting these day, because there is a lack of incentive to do so. In Europe, if you make a player a star you can sell his rights for millions of dollars, the same incentives do not exist here.

 

[caw]

If going to college is essential for elite athletic development why have ZERO of the best soccer players in the world gone to college? Training in a full time professional setting is a much better way to become a star athlete than having to go to school. The problem is that too often there is not a lot of teaching being done in the professional setting these day, because there is a lack of incentive to do so. In Europe, if you make a player a star you can sell his rights for millions of dollars, the same incentives do not exist here.

Yes, but how many went through a developmental league before they were star soccer players. Ideally the D-league would be this, but for some reason, it really hasn't happened that way, plus those players are still on NBA contracts, where young soccer players are usually not on pro contracts right away.

I know you said best in the world, but Clint Dempsey just finished 4th in voting for Footballer of the Year in England. He went to college. I don't consider him the best in the world, but just giving him some credit.

 

[progrocks]

Dempsey is not one of the 50 best players in the world, and it has been a long time since he has been in college, and just now he has hit his peak as a player.

The play in a professional designed youth system before they become professionals, and even then they play on B teams weekly so their development contains plenty of game time, not just practice time. What the NBA would need to do is instead of the NBADL, they would have to expand the NBA rosters to 25 players, and have the back end be a D league with a regular schedule.

With how it is structured, I understand throwing a player into the league may not always be a good thing, but there is a better system that can create better basketball out there, they just dont want to pay for it. free labor and some level of development from college is seen as a better fit.

 

[Reno]

Steve Kerr's arguments are really bad. It seems he's more concerned with protecting teams and dumb GMs than protecting the 18 year old kids. The fact is the age limit benefits the league, GMs, and aging vets and that's about it. It's eviscerated the college game and turned it into a glorified minor league. It prevents these players from earning a living when people would line up to sign them to million dollar contracts. It literally only helps the rich stay richer.

 

[Reno]

Uh, you are missing the point - Kevin Garnett didn't go to college at all. He is one of top 10 physical talents of the last 15yrs, Garnett, Kobe, Dwight Howard and LeBron to me are the only guys in modern annals that didn't need 2+yrs of college and even then other than Kobe none of those guys are winners like Bird, Michael & Magic were.

Is this a serious thought? This is like comparing Babe Ruth to Barry Bonds. The eras are so different that it's basically pointless. You ignore that players rarely went pro out of high school then so it wasn't considered a viable option (Jordan and Magic surely would have considered it right away otherwise) or the fact that these "winners" were on loaded teams that more or less are impossible in to maintain in the salary cap era. The idea that staying in college 2 or 3 years turned Magic or Jordan into "winners" is hilarious.

 

[caw]

Dempsey is not one of the 50 best players in the world, and it has been a long time since he has been in college, and just now he has hit his peak as a player.

The play in a professional designed youth system before they become professionals, and even then they play on B teams weekly so their development contains plenty of game time, not just practice time. What the NBA would need to do is instead of the NBADL, they would have to expand the NBA rosters to 25 players, and have the back end be a D league with a regular schedule.

With how it is structured, I understand throwing a player into the league may not always be a good thing, but there is a better system that can create better basketball out there, they just dont want to pay for it. free labor and some level of development from college is seen as a better fit.

Enough writers in England think he was good enough to be voted as Footballer of the Year in England for his play this year in the Premier League (which is a top 2 league in the world) that he came in 4th in voting.

I don't know how you would rank players in soccer, considering it's even more subjective than basketball (due to the variety of positions and lack of meaningful statistics for a variety of positions) and there are vastly more pro soccer players at a high level. I don't necessarily disagree that he isn't a top 50 player. Taking out keepers, that would mean he was, likely, top 5 in the world at his position if he was a top 50 player.

I'm not sure where he is without watching him on a top 10 club. If you were to ask if he was a top 50 player in the EPL, then the answer is yes, and likely much higher.

In the end though, the point was he went to college and I think he is good enough to be mentioned. I was pretty clear in stating he was not the best player.

I mostly agree with everything else, though Soccer and Basketball are very hard to relate to each other in terms of development. I think it comes down to where the best coaches for development are for that sport. In basketball it is college, not the NBDL. In soccer it is at those feeder clubs.

 

[Reno]

I'm not sure what college soccer has to do with this argument. I'm a huge soccer fan, but college basketball's resources are so far beyond college soccer's that any comparison is just foolish.

 

[Dogdeacon]

Is this a serious thought? This is like comparing Babe Ruth to Barry Bonds. The eras are so different that it's basically pointless. You ignore that players rarely went pro out of high school then so it wasn't considered a viable option (Jordan and Magic surely would have considered it right away otherwise) or the fact that these "winners" were on loaded teams that more or less are impossible in to maintain in the salary cap era. The idea that staying in college 2 or 3 years turned Magic or Jordan into "winners" is hilarious.

Yep, 10-15 years difference for players that crossed paths in the NBA is exactly like comparing baseball in the early 1920's to baseball in the 90's especially because the talent pools of the leagues changed similarly and Barry Bonds 2nd iteration was fueled by steroids. Wait, actually they are nothing alike.

Pre-Bird/Magic era, Moses Malone never went to college and was very successful however Darryl Dawkins and Sean Kemp did not and very arguably underacheived in terms of their careers and didn't win any championships. Kemp's Sonics did make the finals once but they lost to Jordan's Bulls who won solely because Jordan played 3 years in college

Michael Jordan became who he was because he did not skip any steps. He was NOT annointed a superstar while still in high school like LeBron James was and by the time Jordan got to the NBA he was a much more polished product. He wasn't even the #1 pick (3) after 3 years of college so why would anyone ever imagine that he could have gone pro out of high school?! And even then it took Jordan quite a few years for him to hone his game and for the Bulls to put together championship pieces (even though in the 84 Olympics Jordan demonstrated that his talent was all NBA ready). So part of the non-basketball talent argument is that LeBron James doesn't put on the stupid "decision" event if he'd gone to college and Dwight Howard doesn't spend 2yrs vascilating over what he wants to do and where he wants to play. Basketball wise maybe each of them would have more post-moves and LeBron would have learned to close games at an intermediate level giving him confidence to do it in the NBA. LeBron is great, but part of the frustration with him and his otherworldly skillset is he really should be winning multiple championships and thus far he's not. I'm rooting for Durant just cuz he has at least one year of college.

 

[Uconn93]

I don't understand this sentiment that you guys have, and you're not the only one who has posted this. You guys really think Jeremy is going to be out of the league in 4 years without another contract? SG is the 2nd weakest position in the NBA after C, it is not going to be that hard for him to stick around in the league even if he doesn't become at least an above average pro.

If Lamb plays the same way that he played most of the time in college......standing around an watching and waiting for the PG to get him the ball, I don't think he gets the second contract. If he learns how to move without the ball and create off the dribble, he will be fine. Needless to say, I think these are two skills that he should have demonstrated at the college level first

 

[caw]

If Lamb plays the same way that he played most of the time in college......standing around an watching and waiting for the PG to get him the ball, I don't think he gets the second contract. If he learns how to move without the ball and create off the dribble, he will be fine. Needless to say, I think these are two skills that he should have demonstrated at the college level first

He moves off the ball fairly well, better than most coming into the NBA.

 

[HuskyBballFan]

If Lamb plays the same way that he played most of the time in college......standing around an watching and waiting for the PG to get him the ball, I don't think he gets the second contract. If he learns how to move without the ball and create off the dribble, he will be fine. Needless to say, I think these are two skills that he should have demonstrated at the college level first

They have coaches in the pros too. Players don't stop improving once they enter the NBA.